Vayusena & Nausena Rafale: News & Discussion

[S_Madhukar]

If our mainstream media was as articulate Sirji these X narratives won’t work … but alas our movies and news are just nautanki … what a waste of resources

[Rakesh]

ORCA will come after 114 is signed
Project 76 after 75i is signed
TEDBF after 26 is signed

ek haat de ke haat le

Bingo!

[Rakesh]

If our mainstream media was as articulate Sirji these X narratives won’t work … but alas our movies and news are just nautanki … what a waste of resources

Abuses are hurled at you on X, if you don't agree with their narrative.

[Rakesh]

THE RAFALE TRAP: Is India’s ₹3.25L Cr Deal Killing the Tejas Mk2?

Is India’s ₹3.25 lakh crore deal for 114 Rafale jets a death sentence for the homegrown Tejas Mk2? Or is it the strategic "shield" our indigenous program needs to survive? As we move through 2026, the Indian Air Force faces a critical shortage of fighter squadrons. While the Tejas Mk2 is our homegrown hero, its first flight is scheduled for mid-2026—leaving a "numbers gap" that our neighbors could exploit today. In this deep-dive report, we analyze why the Dassault Rafale is the "omnirole beast" India needs for immediate survival. We break down the SPECTRA Electronic Warfare system, the "Bomb Truck" payload capacity, and the "Indianized" features like BrahMos-NG and Astra missile integration. Most importantly, we bust the myth of the "Money Talk". Discover how staggered payments ensure the IAF gets its Rafales while leaving $6-7 billion annually for the AMCA 5th-gen fighter and Tejas production. This isn't a choice between French or Indian; it's about building an unstoppable force for 2026.

[uddu]

THE RAFALE TRAP: Is India’s ₹3.25L Cr Deal Killing the Tejas Mk2?

Is India’s ₹3.25 lakh crore deal for 114 Rafale jets a death sentence for the homegrown Tejas Mk2? Or is it the strategic "shield" our indigenous program needs to survive? As we move through 2026, the Indian Air Force faces a critical shortage of fighter squadrons. While the Tejas Mk2 is our homegrown hero, its first flight is scheduled for mid-2026—leaving a "numbers gap" that our neighbors could exploit today. In this deep-dive report, we analyze why the Dassault Rafale is the "omnirole beast" India needs for immediate survival. We break down the SPECTRA Electronic Warfare system, the "Bomb Truck" payload capacity, and the "Indianized" features like BrahMos-NG and Astra missile integration. Most importantly, we bust the myth of the "Money Talk". Discover how staggered payments ensure the IAF gets its Rafales while leaving $6-7 billion annually for the AMCA 5th-gen fighter and Tejas production. This isn't a choice between French or Indian; it's about building an unstoppable force for 2026.

The way narratives are pushed are amazing to say the most. Hope that for all the purchases India is making, we get to sell them a good amount of indigenous weapons as well.

[Rakesh]

The way narratives are pushed are amazing to say the most. Hope that for all the purchases India is making, we get to sell them a good amount of indigenous weapons as well.

Media houses and defence analysts can read the writing on the wall i.e. the MRFA is becoming a reality. Barring some earth shattering revelation that will sink the contract, it is expected to reach fruition. This is more than 25 years in the making and thus they only they can stay relevant is by being trumping up the deal. You will see more of this as we get to DAC and then CCS approval.

[Rakesh]

@ uddu, here is another "sensational" news item ---> viewtopic.php?p=2670085#p2670085

[uddu]

The way narratives are pushed are amazing to say the most. Hope that for all the purchases India is making, we get to sell them a good amount of indigenous weapons as well.

Media houses and defence analysts can read the writing on the wall i.e. the MRFA is becoming a reality. Barring some earth shattering revelation that will sink the contract, it is expected to reach fruition. This is more than 25 years in the making and thus they only they can stay relevant is by being trumping up the deal. You will see more of this as we get to DAC and then CCS approval.

It is inevitable other than Shriman Modi himself cutting the deal down to few 36 or so numbers for IAF. Increasing Tejas MK2 orders to 200. Offering U.S with a GE 200 engine deal with delivery priority for India and tech transfer. Finalizing Safran deal for AMCA engine. Ensuring Kaveri project is giving priority including test facility setup. Will remain a dream.

[Rakesh]

It is inevitable other than Shriman Modi himself cutting the deal down to few 36 or so numbers for IAF. Increasing Tejas MK2 orders to 200. Offering U.S with a GE 200 engine deal with delivery priority for India and tech transfer. Finalizing Safran deal for AMCA engine. Ensuring Kaveri project is giving priority including test facility setup. Will remain a dream.

GE (and the US political establishment) does not need India, as much as India needs GE. Thus 200 F414 engines is India's priority. It is not GE's priority. HAL Chief visited GE in the US recently. He requested GE to speed up deliveries. But that is all he can do i.e. request. There is no coercion cards that India has. Tech transfer with GE will not happen. The Jet Engine Technology Joint Working Group (JETJWG) between India and the US turned out to be a damp squib. In meetings, GE was only interested in knowing how far GTRE was progressing with the Kaveri and had zero intentions of transferring any viable technology. Relying on GE or any foreign OEM is not a viable solution. Even the Safran deal for AMCA remains to be seen if Safran will actually fulfill her contractual obligations. This is what happens when you do not have your own home grown solution. You remain at the mercy of a foreign OEM.

The license assembly of 99 GE F414 has yet to be signed and discussions are on going since 2022. It takes four years to decide on license assembly of non-critical components of the turbofan? One of Trump's key demands in the India-US trade deal is to purchase more American military hardware. The 114 MRFA contract is key to this. What do you think he is going to do when the deal does not go to a US company i.e. Boeing or Lockheed Martin? So we must import 114 F-35s or 114 F-15EXs, just to keep Trump happy and get continued support for the Tejas program? What about source code access for F-35 or F-15EX? What will the cost be for 114 F-35s or F-15EXs? Or is that criticism only reserved for 114 Rafales? What will we do if Unkil decides not to provide sustainment for the F-35 fleet that India acquires?

The same arguments that we put up for not acquiring the Rafale, applies to any of the other contestants in the MRFA contest. So what is this takleef with the Rafale is a mystery. Hypocrisy is what it is. The Indo-US bonhomie (post the 123 nuclear agreement) has come to an end. The stakeholders in India are waking up to the reality that after 2 decades of purchasing American military hardware, it has yet to get the US political establishment to end its desire of treating India like a pliant partner.

P.S. This 114 Rafale deal has full blessing of Shri Narendra Modi-ji himself He is the head of Govt.

[bala]

I am awaiting a firm commitment by the GOI to fund engines and keep funding aircraft development in India. The rest is about Videshi maal purchase which IMO is boring and all about keeping the IAF chaps happy and engaged. All the screwdrivergiri work in India with Rafael is inconsequential in moving the needle. Maybe some rigour and discipline and beyond that not much. All the imported machines, monitoring equipment etc are nice jeewhiz things but nothing much can be learnt about what they internally do. The MOD has to be keenly involved in furthering ATMA NIRBHARTA for armed forces and their equipment. Being #3 means you are on your own and no one will come to your rescue.

[uddu]

GE (and the US political establishment) does not need India, as much as India needs GE. Thus 200 F414 engines is India's priority. It is not GE's priority. HAL Chief visited GE in the US recently. He requested GE to speed up deliveries. But that is all he can do i.e. request. There is no coercion cards that India has. Tech transfer with GE will not happen. The Jet Engine Technology Joint Working Group (JETJWG) between India and the US turned out to be a damp squib. In meetings, GE was only interested in knowing how far GTRE was progressing with the Kaveri and had zero intentions of transferring any viable technology. Relying on GE or any foreign OEM is not a viable solution. Even the Safran deal for AMCA remains to be seen if Safran will actually fulfill her contractual obligations. This is what happens when you do not have your own home grown solution. You remain at the mercy of a foreign OEM.

P.S. This deal has full blessing of Shri Narendra Modi-ji himself

India Nears Landmark GE F414 Engine Deal with US, Securing 80% Technology Transfer to Power Tejas Mk2 and AMCA Ambitions
https://theasialive.com/india-nears-lan ... 026/01/06/
Negotiations for the prospective contract—valued at around USD 1.5 billion—have now been concluded, laying the groundwork for an unprecedented 80 per cent Transfer of Technology (ToT). Once approved by both governments, a process anticipated to be completed within the first quarter of 2026, the agreement will mark a watershed moment in India’s quest for self-reliance in advanced military aerospace propulsion.

Remain at the Mercy of the OEM when urgency is not shown with indigenous engine program for a decade. So there are two paths to choose.
Cut down on Rafale and Order more Tejas MK2 or go with the Rafale and show ensure MK2 also gets 200+ numbers, even the follow on MK2A comes with DRDO-Safran engine.

[Rakesh]

The real magic uddu lies in the remaining 20%

And let the deal get signed first. Then pop the champagne.

It is anyone guess how the Orange Diaper Baby is going to react, post the CCS approval of the 114 Rafale deal.

[uddu]

The real magic uddu lies in the remaining 20%

And let the deal get signed first. Then pop the champagne.

It is anyone guess how the Orange Diaper Baby is going to react, post the CCS approval of the 114 Rafale deal.

Depends on Trump and his mood.

[Rakesh]

Depends on Trump and his mood.

So Indian airpower must rest on the mood of a US President?

Tejas will serve for at least four decades in the IAF. Around 300 - 400 Tejas in multiple variants are expected to be produced. For the next 4 decades, we want an Atmanirbhar Bharat product to be in the hands of multiple future US administrations? How is this acceptable?

[uddu]

So Indian airpower must rest on the mood of a US President?

Tejas will serve for at least four decades in the IAF. Around 300 - 400 Tejas in multiple variants are expected to be produced. For the next 4 decades, we want an Atmanirbhar Bharat product to be in the hands of multiple future US administrations? How is this acceptable?

Are you saying that it's either GE 414 or Safran deal?

[uddu]

Its our own leadership that brought us to this situation. At Both Political and Military level leadership. You are forced to accept deals be it 80 percent or 50 percent. Do you have other options? And above all the IAF chief is dreaming of joining some consortium for 6th Generation fighter. I don't know where our country will go with regard to IAF and IA. IN will be almost independent in a decade. So just sit and watch what's been signed.

[Rakesh]

Are you saying that it's either GE 414 or Safran deal?

What we need is an alternative to the F404 for Mk1A and F414 for the Mk2. Easier said than done, but Unkil is not reliable.

We can 100% rely on China to be our enemy. We have zero guarantee on America being India's friend or having a strategic partnership. America's reliability changes from one US administration to the next.

What we need to do is to complete Kaveri. But we do not want to do that. And thus the 114 MRFA exists. Bashing Rafale, Dassault, France are distractions to change the focus of criticism that you highlighted in your post below.

Its our own leadership that brought us to this situation. At Both Political and Military level leadership. You are forced to accept deals be it 80 percent or 50 percent. Do you have other options? And above all the IAF chief is dreaming of joining some consortium for 6th Generation fighter. I don't know where our country will go with regard to IAF and IA. IN will be almost independent in a decade. So just sit and watch what's been signed.

I am sorry uddu, but IN will not be independent. Please see this ---> viewtopic.php?p=2670015#p2670015

[uddu]

...

That's what I am saying too. F404 should have alternative, and is very much possible with Kaveri. This should continue. F414, there are no alternatives as of now. No alternative of Kaveri engine that you could fit into MK2 in the next 4 to 5 years atleast. America cannot be relied, nor is French. The experience MDL experienced working with the French is well documented. How different will be with engines need to be seen. Does that mean, we must not try alternative with the French? We have no option and hence have to go with French engines. What I am suggesting is immediate solutions and not medium or long term ones. That should be indigenous engines. Starting from investing in testing infrastructure to anything that the team needs to ensure success with indigenous engines need to be done. Even if it means, cutting down on the number of Rafales and putting that money into engine test infra and new engine development.

[uddu]

By the way, there is some news of Tejas Naval variant being considered by IN for training our pilots on landing and taking off from our Aircraft carriers. How true is that is not known.

[Rakesh]

That's what I am saying too. F404 should have alternative, and is very much possible with Kaveri. This should continue. F414, there are no alternatives as of now. No alternative of Kaveri engine that you could fit into MK2 in the next 4 to 5 years atleast. America cannot be relied, nor is French. The experience MDL experienced working with the French is well documented. How different will be with engines need to be seen. Does that mean, we must not try alternative with the French? We have no option and hence have to go with French engines. What I am suggesting is immediate solutions and not medium or long term ones. That should be indigenous engines. Starting from investing in testing infrastructure to anything that the team needs to ensure success with indigenous engines need to be done. Even if it means, cutting down on the number of Rafales and putting that money into engine test infra and new engine development.

If Trump throws a tantrum (and that is a big *IF) and cancels/pauses all future American military hardware to India, that will put the entire Tejas program in jeopardy. Sandeep Unnithan addressed that concern here ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR7XUKH_p_8

Go to 52:54 in the link above. As a side note, Sandeep Unnithan asked a question in the video above.

Q. from Sandeep --> Who in their mind thought that the US would go rogue like this?

A. BR Forum answered that question years earlier And it came back to the forefront during the SE fighter contest. But at that time the Indo-US bonhomie was on a drug induced, euphoric high. To even suggest on BRF that US would go rogue, would result you being labelled as BRF being close minded and not able to see the big picture.

Immediate solution is infrastructure investment for completing Kaveri. We are not doing that. So any discussion on that is academic.

Cutting down on Rafales is not going to happen. The Govt has invested in the idea of 114 MRFA. If not Rafale, then it will be another aircraft. But 114 MRFA is coming, whether we like it or not.

[Rakesh]

By the way, there is some news of Tejas Naval variant being considered by IN for training our pilots on landing and taking off from our Aircraft carriers. How true is that is not known.

See these posts (in the order listed below) on the issue you have raised in your post...

1. viewtopic.php?p=2653058#p2653058

2. viewtopic.php?p=2653250#p2653250

[uddu]

GaN tech denied as part of Rafale deal and we developed it inhouse
https://x.com/i/status/2015146187297566878
@dotcom_1106
Tech Denied, no problem.
We will develop it inhouse. We are DRDO

[Kanoji]

GaN tech denied as part of Rafale deal and we developed it inhouse
https://x.com/i/status/2015146187297566878
@dotcom_1106
Tech Denied, no problem.
We will develop it inhouse. We are DRDO

The article and YT interview expanding what was posted above.

Youtube Video - DRDO’s Suma Varughese on why compound semiconductors matter more than silicon in modern warfare

EXCLUSIVE: How DRDO cracked the code for GaN technology, boosting India's defence

Denied access to compound chip technology by foreign powers, Indian scientists did what they always do: Make in India

“In 2016, the order for 36 aircraft was signed as an inter-governmental agreement, mandating a 50 per cent offset clause,” said Mishra. Under the clause, French firms were required to reinvest 50 per cent of the contract value—about Rs30,000 crore—into India through technology transfer, business opportunities and R&D. “India proposed to receive GaN technology under the offset clause, but that was deemed a non-starter because of the strategic and state-of-the-art nature of the technology,” said Mishra. “The circuits were not denied but the technology was.”

India’s sustained investments in space-borne microwave and radar technologies through ISRO’s Space Applications Centre (SAC), Ahmedabad, have strengthened the domestic compound semiconductor ecosystem.

SSPL- and GAETEC-made chips support India’s SBS-3 space-based surveillance programme, which safeguards border and maritime interests. The X-band radar—missile defence and space surveillance—payload alone requires more than 9,000 MMICs, including more than 6,000 produced and screened at GAETEC. X-band components are subject to strict international trade controls.

The article is an interesting read on the development of GaN based chips.

The above Youtube video and article - courtesy of "The Week" magazine.

[Sumeet]

I don't know why do we ever expect that someone would hand us core critical technologies like single crystal engine blade, variable cycle engine, GaN MMIC, scramjet tech, software defined radar & ECCM etc ...

Will we give it to someone else and if yes for what in return -- or just some extra $$$ ?

[Rakesh]

Bingo! Well said Sumeet.

Tomorrow if we export Tejas Mk2 or AMCA to a friendly country, will India hand over the following (upon request);

1) Source Code access to integrate that friendly nation's weaponry.
2) Crown jewel access of the 120kN turbofan that powers the AMCA.

Because if we will not do the above, how do we expect another country to export that tech to us?

The sense of entitlement that we live under is astounding. And then we blame that foreign country's OEM when they do not hand it over to us. When in fact, the blame should squarely land on the shoulders of our own stakeholders that never nurtured those industries within the country.

When no one just handed over a SSBN to us, we had to develop it all on our own. From the nuclear reactor to the hull design to the SLBMs to the sonars to the torpedoes, it is all Indian. And when we did it, it was a matter of national pride. And we are doing the same with the SSN (Project 77). We just did the same with the posts that uddu and Kanoji made. No one will hand you their crown jewels. What is the net positive that exists for them?

Today, India has to spend $35+ billion on foreign fighters because our home grown fighter is not coming on time. The latest news is the HAL will miss even the March 2026 deadline to deliver the first batch of Tejas Mk1As to the IAF. While we cannot blame HAL for GE engine delays, what is the latest excuse that HAL has to give for not delivering Tejas Mk1A in March of this year?

Can we tell the Chinese to hold on and let us build our squadron strength first? Because if you attack us prior to that, then it is not fair. So give us till at least 2040, before you attack.

[Rakesh]

Indian Air Force began a fighter jet hunt 2 decades ago. It's finally nearing an end
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2026-01-25
25 Jan 2026

India is reportedly in the last stages of clearing and signing an agreement with France to purchase 114 additional Rafale fighter jets for the Air Force. The deal, if it goes through, would mark the conclusion of a fighter jet hunt that the Indian Air Force began nearly two decades ago.

[Vayutuvan]

So Indian airpower must rest on the mood of a US President?

Tejas will serve for at least four decades in the IAF. Around 300 - 400 Tejas in multiple variants are expected to be produced. For the next 4 decades, we want an Atmanirbhar Bharat product to be in the hands of multiple future US administrations? How is this acceptable?

I read all the posts following this one, a truly depressing state of affairs.

How did we paint ourselves into a corner? Is there a solution at this late date? I am thinking accelerated PPP might be a way out.

[Rakesh]

I read all the posts following this one, a truly depressing state of affairs.

How did we paint ourselves into a corner? Is there a solution at this late date? I am thinking accelerated PPP might be a way out.

Malaise and easy access to imports is the reason for painting ourselves into a corner.

There is a solution to every problem. We don't want to adopt the solution, because it involves investing money that does not produce a result that "appears" desirable. Ask yourself ---> Which looks good on paper for the Govt/IAF ---> homegrown turbofan or 114 foreign, off-the-shelf fighters?

[Vayutuvan]

I would definitely go for homegrown, but that is me.

[Rakesh]

I would definitely go for homegrown, but that is me.

https://x.com/samirsaran/status/2015338 ... 41409?s=20 ---> Can India beat China? Time to spend 4-5% of GDP on defence and link it to investing in research and emerging tech platforms.

Tweet below is in response to the tweet above ^^^^

https://x.com/sriramthg/status/2015482500517433835?s=20 ---> The best time for that was in 2014. But we shut down our engine program.

The second best time is now.

=============================================

But we will import 114 Rafale and then blame Dassault for not giving us source code access. Clown Behaviour.

[Kanoji]

I do not understand why the Government is not funding the Kaveri program to its fullest extent - for example flying test beds in India instead of depending on Russia.

Given the right political push and financing our engineers and technologists have excelled and created huge impact with indigenous solutions. Some examples are:

1. Denial of Cray for NCMRWF -> Param Supercomputers
2. Denial of tech for Cryogenic engines leading to indigenous development of the same
3. MAX and RAX from CDOT which revolutionized rural telecom connectivity
4. Development of ceramic brake drums for Mig-21's when the Soviets could not supply these reliably
5. LCA FBW HW/SW confiscated after 1998 Nuclear tests - It was re-develped from ground up and successfully integrated in LCA.
6. From an importer of heavy water India became an exporter of heavy water and became self sufficient in Tritium production.
7. Covaxin for Covid
8. Most recently out own UPI.

These are just some of the things that I could come up from the top of my head. I am sure there are more technologies that we have developed which are less glamorous than jet engines.

[Rakesh]

There is a vested group within the country that does not want India to develop her own turbofan. That group is funded via foreign interests that wants India to keep importing turbofans.

If you eliminate the impossible; whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

* 114 Rafale = $35 billion. Okay

* Engine Development = Too Costly

But let us blame Dassault for not giving us source code access, engine tech, Meteor, etc.

https://x.com/Neetivaan/status/2015390776990339101?s=20 ---> No one will help us as they see us as their competitor, we are alone in this. The day people at the top understand this will be the day we will see Indian Fighters flying with Indian engines.

[Tanaji]

...

Kanoji saab,

One answer is that in each of the above examples, we iterated. We built a small KN cryo engine and then a bigger one. UPI was gradually scaled up. Param series started out small in terms of FLOP speed.

Here the customer insists on a state of the art F414+ engine with flat rating and probably the same MTBF and service intervals of an engine with 15 year experience in the field. This is a high barrier and to add, has human safety in the mix. So the complexity increases further.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/IamRajat_Pandit/status/20 ... 78789?s=20 ---> India’s systemic inability to formulate & execute long-term plans to build military capabilities to tackle collusive #ChinaPakistan threat evident again with Govt planning acquisition of 114 #Rafale jets after scrapping similar project a decade ago! My op-ed piece @DeccanHerald.