Project 75I - It Begins

[Prem Kumar]

The Govt, if it has clarity & cojones, will pull up the IN and tell them in no unclear terms that the P-75I is dead. A "whole of country effort" will be set in motion, starting now, to accelerate the development of homegrown SSK (Project 76)

For just the cost of one P-75I boat, the entire R&D for P-76 can be funded! If more money is needed, so be it. We can afford it & it stimulates our own economy

The deadline must remain the same - the first P-76 hits the water in 7 years, with progressively better boats every year after that. A healthy run of say 15 or more SSKs must be committed

Its a shame if we cannot pull this off, but call ourselves an emerging superpower

[Rakesh]

X-Post from the International Naval News & Discussion thread...

https://x.com/pati_marins64/status/1996 ... 43651?s=20 ---> Japan has just rendered an entire generation of conventional submarines obsolete, and the world hasn’t fully realized it yet. With the Taigei class and its lithium-ion batteries, Tokyo already set a new benchmark: up to three weeks submerged without ever raising a snorkel. That, however, was merely the opening act. Today, Toyota and Panasonic are leading the global race in solid-state batteries, with prototypes arriving in 2027–2028, mass production after 2030, and Japan’s next submarine class will be the first to use them, either in pure battery form or as a hybrid with a small reactor for onboard recharging. This hybrid would be similar to what the Chineses are developing. The leap is staggering.

A 4,000 ton conventional submarine will patrol for 40 to 60 days without surfacing, sprint well above 20 knots for hours on end, and do it all more quietly than many nuclear subs, thanks to being significantly lighter and running solely on battery power. Solid-state cells weigh roughly one-third as much, generate 40 % less heat, and eliminate half the cooling systems. The result is a faster, stealthier hull that can travel thousands of kilometers without ever breaking the surface. Those hundreds of saved tons translate directly into more powerful electric motors, extra torpedoes and missiles, cutting-edge sensors, or greater crew comfort. The same hull now carries twice the energy or twice the weapons. It means that by 2035–2040, Japan will field conventional submarines with the endurance and sprint performance of today’s 8,000-ton nuclear boats, at one-third the cost and without the political baggage of uranium.

https://x.com/pati_marins64/status/1996 ... 25331?s=20 ---> The new German submarine costs three times as much as its latest-generation Japanese counterpart. The Japanese Taigei-class submarines, which I’ve mentioned in recent days and which are possibly the quietest in the world, have a production cost of around $460 million per unit in the 2023–2025 contracts. By comparison, the new German Type 212CD, widely regarded as one of the best conventional submarines on the planet, costs approximately $1.35 billion per boat. That’s almost three times the price of the Japanese submarine, which is also considered among the very best in the world. I’ve already pointed out the massive overpricing of German 4×4 vehicles, 30-35mm calibre ammunition, large-calibre ammunition, and now submarines.

Something is very wrong with the German defence industry. Efficiency and value for money seem to be completely foreign concepts to some relations between the defense companies and government. How much longer will it take before the Bundestag finally launches a serious investigation into these acquisitions?

[SRajesh]

^^* this and the anticipated increased defence spending has spooked China??

[fanne]

at this price we can get a nuclear sub, why not then?

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/pati_marins64/status/1996 ... 25331?s=20 ---> The new German submarine costs three times as much as its latest-generation Japanese counterpart. The Japanese Taigei-class submarines, which I’ve mentioned in recent days and which are possibly the quietest in the world, have a production cost of around $460 million per unit in the 2023–2025 contracts. By comparison, the new German Type 212CD, widely regarded as one of the best conventional submarines on the planet, costs approximately $1.35 billion per boat. That’s almost three times the price of the Japanese submarine, which is also considered among the very best in the world. I’ve already pointed out the massive overpricing of German 4×4 vehicles, 30-35mm calibre ammunition, large-calibre ammunition, and now submarines.

Something is very wrong with the German defence industry. Efficiency and value for money seem to be completely foreign concepts to some relations between the defense companies and government. How much longer will it take before the Bundestag finally launches a serious investigation into these acquisitions?

https://x.com/pati_marins64/status/1996 ... 27990?s=20 --->The Type 212CD is straight-up highway robbery, yet it remains the most advanced conventional submarine in existence today. The problem is: it simply cannot cost THIS much.

This entire industry has completely forgotten the lessons of World War II. German tanks were technically superior in almost every way, yet they were buried under an avalanche of Soviet T-34s and American Shermans tanks that cost less than half as much and were churned out at triple the production rate. That war proved, once and for all, that in a prolonged attrition conflict, quantity and low unit cost are what win, not exquisite engineering alone. A weapon has to be excellent, yes, but above all it has to be cheap enough to be produced in massive numbers and replaced the day after it’s lost.

Beyond the battery revolution that is already underway, we are on the cusp of a second, even more brutal underwater revolution: swarms of fully autonomous AI-armed UUVs whose sole mission is to hunt, track and kill submarines. Dozens, hundreds of these drones will saturate the operating area, surfacing briefly to receive updated orders and transmit targeting data, then diving again to relentlessly stalk their prey. What FPV drones are currently doing to multi-million-dollar tanks on land will be replicated under the sea by cheap, expendable, fully autonomous killers operating in the dark depths. When we invest billions in a platform, we have to war-game its obsolescence curve through the eyes of our adversaries over the next 10–15 years, not just admire the brochure.

The German defence industry is addicted to gold-plating. The products are magnificent, no question. But the costs are so obscene they annihilate every single advantage they claim to offer.

[Rakesh]

Six Project 75AS (Advanced Scorpenes) boats + upgrade the first six Scorpene (Kalvari Class) boats. And then followed by Project 76 (6 + 6 build program) and partner with the Japanese on lithium battery tech if required. What is the point of the Type 212CD?

[Anoop]

In an interview with Sandeep Unnithan, V. Adm Thakare mentions how MDL now needs to switch to the old welding process for HY80 steel for the German submarines from the HLES 80 steel used for the Scorpenes. Apparently the two steels have different requirements related to their work-over characteristics. I suspect that delay in retooling is one reason for the lack of enthusiasm for the 3 additional Scorpenes as part of P-75I and instead to go all in for the German subs. Committing to one line allows the retooling process to start earlier.

[bala]

One other thing mentioned by V. Adm Thakare is about Scorpene subs and the need to get 6 more. When India wanted to add 6 more and keep HLES 80 line open, the French increased the price a lot on scorpene. This just shows how bad contracts are created initially and how 1 exam wonder babus fail in rudimentary stuff. When a contract is made they should have indicated say 18 subs initially, with option to extend after each 6 subs or terminate, price remaining more or less the same (or some agreed inflation number). They need to think about alternates and how to deal with them contractually. Foreign suppliers start playing all kinds of games - periscope was another such issue.

[Rakesh]

As INS Sindhughosh signs off, Navy down to 1990s’ strength
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/premi ... -strength/
22 Dec 2025

https://x.com/ajaynewsman/status/200295 ... 52202?s=20 ---> Indian Navy has 16 conventional submarines, including 10 which are 25 to 40 years old. The sheer numbers are at late 1990's level. An urgent wake up call is needed.

[Rakesh]

As INS Sindhughosh signs off, Navy down to 1990s’ strength
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/premi ... -strength/
22 Dec 2025

https://x.com/ajaynewsman/status/200295 ... 52202?s=20 ---> Indian Navy has 16 conventional submarines, including 10 which are 25 to 40 years old. The sheer numbers are at late 1990's level. An urgent wake up call is needed.

India Employing Multi-Pronged Approach To Counter Submarine Threat

Pakistan is set to receive four Type 039A (Hangor-class) submarines from China, part of an eight-boat deal signed in 2015. Submarines have long shaped the India-Pakistan rivalry, notably with the sinking of INS Khukri by PNS Hangor in 1971. China’s growing submarine fleet, including advanced AIP-equipped designs, extends its influence into the Indian Ocean and strengthens Pakistan’s deterrence. India is countering with enhanced anti-submarine warfare assets such as the P-8I aircraft and the MH-60R helicopter, aiming to maintain undersea superiority against both Pakistan and China.

[ashthor]

Now that 75I is on the way 76 will be approved. Ek haat le ek haat de.

[Rakesh]

Reportedly, P-75I deal closer to completion by next week. Let us see if that is true.

https://x.com/InsightGL/status/2009172139409342482?s=20 ---> India & Germany to finalize largest military contract to date. The $8 billion six P-75(I) submarine joint production deal is likely to be concluded during the upcoming visit of German Chancellor Friedrich Merz to India on 12 & 13 Jan 2025.

[Rakesh]

^^^ Will be interesting to see if a follow on batch of Black Shark torpedoes is ordered for these six boats or whether it will be the DM2A4 from Atlas Elektronik or an Indian example i.e. Takshak.

[Rakesh]

First boat is expected to arrive in 2032/2033 timeframe and that is assuming everything goes smoothly i.e. no repetition of the Project 75 (Scorpene) saga. Highly doubtful - see the second quoted para below.

TKMS outlines delivery timeline for Indian Navy’s Project-75I submarines
https://timesindian.com/news/tkms-outli ... e_vignette
24 Dec 2025

TKMS India CEO Khalil Rahman said the first submarine could be delivered in seven years if the contract is finalised on schedule, with the full fleet handed over within a decade.

Delay in the deal could prolong the wait

In the interview, Rahman cautioned that the timeline for such a large program depends on several interconnected factors. These include the timeframe for finalizing the contract, timely definition of technical requirements, the readiness of Indian vendors, and the integration and certification of complex systems such as AIP, combat systems, and weapons. The readiness of infrastructure and workforce at MDL and partner facilities will also be crucial. He said, "These risks are addressed jointly with MDL and the authorities to manage them promptly and transparently."

[Rakesh]

^^^ https://x.com/AjayshreeSamby3/status/20 ... 69535?s=20 ---> India and Germany on verge of $8 billion submarine agreement. India will scrap plans to buy three more French submarines.

[AkshaySG]

^^^ https://x.com/AjayshreeSamby3/status/20 ... 69535?s=20 ---> India and Germany on verge of $8 billion submarine agreement. India will scrap plans to buy three more French submarines.

Why scrap the 3 additional Scorpenes ( Unless they are truly compromised which I don't think is the case) ....We have the line ,we have the skill set and we desperately need more subs

It can't just be a budget thing, What use is all that fiscal tightness if we can't fulfill a massive gap.

There is no major destroyer, AC, Frigate orders in works either beyond '27 ....What exactly does IN plan to spend its capex on ?

[drnayar]

^^^ https://x.com/AjayshreeSamby3/status/20 ... 69535?s=20 ---> India and Germany on verge of $8 billion submarine agreement. India will scrap plans to buy three more French submarines.

Why scrap the 3 additional Scorpenes ( Unless they are truly compromised which I don't think is the case) ....We have the line ,we have the skill set and we desperately need more subs

It can't just be a budget thing, What use is all that fiscal tightness if we can't fulfill a massive gap.

There is no major destroyer, AC, Frigate orders in works either beyond '27 ....What exactly does IN plan to spend its capex on ?

if i hazard a guess , it would be technology transfer issues

[Kakkaji]

Apparently the French company asked for about Rs. 36,000 crores for the 3 new submarines, which was deemed by India to be too expensive for the older generation submarines (compared to the AIP-equipped new model German submarines).

[maitya]

Apparently the French company asked for about Rs. 36,000 crores for the 3 new submarines, which was deemed by India to be too expensive for the older generation submarines (compared to the AIP-equipped new model German submarines).

So 11K Cr (for new Scorpene) vs 12K Cr (for P75I) unit price - though the later includes ToT charges as well, which I'm sure would be quite substantial!!
Anyway Quick Q: How is a Scorpene + DRDO AIP and with 64% indigenous content any different from the upcoming P-75I boats?
Both will not have VLS capability, mind you ...

[SRajesh]

Admiral Saab A queestion:
Given that we are going have a menagerie of Pandubbi's, how easy is the interoperability meaning:
1. talking to one and other
2. Manpower interoperability, meaning will it take long to get used to the operations if changed from boat to another!!
3. Network centric operations

[Kakkaji]

Apparently the French company asked for about Rs. 36,000 crores for the 3 new submarines, which was deemed by India to be too expensive for the older generation submarines (compared to the AIP-equipped new model German submarines).

So 11K Cr (for new Scorpene) vs 12K Cr (for P75I) unit price - though the later includes ToT charges as well, which I'm sure would be quite substantial!!
Anyway Quick Q: How is a Scorpene + DRDO AIP and with 64% indigenous content any different from the upcoming P-75I boats?
Both will not have VLS capability, mind you ...

Maityaji:

Sorry, I can't answer your question as I have no knowledge of the subject matter.

I only reported what I read in some news report.

I am looking forward to your question being answered by Gurus like you.

TIA

[drnayar]

Apparently the French company asked for about Rs. 36,000 crores for the 3 new submarines, which was deemed by India to be too expensive for the older generation submarines (compared to the AIP-equipped new model German submarines).

So 11K Cr (for new Scorpene) vs 12K Cr (for P75I) unit price - though the later includes ToT charges as well, which I'm sure would be quite substantial!!
Anyway Quick Q: How is a Scorpene + DRDO AIP and with 64% indigenous content any different from the upcoming P-75I boats?
Both will not have VLS capability, mind you ...

Apparently the steel and welding tech is a gen behind the scorpene. Maybe admiral can elaborate

[Kartik]

So 11K Cr (for new Scorpene) vs 12K Cr (for P75I) unit price - though the later includes ToT charges as well, which I'm sure would be quite substantial!!
Anyway Quick Q: How is a Scorpene + DRDO AIP and with 64% indigenous content any different from the upcoming P-75I boats?
Both will not have VLS capability, mind you ...

Apparently the steel and welding tech is a gen behind the scorpene. Maybe admiral can elaborate

No it is just a different steel and requires different welding technique. The reference to this was in a podcast that Sandeep Unnithan had with a retd IN Admiral who was managing the ATV program for many years and had given an update on how far India is with it's indigenous diesel electric boats.

[Rakesh]

Admiral Saab A queestion:
Given that we are going have a menagerie of Pandubbi's, how easy is the interoperability meaning:
1. talking to one and other
2. Manpower interoperability, meaning will it take long to get used to the operations if changed from boat to another!!
3. Network centric operations

1. Similar to how the Sindhughosh (Kilo), Shishumar (HDW 209) and Kalvari Class (Scorpene) do now.

2. Learning the ropes of the Type 212CD will not be as challenging / intensive as mating the tech onboard the Type 212CD with the Navy's present undersea warfare doctrine (UWD). That is a fancy way of saying that the file folders on the UWD will need to be updated

3. Same as Point 1.

[Rakesh]

So 11K Cr (for new Scorpene) vs 12K Cr (for P75I) unit price - though the later includes ToT charges as well, which I'm sure would be quite substantial!!
Anyway Quick Q: How is a Scorpene + DRDO AIP and with 64% indigenous content any different from the upcoming P-75I boats?
Both will not have VLS capability, mind you ...

If you ask the Navy, it is a generational leap over the Kalvari Class. That term - generational leap - however, is largely subjective. The three follow on Scorpenes are rumoured to be replaced with three more Type 212CD boats. Will have to wait and see if that happens. US $8 billion via signing a piece of paper. We never seem to get around to signing a similar piece of paper for our own low bypass turbofan. Such are the ways of the MoD.

[Rakesh]

I would like to know what the remaining 40% will be. One major component will be the diesel engine aboard Project 75I (which is coming from MTU of Germany). Project 76 - successor to the P-75I - will have a diesel engine, also from MTU. So much for being 100% indigenous. Just like with the Tejas program, we have no diesel engine program for submarines.

https://x.com/prasannavishy/status/2009 ... 04573?s=20 ---> India set to sign Rs 70,000 crore submarine manufacturing deal. Six advanced AIP submarines to be built in India by Mazagon Dock with German tech from Thyssenkrupp, likely to headline Friedrich Merz’s India visit. Over 60% indigenous content, long-term tech transfer, and a 7–10 year build cycle. A decisive shift away from import-only buys toward Make-in-India underwater warfare.

https://x.com/cvkrishnan/status/2009931 ... 51126?s=20 ---> MDL weld-assembled 6 Scorpene sub hulls under French supervision. Now they are going to weld-assemble 6 TKMS Submarines under German supervision. Neither is it a first nor is it a long term tech transfer. Govt sells this as technology transfer for public palatability.

[Rakesh]

How Outrageously Ambitious Indian Navy QRs Paved the Way for Project 75I Submarine Import
https://thumkar.blogspot.com/2026/01/ho ... -navy.html
09 Jan 2026

[S_Madhukar]

Russia -> France -> Germany -> Spain? -> Korea? -> Japan? .. I am just trying to predict our next sub ToTs… Sorry Turkey and China miss out!
All hafta vasuli only before the major EU trade deal… lots of palms had to be greased I guess. But I hope before 2030 the lubing up is done for good.

[Rakesh]

Russia -> France -> Germany -> Spain? -> Korea? -> Japan? .. I am just trying to predict our next sub ToTs… Sorry Turkey and China miss out!
All hafta vasuli only before the major EU trade deal… lots of palms had to be greased I guess. But I hope before 2030 the lubing up is done for good.

I am afraid India will be applying more lube, post Project 75I. Just GUBO (Grease Up & Bend Over).