MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

[Rakesh]

Heh. The su57 lobby isn't that weak after all.

Some additional info ---> viewtopic.php?p=2663227#p2663227

[Manish_P]

AM A.P. Singh should go to that defence ministry department with a few Garuds and beat every one there with steel TMT bars. With that A.P. Singh's career will be over...but then so will be this MRCA Saga also!

Not really. Only the AMs career will be over. And this thread

And then promptly a new thread will need to be created -
"MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode IV"

[Rakesh]

India’s defence acquisition framework is designed to prevent wrongdoing, not deliver outcomes
https://theprint.in/opinion/indias-defe ... s/2774324/
31 Oct 2025

Vivek Rae committee highlighted the deficiencies that persist even today: Fragmented authority, weak accountability, and the absence of dedicated acquisition cadres.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1985732457472360485 ----> Manned aircrafts (fighters) are not going away & will stay for the foreseeable future: IAF Chief

======================================

Translation of the above:-

1) I need my 114 Rafales at all cost. We need mission ready aircraft. Rafale is a game-changer.

2) When it comes time to order desi maal, unmanned aircraft (or better variants) are a more attractive option.

IAF Chief Wants LCA Tejas Mk1A Orders Moved to Mk2
https://bharatshakti.in/iaf-chief-wants ... ed-to-mk2/
04 Oct 2025

Get ready for when it comes time to sign the order for the Tejas Mk2, the Air Chief (of that day) will say that this Mk2 order should actually go towards the AMCA. Same story will be done with AMCA as well. Basically, rinse & repeat this cycle for eternity.

Kuch Bhi Karo, Magar Import Hamesha #1

[bala]

What happened to "We will fight with what we have" concept?

[Rakesh]

Russian team submits report, says HAL already possess 50% capacity to produce Su-57 stealth fighters at home
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ne ... 240773.ece
04 Nov 2025

HAL is now putting together its own assessment outlining the investment required in infra, advanced technologies, R&D, human resources, and supply chain development to enable full-scale production of the Su-57E, say sources

[Manish_P]

Russian team submits report, says HAL already possess 50% capacity to produce Su-57 stealth fighters at home
...

The good - we can do 50% of the Su 57 in house
The bad - we can do 50% of the Su 57 in house
The ugly - the AMCA will probably be able to do more than 50% of what the Su 57 can.

[V_Raman]

Honestly, AMCA is a paper plane at this point. We have not even delivered Mk1A and then we have Mk2. I dont know if IAF has the time to wait for AMCA which seems like unobtainium at this point even with funding.

[Rakesh]

1) Air HQ definitely wants more Rafales, especially after its performance during Op Sindoor. But any large scale purchase (i.e. 114) of the Rafale is risky politically, due to the scandal drummed up by the opposition in the first Rafale deal of 36 aircraft. And without HAL's involvement (reportedly the deal might go to a private firm for assembly) will give a lot of political capital to the opposition. Remember the charge leveled by the opposition - NaMo "stole" jobs from HAL and gave it to Anil Ambani

2) Su-57 to be assembled at HAL will drown out that opposition, if the order book is large enough. Keep HAL busy with Su-57 assembly and the Super Sukhoi upgrade. But a large order of the Su-57 will kill the Rafale deal of 114 aircraft, which is what Air HQ wants. Highly unlikely that the GOI will go in for 114 Rafales + a triple digit order (or even a number close to 100) of Su-57s.

The GOI has a tough choice to make.

[Cain Marko]

1) Air HQ definitely wants more Rafales, especially after its performance during Op Sindoor. But any large scale purchase (i.e. 114) of the Rafale is risky politically, due to the scandal drummed up by the opposition in the first Rafale deal of 36 aircraft. And without HAL's involvement (reportedly the deal might go to a private firm for assembly) will give a lot of political capital to the opposition. Remember the charge leveled by the opposition - NaMo "stole" jobs from HAL and gave it to Anil Ambani

2) Su-57 to be assembled at HAL will drown out that opposition, if the order book is large enough. Keep HAL busy with Su-57 assembly and the Super Sukhoi upgrade. But a large order of the Su-57 will kill the Rafale deal of 114 aircraft, which is what Air HQ wants. Highly unlikely that the GOI will go in for 114 Rafales + a triple digit order (or even a number close to 100) of Su-57s.

The GOI has a tough choice to make.

It will do what it's hoary and distinguished predecessors did, buy 60 each with options for more and local servicing. Or actually buy more su57 for local assembly and maybe 36 more take in fly away condition with local maintenance options.

Everyone is happy that way:
Import lobby
IAF
France
Russia
MoD
MEA

Sabka sath sabka Vikas. The most teleologically sound decision.

[ashthor]

It will do what it's hoary and distinguished predecessors did, buy 60 each with options for more and local servicing. Or actually buy more su57 for local assembly and maybe 36 more take in fly away condition with local maintenance options.

Everyone is happy that way:
Import lobby
IAF
France
Russia
MOD
MEA

Sabka Sath, Sabka Vikas. The most teleologically sound decision.

A few 35's from Unkil for the tariff reduction a few Tornado from Germany to ask them to move some factories here....all happy.
Event the spectator at aero india can enjoy UN aircraft display.

[S_Madhukar]

IAF is just 1 step away from Saudi AF diversification strategy… they diversify their pilots too by employing Bakis!
Anyway Sukhoi, Rafale are all for branding. Real work will be done by end of line Mirages, Mig29 and Jags. Tejas will be 12th man for carrying drinks only

[Mollick.R]

A few 35's from Unkil for the tariff reduction a few Tornado from Germany to ask them to move some factories here....all happy.
Event the spectator at aero india can enjoy UN aircraft display.

This also ensures Visa stamps on passport all such countries for IAF personnel ..........
Trainings/ Purchasing spares/ chai biscuit meetings ityadi ityadi

[Manish_P]

A few 35's from Unkil for the tariff reduction a few Tornado from Germany to ask them to move some factories here....all happy.
Event the spectator at aero india can enjoy UN aircraft display.

Tornado? You mean the Typhoon right

If we have to keep the Germans happy i rather we go with their submarines

A pity they are not a turbofan engine power like the US, the british or the french

[Rakesh]

1) The main sticking point with the Rafale is the access to the source codes or mission computer or whatever name it goes by. Dassault and MBDA will not relent on that, because that will stop the money flow into their coffers. Indian munitions (Rudram, Astra Mk2, SFDR, BrahMos-NG etc) will obviously be cheaper than their French counterparts (Hammer, Meteor, Mica, SCALP, etc). But the MoD will not permit a large deal of 114 aircraft to be sanctioned without some level of source code access. At $25+ billion, there has to be some return on value beyond just mere assembly in India. Both sides will have to come to a middle ground somewhere i.e. perhaps permit source code access, but only for Indian users - i.e. IAF and IN - and not international users (Greece is interested in Astra Mk2 for their Rafale fleet) OR allow access for a select set of Indian weaponry OR some other solution.

2) Here is where the Su-57 becomes much more attractive, as going by the Su-30MKI which is the platform of choice to test and validate Indian weaponry. But the Russians are also playing hardball. Reportedly they do not want to accede to India's request to swap out the Russian AESA (N036 Byelka) with the DARE's Uttam Mk2 AESA. To comply with such a request would indicate to other prospective international customers that the Byelka is not up to standards and is subpar. But at this stage, if the Su-57 has to fly in IAF colours...then it must come with Indian sensors and weaponry. That IMVHO is non-negotiable and would be a better investment versus the Rafale, if the Russians agree. The AL-51 (izdeliye 30) is also a must-have aboard any Su-57 for India. The Russians could be likely be more malleable than the French, but the details matter.

So will have to wait and see how this is going play out. But the main takeaway is that India must be able to integrate her home-grown weaponry aboard - via source code access OR an Indian radar - with whatever aircraft (Rafale or Su-57) is chosen as the MRFA.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ValkStrategy/status/1986143605262524428 ---> A three-star USAF force strategist just threw the whole fifth-generation nonsense under the bus in a video brief to International Fighter Conference #IFC25 in Rome. “That nomenclature doesn’t really help us any more,” he said, arguing that advanced weapons and EW on an F-15EX give it “capabilities more akin to 5 gen”

https://x.com/ValkStrategy/status/1986144630207901975 ---> Which of course is exactly the point that Saab and Dassault and Eurofighter have been making for years (as I have too). That stealth is great but in the end it’s a way to carry out the mission and it’s difficult and expensive.

https://x.com/ValkStrategy/status/1986146459503185980 ---> At the same time, the officer said that the USAF was raising its F-15EX program of record goal to 130 aircraft “with room for more” and although the service had cut its FY26 F-35 order “we are eager to buy more Block 4 upgrades as soon as they are available.”

[Rakesh]

^^^

...

https://x.com/joe_sameer/status/1986441013288988683 ---> @IAF_MCC has similar views as the USAF's focus on advanced capabilities on 4.5 Gen to take on the scaling PLAAF's 5th Gen combat fleet, eyeing Rafale Block 4 jets for future squadrons which will augment any future 5th Gen induction.

[Rakesh]

Russian team submits report, says HAL already possess 50% capacity to produce Su-57 stealth fighters at home
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ne ... 240773.ece
04 Nov 2025

Can HAL make Russian fifth-generation fighter Sukhoi Su-57 in India? Here's what experts observed
https://www.theweek.in/news/defence/202 ... erved.html
06 Nov 2025

[drnayar]

Russian team submits report, says HAL already possess 50% capacity to produce Su-57 stealth fighters at home
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ne ... 240773.ece
04 Nov 2025

Can HAL make Russian fifth-generation fighter Sukhoi Su-57 in India? Here's what experts observed
https://www.theweek.in/news/defence/202 ... erved.html
06 Nov 2025

rich, esp coming from the Russians when they refused to share the tech when India was a "partner" country in the Su-57's development.. it was all money from India's side and no "sharing tech".

make no mistake, I like Russia but they have changed in the way they shared tech.

also IAF's previous chiefs are on record saying the tech of Russian planes are a decade behind, so not sure what changed now.

off note the frontal RCS of Rafale is same as less than the Su-57..so much for stealth.