Project 75I - It Begins

[Prem Kumar]

The Govt, if it has clarity & cojones, will pull up the IN and tell them in no unclear terms that the P-75I is dead. A "whole of country effort" will be set in motion, starting now, to accelerate the development of homegrown SSK (Project 76)

For just the cost of one P-75I boat, the entire R&D for P-76 can be funded! If more money is needed, so be it. We can afford it & it stimulates our own economy

The deadline must remain the same - the first P-76 hits the water in 7 years, with progressively better boats every year after that. A healthy run of say 15 or more SSKs must be committed

Its a shame if we cannot pull this off, but call ourselves an emerging superpower

[Rakesh]

X-Post from the International Naval News & Discussion thread...

https://x.com/pati_marins64/status/1996 ... 43651?s=20 ---> Japan has just rendered an entire generation of conventional submarines obsolete, and the world hasn’t fully realized it yet. With the Taigei class and its lithium-ion batteries, Tokyo already set a new benchmark: up to three weeks submerged without ever raising a snorkel. That, however, was merely the opening act. Today, Toyota and Panasonic are leading the global race in solid-state batteries, with prototypes arriving in 2027–2028, mass production after 2030, and Japan’s next submarine class will be the first to use them, either in pure battery form or as a hybrid with a small reactor for onboard recharging. This hybrid would be similar to what the Chineses are developing. The leap is staggering.

A 4,000 ton conventional submarine will patrol for 40 to 60 days without surfacing, sprint well above 20 knots for hours on end, and do it all more quietly than many nuclear subs, thanks to being significantly lighter and running solely on battery power. Solid-state cells weigh roughly one-third as much, generate 40 % less heat, and eliminate half the cooling systems. The result is a faster, stealthier hull that can travel thousands of kilometers without ever breaking the surface. Those hundreds of saved tons translate directly into more powerful electric motors, extra torpedoes and missiles, cutting-edge sensors, or greater crew comfort. The same hull now carries twice the energy or twice the weapons. It means that by 2035–2040, Japan will field conventional submarines with the endurance and sprint performance of today’s 8,000-ton nuclear boats, at one-third the cost and without the political baggage of uranium.

https://x.com/pati_marins64/status/1996 ... 25331?s=20 ---> The new German submarine costs three times as much as its latest-generation Japanese counterpart. The Japanese Taigei-class submarines, which I’ve mentioned in recent days and which are possibly the quietest in the world, have a production cost of around $460 million per unit in the 2023–2025 contracts. By comparison, the new German Type 212CD, widely regarded as one of the best conventional submarines on the planet, costs approximately $1.35 billion per boat. That’s almost three times the price of the Japanese submarine, which is also considered among the very best in the world. I’ve already pointed out the massive overpricing of German 4×4 vehicles, 30-35mm calibre ammunition, large-calibre ammunition, and now submarines.

Something is very wrong with the German defence industry. Efficiency and value for money seem to be completely foreign concepts to some relations between the defense companies and government. How much longer will it take before the Bundestag finally launches a serious investigation into these acquisitions?

[SRajesh]

^^* this and the anticipated increased defence spending has spooked China??

[fanne]

at this price we can get a nuclear sub, why not then?

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/pati_marins64/status/1996 ... 25331?s=20 ---> The new German submarine costs three times as much as its latest-generation Japanese counterpart. The Japanese Taigei-class submarines, which I’ve mentioned in recent days and which are possibly the quietest in the world, have a production cost of around $460 million per unit in the 2023–2025 contracts. By comparison, the new German Type 212CD, widely regarded as one of the best conventional submarines on the planet, costs approximately $1.35 billion per boat. That’s almost three times the price of the Japanese submarine, which is also considered among the very best in the world. I’ve already pointed out the massive overpricing of German 4×4 vehicles, 30-35mm calibre ammunition, large-calibre ammunition, and now submarines.

Something is very wrong with the German defence industry. Efficiency and value for money seem to be completely foreign concepts to some relations between the defense companies and government. How much longer will it take before the Bundestag finally launches a serious investigation into these acquisitions?

https://x.com/pati_marins64/status/1996 ... 27990?s=20 --->The Type 212CD is straight-up highway robbery, yet it remains the most advanced conventional submarine in existence today. The problem is: it simply cannot cost THIS much.

This entire industry has completely forgotten the lessons of World War II. German tanks were technically superior in almost every way, yet they were buried under an avalanche of Soviet T-34s and American Shermans tanks that cost less than half as much and were churned out at triple the production rate. That war proved, once and for all, that in a prolonged attrition conflict, quantity and low unit cost are what win, not exquisite engineering alone. A weapon has to be excellent, yes, but above all it has to be cheap enough to be produced in massive numbers and replaced the day after it’s lost.

Beyond the battery revolution that is already underway, we are on the cusp of a second, even more brutal underwater revolution: swarms of fully autonomous AI-armed UUVs whose sole mission is to hunt, track and kill submarines. Dozens, hundreds of these drones will saturate the operating area, surfacing briefly to receive updated orders and transmit targeting data, then diving again to relentlessly stalk their prey. What FPV drones are currently doing to multi-million-dollar tanks on land will be replicated under the sea by cheap, expendable, fully autonomous killers operating in the dark depths. When we invest billions in a platform, we have to war-game its obsolescence curve through the eyes of our adversaries over the next 10–15 years, not just admire the brochure.

The German defence industry is addicted to gold-plating. The products are magnificent, no question. But the costs are so obscene they annihilate every single advantage they claim to offer.

[Rakesh]

Six Project 75AS (Advanced Scorpenes) boats + upgrade the first six Scorpene (Kalvari Class) boats. And then followed by Project 76 (6 + 6 build program) and partner with the Japanese on lithium battery tech if required. What is the point of the Type 212CD?

[Anoop]

In an interview with Sandeep Unnithan, V. Adm Thakare mentions how MDL now needs to switch to the old welding process for HY80 steel for the German submarines from the HLES 80 steel used for the Scorpenes. Apparently the two steels have different requirements related to their work-over characteristics. I suspect that delay in retooling is one reason for the lack of enthusiasm for the 3 additional Scorpenes as part of P-75I and instead to go all in for the German subs. Committing to one line allows the retooling process to start earlier.

[bala]

One other thing mentioned by V. Adm Thakare is about Scorpene subs and the need to get 6 more. When India wanted to add 6 more and keep HLES 80 line open, the French increased the price a lot on scorpene. This just shows how bad contracts are created initially and how 1 exam wonder babus fail in rudimentary stuff. When a contract is made they should have indicated say 18 subs initially, with option to extend after each 6 subs or terminate, price remaining more or less the same (or some agreed inflation number). They need to think about alternates and how to deal with them contractually. Foreign suppliers start playing all kinds of games - periscope was another such issue.