Vayusena & Nausena Rafale: News & Discussion

[Rakesh]

Rakesh ji, I am not saying Su-30MKI is an option if today the choice is made. Su-30 MKI is a decision way back. For sure. our own mistake that we did not go ahead with Marut and further fighters etc. Su-30MKI is a fighter that already exists in IAF. The only option is to upgrade them and keep doing it till the AMCA MK2's arrive. It's really pathetic that the Super Sukhoi upgrade is taken up very late. Once again shows the IAF's lack of vision. The numbers that are updated are in the 83, I don't know why keep the remaining obsolete? Will adding More Rafael must have given us the edge or fast tracking the Super Sukhoi program must have given use the edge in dominating the skies. Import Rafale and then keep remaining fighters in obsolesce is another issue of the IAF.

Wistfully talking about the past is not going to change the present or the future.

The path ahead is all that matters. The reality is we do not have our own engine. So now we are importing fighters. The foolishness of that decision is the price to pay for not funding your own homegrown low-bypass turbofan.

[uddu]

led. The numbers of 114 is insane. It must have been max at another 24 or so. Just to make sure there is some induction of fighters when the MK2 starts getting inducted. IAF fight with? IAF not inducting Astra on time with Su-30 MKI has cost us? Who prevented them from that? Astra is in testing from how many years. While flying with Russian missiles and not inducting a modern missile. They can fight such a war? May be shocked at the result of it. Then started induction of Astra. Take the case of upgrading of radars Why is it still taken such a long time if IAF is so urgent and is want to fight with Modern AESA radar in the face of Uttam? Only now that project is getting sanction when everything is perfect and tech beats global competition. How capable are Mirages and Mig-29's compared to MK1A's? Replace them with MK1A's if you are sure that they are better than those aircrafts. Starts with the basics. Take the first step.

Whether we like it or not, 114 will come. Look at the future fleet strength. By the middle of the next decade, the MiG-29, Mirage 2000 and Jaguars will all retire. On the horizon is 180 incoming Tejas Mk1A + 272 Su-30MKI + 36 Rafales + 100 Tejas Mk2. That comes to little over 29 squadrons. The official strength is supposed to be at 42. What will you fill the gap with? Even if we add another 100 more Mk2s, that will bring the strength to around 34 squadrons. You still need another 8 squadrons more. What will you fill it with?

Rakesh ji, Squadron strength. You want numbers? Mass manufacture MK1A's. Followed by MK2's, Followed by AMCA. Followed by ORCA etc in the 300's.
Still it will be better than showing numbers with Mirage+Mig-29+Jaguar+Rafale. About leverage on engines, the more the numbers better will be your leverage. You want options. Make 200 MK1A's with American engines. Create a French variant version and manufacture the same with French ones. Do both in parallel. Eventually replace both with Kaveri.

[Aditya_V]

My only hope is that there is some deal which Will help ave our local engines for LCA Mk1A, Mk2 and AMCA, atleast that will get us a bigger fleet, I hope UAE Rafale MRO is part of this deal, so we will eventually have 176 Rafale between AF and Navy.

[uddu]

My only hope is that there is some deal which Will help ave our local engines for LCA Mk1A, Mk2 and AMCA, atleast that will get us a bigger fleet, I hope UAE Rafale MRO is part of this deal, so we will eventually have 176 Rafale between AF and Navy.

There seems 0 involvement of IAF. Now there may be as the ministry or ministers may be asking them to do something. Not heard a single word of asking for Kaveri or its variants from the Chief or anyone in the IAF till now. Not a tidbit of news. The most you hear is Kaveri thrust requirement did not meet our needs. That's it. Whatever is happening the news is that of DRDO improving on it and private players offering afterburner and so on. IAF is like we will import. Maja Nahi Aya with desi equipment. They want perfection with indigenous equipment. Fine, that's how it should be. But when we open the IAF's own record, it's pathetic.

[Rakesh]

Rakesh ji, Squadron strength. You want numbers? Mass manufacture MK1A's. Followed by MK2's, Followed by AMCA. Followed by ORCA etc in the 300's.
Still it will be better than showing numbers with Mirage+Mig-29+Jaguar+Rafale. About leverage on engines, the more the numbers better will be your leverage. You want options. Make 200 MK1A's with American engines. Create a French variant version and manufacture the same with French ones. Do both in parallel. Eventually replace both with Kaveri.

Numbers in large triple digits will come about only with our own engine.

The IAF, the MoD, the PMO and the Babus (the stakeholders) will not jump on board without our own homegrown turbofan. None of the above will become a reality without their buy in.

[uddu]

Rakesh ji, Squadron strength. You want numbers? Mass manufacture MK1A's. Followed by MK2's, Followed by AMCA. Followed by ORCA etc in the 300's.
Still it will be better than showing numbers with Mirage+Mig-29+Jaguar+Rafale. About leverage on engines, the more the numbers better will be your leverage. You want options. Make 200 MK1A's with American engines. Create a French variant version and manufacture the same with French ones. Do both in parallel. Eventually replace both with Kaveri.

Numbers in large triple digits will come about only with our own engine.

The IAF, the MoD, the PMO and the Babus (the stakeholders) will not jump on board without our own homegrown turbofan. None of the above will become a reality without their buy in.

They are also responsible for the pathetic state of situation. If Parikkar has said let's import rather than attempt an HTT-40, we will continue importing basic trainers. The leadership is supposed to lead by providing what is needed to get things done, rather than do wait and watch games. Kaveri came with lesser thrust. Tech is there. Provide the needed facilities. Get the private players involved in improving the afterburner section if they have the facilities to manufacture them taking tech from lab to factory. Cut down time. However it is, get the Kaveri project done and make it fly on Tejas. Otherwise why we need to have a Defense Minister? Just to import fighters from abroad? Multiple Kaveri engines of various sizes and thrust could be done for the money being put in imports.

[uddu]

The path ahead is all that matters. The reality is we do not have our own engine. So now we are importing fighters. The foolishness of that decision is the price to pay for not funding your own homegrown low-bypass turbofan.

Rakesh ji, It's not just the past. It's Present and Future as well. There is very very little change in this attitude that existed then and today. Import Air Force disease has not changed. The Soon to be Future version of it is the need to have Su-57. Then will come the need to import 6 th gen and so on. Until you cure the disease by yourself and choose what the Indian Navy is doing, no one can help the IAF. They will remain an Imported Air Force.

[uddu]

Also there is a hidden danger in the Rafale deal. It's the radar. Nowhere in the news the option to change radar is mentioned. After a decade when the need to replace the radar comes into picture, which radar are we going to replace it with? Upgrade variant of the Virupaaksha Ver2 or 3? If it can only have French Radars, we may even have to compromise on better radar and pay huge amount again to the French to have their radar at that time. Then what about weapons if those Indian made weapons are not compatible with that French radar and France at that time decides not to help integrate Indian weapons? Where will we go with that outdated Rafale?

The IAF at that time, may not be even thinking of upgrading the radar with Virupaksha ver 2/3 but asking for import of Fifth gen fighter since Chinese has 6th gen fighters and we are short of squadron strength while inducting MK2 in 100 and AMCA another 100.

[drnayar]

Also there is a hidden danger in the Rafale deal. It's the radar. Nowhere in the news the option to change radar is mentioned. After a decade when the need to replace the radar comes into picture, which radar are we going to replace it with? Upgrade variant of the Virupaaksha Ver2 or 3? If it can only have French Radars, we may even have to compromise on better radar and pay huge amount again to the French to have their radar at that time. Then what about weapons if those Indian made weapons are not compatible with that French radar and France at that time decides not to help integrate Indian weapons? Where will we go with that outdated Rafale?

The IAF at that time, may not be even thinking of upgrading the radar with Virupaksha ver 2/3 but asking for import of Fifth gen fighter since Chinese has 6th gen fighters and we are short of squadron strength while inducting MK2 in 100 and AMCA another 100.

that is very much the reality. India has no other option than to keep up., buy or build

[uddu]

The IAF at that time, may not be even thinking of upgrading the radar with Virupaksha ver 2/3 but asking for import of Fifth gen fighter since Chinese has 6th gen fighters and we are short of squadron strength while inducting MK2 in 100 and AMCA another 100.

that is very much the reality. India has no other option than to keep up., buy or build

We have the real Atmanirbhar option if they choose it. IAF should be onboard not in lip service but in asking for it and getting it done. It's really tough, but they have to trend that path for a decade atleast. Once IAF takes the lead others including the MoD to RM to PM will follow and provide what is required.

[Rakesh]

The path ahead is all that matters. The reality is we do not have our own engine. So now we are importing fighters. The foolishness of that decision is the price to pay for not funding your own homegrown low-bypass turbofan.

Rakesh ji, It's not just the past. It's Present and Future as well. There is very very little change in this attitude that existed then and today. Import Air Force disease has not changed. The Soon to be Future version of it is the need to have Su-57. Then will come the need to import 6 th gen and so on. Until you cure the disease by yourself and choose what the Indian Navy is doing, no one can help the IAF. They will remain an Imported Air Force.

We are back at square one

No engine, so import fighter. No amount of word salad is going to change that fact.

In 2016, had we funded Kaveri....we would not be buying 114 Rafales in 2026. Would we?

[Rakesh]

Also there is a hidden danger in the Rafale deal. It's the radar. Nowhere in the news the option to change radar is mentioned. After a decade when the need to replace the radar comes into picture, which radar are we going to replace it with? Upgrade variant of the Virupaaksha Ver2 or 3? If it can only have French Radars, we may even have to compromise on better radar and pay huge amount again to the French to have their radar at that time. Then what about weapons if those Indian made weapons are not compatible with that French radar and France at that time decides not to help integrate Indian weapons? Where will we go with that outdated Rafale?

The IAF at that time, may not be even thinking of upgrading the radar with Virupaksha ver 2/3 but asking for import of Fifth gen fighter since Chinese has 6th gen fighters and we are short of squadron strength while inducting MK2 in 100 and AMCA another 100.

But yet you are okay with importing another 24 more

Since Rafale is bad, we should not purchase any more Rafale. Also retire the 36 we have now and cancel the 26 order for the Navy.

Cancel everything. Because what you said above is equally true for the confirmed Rafales we have in service or on order.

[bala]

On Engine: the current GTRE kaveri is almost there in terms of spec at least for the non-afterburner core.

My question is why can't we fly Tejas MK1A with just the core, no afterburner. As it is we fire missiles at longer range BVR and there are no more dogfights in actual warfare anymore. When the afterburner issues are squared away the engine is upgraded. With afterburner, the Tejas will have rapid fire and scoot away. This is something that can happen right now after some more certification tests.

[Rakesh]

On Engine: the current GTRE kaveri is almost there in terms of spec at least for the non-afterburner core.

My question is why can't we fly Tejas MK1A with just the core, no afterburner. As it is we fire missiles at longer range BVR and there are no more dogfights in actual warfare anymore. When the afterburner issues are squared away the engine is upgraded. With afterburner, the Tejas will have rapid fire and scoot away. This is something that can happen right now after some more certification tests.

Saar, you need afterburner to take off.

[bala]

Saar, you need afterburner to take off.

This from Google AI

Yes, afterburners are used for takeoff in military aircraft, particularly for rapid acceleration, heavy loads, short runways, or when high temperatures reduce engine performance. While often utilized for maximum thrust, they are not always used for every takeoff, as they significantly increase fuel consumption.

Conclusions: for normal takeoffs not needed!

[Rakesh]

The first half of the answer from Google AI is applicable (i.e. high temperatures) to nearly every military air station in India.

I have yet to see a single IAF fighter take off without an afterburner, operating from an Indian air base. In fact, I have yet to see any IAF fighter aircraft take off from any airbase globally (i.e. international air exercises) without the use of afterburner.

Even in clean configuration (no pylons, weapons, drop tanks, ECM pods, etc), the Tejas will require an afterburner.

I am willing to be corrected on this.

[drnayar]

Summary of Afterburner Usage

Aircraft Type Afterburner Requirement for Takeoff
Early Jets (e.g., F-86) None (not equipped)
Older Supersonic (e.g., F-4) Almost always required due to low dry thrust
Modern Fighters (e.g., F-15, F-16) Optional; based on weight and runway length
Supercruise (e.g., F-22, Typhoon) Rarely "necessary," but used for high-performance maneuvers

While modern supersonic fighters are almost always equipped with them, their use during takeoff is a tactical and operational decision rather than a mechanical necessity for every flight. pilots may still use it for "unrestricted climbs" or in combat scrambles to reach altitude as fast as possible.

Factors Influencing Afterburner Use

Pilots perform a "takeoff and landing data" (TOLD) calculation before every flight to determine if an afterburner is required.

Weight and Loadout: A "slick" aircraft (no external tanks or heavy bombs) can often take off using only "Military Power"—the maximum thrust a jet engine produces without afterburner. Heavily loaded planes usually require the extra boost.

Runway Length: If the calculated takeoff roll at Military Power exceeds 50% of the available runway, regulations typically mandate an afterburner takeoff for safety.

Environmental Conditions: High "density altitude" (hot, humid, or high-elevation air) reduces engine thrust, making afterburners necessary when they might not be on a cold day.

Carrier Operations: On aircraft carriers, afterburners are almost always used to ensure enough speed is reached by the end of the short deck.

[bala]

My suggestion of engine without afterburner can be used by IAF on limited number of tejas and be a part of testing so that the core is fully refined. Once the core is done, the afterburner section is added (whenever they figure it out completely). IAF has to have some skin in the game of local fighter jets instead of being only a customer.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/2022009307630645369?s=20 ---> Will HAL be part of Rafale production in India or be left out? It came up in my discussion tonight around the newly cleared procurement of 114 Rafale jets.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Sootradhar/status/2021958 ... 14065?s=20 ---> Govt of India seems to following the commonsense plan devised by Late Manohar Parrikar.

Parrikar had asked the IAF one question, You have Russian, French, American & Indian Platforms. How do you plan to train maintenance crews? Assuming if one set of crew is KIA, how will you replace them? In addition Parrikar was annoyed at very low availability of Su-30, MiG-29 due to lack of spares. In short he made up his mind that India must have platforms wherein supply of spares are never a problem = Streamline the Fleet. He insisted with Dassault for high rate of availability of the Rafale. Second it was he who insisted that Dassault must ensure that Indian companies must be on the global supply chain of Dassault. And this is happening as Tata's will build Aerostructures, many other Indian companies selected by Dassault will be part of the eco system. I believe we are streamlining IAF fleet of fighter jets. It will be French and Indian jets here on.

My Note: ^^^ The high availability rate of the Rafale resulted in the PBL (Performance Based Logistics) agreement in the first contract of 36 Rafales. The PBL stated that for five years, the fleet availability has to be at minimum 75%. The fleet has consistently achieved a rate higher than that. Much pranams to Manohar Parrikar's vision. That PBL will now transform into the MRO at Jewar for the airframe and the MRO at Hyderabad for the M88 turbofan.

The French have already started to pop Champagne in Paris, over the DAC approval for 114 Rafales. See the two tweets below. The first one is from Marie Le Pen, whom I believe is the Leader of the Opposition in French Parliament.

https://x.com/MLP_officiel/status/20220 ... 05597?s=20 ---> The Indian government has just approved the purchase of 114 Rafale aircraft, confirming its status as Dassault’s best-selling export product. This is yet another proof of the excellence of the French defense industry in international competition. On the geopolitical level, it is also a strong signal that underscores the importance of the strategic bilateral partnership between India and France. These ties of trust, respectful of the sovereignty and interests of each State, are a true cement for global stability. We will work to strengthen them in the years to come!

https://x.com/cperrin90/status/2021942164750839976?s=20 ---> On 23 September 2016, I had the honor of participating in India at the signing of the contract for 36 Rafale aircraft. 10 years later: 114 Rafale purchased for 33 billion euros. A major industrial and strategic success. French Pride.

[Rakesh]

The GOI has embarked on a highly complex venture i.e. Rafale assembly. Read the tweets below (translated from French). The number of variables that could go wrong here is fairly high. One hopes that the GOI has crossed all the 'T's and dotted all the 'I's.

https://x.com/AlexXplore/status/2021898 ... 32013?s=20 ---> To build a Rafale, an ecosystem of nearly 400 companies is required, including Dassault Aviation, Thales, and Safran, but also numerous SMEs and mid-sized enterprises spread across the entire territory, particularly in Normandy and Nouvelle-Aquitaine, generating around 7,000 direct and indirect jobs.

The assembly of a Rafale takes place over 3 years and requires the production of 300,000 parts.

Rafale exports have intensified, with orders from Serbia, Indonesia, and especially India, which could become the world's leading operator outside France.

Dassault is investing in AI and preparing the Rafale F5 and the M88 T-Rex engine to enhance its capabilities.

https://x.com/ChurchillWw/status/202190 ... 66747?s=20 ---> France is the only European country with a complete air combat industry chain — engine, radar, integration. The UK has merged, Germany depends on joint programs. The 400 companies exist because Paris has absorbed the cost of this independence for 40 years. It’s a political choice as much as an industrial one.

https://x.com/JeanMichelMIS/status/2021 ... 27368?s=20 ---> Totally agree. Independence comes at a cost, and it's a choice to still be able to control our destiny in this field. Something to ponder for other sectors.

https://x.com/ChurchillWw/status/202191 ... 63305?s=20 ---> Exactly. And the paradox is that this cost is invisible when it works— we only see the ecosystem when we risk losing it. Space and nuclear have followed the same logic in France.

https://x.com/DJulian5348/status/202196 ... 19946?s=20 ---> For info, India is producing more and more parts for the Rafale, and the M88 engine very soon. There’s technology transfer involved. It’s a necessary evil because France alone couldn’t fund its industry, but still an evil all the same.

[bharathp]

Instead of 114 Rafales, we should have got 1,000+ M88 engines and based our Tejas series on it.

I am hoping this will be a viable path for Mk2/AMCA as well.

[Rakesh]

Instead of 114 Rafales, we should have got 1,000+ M88 engines and based our Tejas series on it.

I am hoping this will be a viable path for Mk2/AMCA as well.

We should have followed the Dhruv model for Tejas, till the Kaveri was ready. IMRH also follows the Dhurv model as well.

The AMCA turbofan will be a JV between GTRE and Safran. Perhaps during a MLU for the Tejas Mk1A fleet, we can do a re-engine with the M88 Trex. Because I do not see Kaveri ending up on front line Tejas squadrons.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Tej_Intel/status/2021918326839251378?s=20 ---> Imagine if govt was in mission mode and had spent 3 lakh crore on the Indian military aerospace ecosystem in the last 10 years. We would have a full fledged 4.5 generation aircraft, a 5th gen aircraft and a full range of aero-engines. And a strong pipeline for further iterations.

[Rakesh]

114 Rafales to Join IAF | Why The Rafale Deal Matters

The Indian Ministry of Defence has approved the procurement of 114 additional Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force in a deal valued at approximately ₹3.25 lakh crore. The Defence Acquisition Council, led by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, cleared the acquisition to address the IAF's depleting squadron strength, which has fallen to nearly 30 squadrons. Air Marshal Sanjeev Kapoor (Retd) noted that while 18 jets will arrive in 'fly-away' condition, the remaining 96 will be manufactured in India, potentially creating a second production line alongside HAL. Senior journalist Sandeep Unnithan highlighted that this deal signals France as India's 'strategic partner of choice' for high-end military technology. Defence analyst Colonel Ajay Shukla emphasized the need for a long-term view on fleet rationalisation. The project aims for 40-50% indigenous content, supporting the 'Atmanirbhar Bharat' initiative while countering regional aerial threats. The final approval now rests with the Cabinet Committee on Security chaired by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

[Rakesh]

The Rafale Roar: Rs 3.25 Lakh Crore Slap On Cynics

India has approved a proposal worth Rs 3.25 lakh crore to procure 114 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF), marking the biggest defence acquisition in the country's history. The clearance was granted by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), chaired by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, which accorded Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) to the programme. The decision comes ahead of French President Emmanuel Macron's forthcoming official visit to New Delhi.

[uddu]

But yet you are okay with importing another 24 more

Since Rafale is bad, we should not purchase any more Rafale. Also retire the 36 we have now and cancel the 26 order for the Navy.

Cancel everything. Because what you said above is equally true for the confirmed Rafales we have in service or on order.

What I am saying is importing anything is bad. Rafale indeed is a very good fighter. Same is our own Tejas. Tejas MK2 can outdo the Rafale in many areas. We must be doing things on our own and inducting our own fighters. Why I suggested few more squadrons is because of the IAF. A slight delay in indigenous program and they go into panic mode. It's a mindset problem. There are no issues with S-400 delay, no issues with Apache delays, no issues with GE or honeywell engine delays. They ask for perfection, which is how it should be not just with indigenous equipment but with foreign systems as well. So to quell their panic with squadron numbers and to give some room for the team working on indigenous equipment, a tiny bit more Rafale squadrons, until the Tejas MK2 production picks up. Probably both coming together for a year or two will help IAF to decommission some squadrons of outdated fighters much more faster. This will also help us do risk management in terms of some delays from other players if that happens.
Once the MK2 comes into service, we must be in a position to sell the ones in our service to friendly forces or back to France for a profit. Not hold onto them for the next 30 years pumping public money on expensive hardware just to keep them in the force, while the MK2 and AMCA start outdoing Rafale in every aspect with new indigenous capability coming into induction.

[uddu]

Cross posting from Missile forum.
Indian missiles to the rescue of Rafale. Once Gandiva gets inducted, the need to have Rafale vanishes. We must be offering Astra MK2 to France.
DRDO Set to Clear Astra Mk2 for Production with Enhanced 220km Range, Poised to Become IAF's Primary BVRAAM
https://defence.in/threads/drdo-set-to- ... aam.16881/

(DRDO) is preparing to issue production clearance for the Astra Mk2 air-to-air missile later this year.

the missile has demonstrated capabilities far superior to its original design parameters.

it can effectively engage threats at a range of approximately 220 km.

According to defence sources, the missile is being integrated onto a wide variety of aircraft, including the Russian-origin Su-30MKI and MiG-29, as well as the indigenous Tejas Mk1A and the French-origin Rafale.

Reflecting the missile's central role in future air operations, the IAF is projected to place one of the largest single orders for air-to-air missiles in its history.

Sources suggest that the total requirement could exceed 500 units once formal clearance is granted.

The DRDO is scheduled to conduct firing trials of the Astra Mk2 from the Tejas Mk1A fighter later this year, which is a prerequisite for final operational clearance.

Simultaneously, work is progressing to integrate the missile with the Rafale fleet. Successful integration on the Rafale would be a landmark achievement, proving India’s ability to network indigenous weaponry with sophisticated foreign avionics.

Furthermore, the missile is being adapted for the Indian Navy’s MiG-29K fighters, expanding its operational footprint to carrier-based maritime aviation.