India tests Prithvi based ABM-3

George J · Post by **George J** » 02 Dec 2006 01:11

Eh we are all jingos. All jingos seek more knowledge. There are very few superjingos* and even they will privately admit that there is a lot thats is not known in open source or that they cant talk about since its NOT open source. Hence whats available is only parts of the story.

So superjingos cant really tell you everything and now we have a breed of oraclites who have formed very strong defence/national security policy opinions with absolutely no basis or fractions of the true information and no regards to history and yet want to use BRF as a platform to fart about it. Tough luck. And that really adds to the discussion?

Now I dont have time for a lot of things. But if I am interested in something I will make sure I read up about it at every opportunity I get. If you seem to forget things then its your loss, I try to remember/recall as much as I can especially if I have something emphatic to say about it. And I try my best not to eat crow after April 2002 (it was all Kapil's fault).
___________________________________
*those who actually do this for a living and hence are source of absolute truth if they state something emphatically. You can be a superjingo in certain fundamental areas like physics, electronics even healthcare if you do that stuff for a living, but that does not mean you know everything about India's nuclear program or about DRDO projects or India's Health policy. Does it?

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 02 Dec 2006 01:13

Austin:

Scan request vikrams.br gmail

akutcher · Post by **akutcher** » 02 Dec 2006 01:18

George J wrote:I didnt say I think that BRF is a think tank. That's the problem with oraclized newbies...not only do they NOT understand the virtues of being well read/informed but they havent been around long enough to know what half the innuendos mean on BRF. Do you dont even know what Oraclized means? Or who the Oracle is?

Finally what you (and I) believe does not matter. If you spend more time reading BRF than trying to put your foot in your mouth. You would know that most jingos are sensitive to SOURCE of information. E.G if Sandeep Unnithan says something about the IN, we take it at face value coz we know who Unnithan is and know his background. If Prasun Sengupta say that PM told him x, y and z we dont touch it with a 10 foot pole. And as far as Raj Chengappa goes, well his book is considered the bible. So you do understand why some of use get offended when oraclite puts his foot in his mouth (hence an Oraclite)

That's what (used to) make the discussion on BRF so interesting. Understand the source and inherent biases. No one here can emphatically claim that know whats really going on with the IGMDP (well there are but you dont know to worry about it its beyond your comprehension). Its purely open source and our dicussion are only as good as the source (and background which you fail to comprehend). So your "uneducated/ill informed drivel" (copyright JCage) is as good as the next Oraclites.

Now what should be mandatory and whats not. Well I guess you missed the whole point of BRF. And what makes BRF unique (again its bound to happen if you suddenly discover BRF and think you can fart your opinion here without really lurking). We believe (used to believe) that BRF is different from other riff raff because it holds the poster to higher standard of posting (hence the request to summarize the post you are quoting, not using color/fonts etc providing a reliable source).

Its a private forum your ability to post (or put your foot in your mouth) is a privilege not YOUR RIGHT. If you wish to exercise the privilege you need to at least measure up to the tone and tenor of the discussion(s). Which you clearly have not (and you are not alone). But you have all the right to make a fool of yourself so go right ahead. Our rules for banning have become very relaxed now a days who knows you might find a receptive audience for your drivel even on BRF (after all there are lots of Oraclites on board now)

Here is the definition of Oracle straight from Webster's
a) any person or agency believed to be in communication with a deity
b) any person of great knowledge or wisdom

For all that its worth you are only proving yourself to be an oraclite rather than me...... you (and not me) appear to have an opinion that only those who have attained a certain level (which you clearly think you have but i haven't) should be allowed to post on BRF.

you also have this buried inside your head that anyone who is not familiar with the history of every single journo/reporter is an utter idiot, dare i say if you follow this thumb-rule everyone my age will fall in that category...... now if you happen to know that a certain defence journo in India(very few actually exist) does have a lot to his/her credits, and his/her article should be given more weight you could have said so like Ramana (btw thanx sir) and i would have thanked you too for the information, but you went on with your "good old days" speech and used this-
But you have all the right to make a fool of yourself so go right ahead. Our rules for banning have become very relaxed now a days who knows you might find a receptive audience for your drivel even on BRF

Now all you achieved by that is portraying yourself as a self-righteous moron who is incapable of listening to others

to the admins-- my last post on this mine bigger than yours bit

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 02 Dec 2006 01:28

Austin,

Scan request

Thanks

vishalb · Post by **vishalb** » 02 Dec 2006 01:31

its moments like these that make me really look forward to that "ignore user" feature that has been in the pipeline for a while now.. it would make a great new years gift

bhavin · Post by **bhavin** » 02 Dec 2006 01:39

ak, if you lurk long enough - you will know what Oracle / Oraclite actually refers to. *Hint - it is not what webster's says - They are a special brand of people residing in particular forum (not BRF)* The derision that GeorgeJ attaches to this particular name is due to the nature/direction of their discussion.

George J · Post by **George J** » 02 Dec 2006 01:40

akutcher wrote:Here is the definition of Oracle straight from Webster's
a) any person or agency believed to be in communication with a deity
b) any person of great knowledge or wisdom

.................

Now all you achieved by that is portraying yourself as a self-righteous moron who is incapable of listening to others

to the admins-- my last post on this mine bigger than yours bit

See I told you guys this place is getting Oraclized and still no one listen.

Kutcherji:

Well I dont even know if I am allowed to "post" what/who an Oracle is. We might get sued by the Oracle itself. Suffice to say that Oracle refers to the "Oracle of Twu BVR" which was coined on another forum to address an individual who had an equally self confident view about his ill concieved/ill informed opinions and inferences like you do.

What is Twu BVR? Under this super duper philosophy its not true BVR if the bandit knows that its being attacked and the missiles cannot cross international boundries even if fired from BVR ranges!!!!

So now when you see ppl say the forum is getting Oraclized it means its getting dumbed down (well its not even dumbing down its literally oraclized).

But I can understand why you thought the way you did. I didnt expect you to know that (coz like I said we now have few lurkers and more have computer will fart types) Its still not too late. If your 20 year old ego permits. Take some time off and lurk on BRF (archives and all). Your own knowledge about stuff will increase geometrically (but then you already know more than Raj Chengappa does)

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 02 Dec 2006 01:42

Austin Bhai
Apun bhi fokut mein Article mangta.

nsnpindi at yahoo.co.in

Ravi · Post by **Ravi** » 02 Dec 2006 01:43

Sir Austin

Please do forward me the article.

ravi_mv1 at yahoo

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 02 Dec 2006 01:46

Austin:

Could you kindly forward article plz.

shyamdurai at gmail dot com

Thx in advance

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 02 Dec 2006 01:56

Austin,

Can send it to me too? vivdhruv at gmail dot com.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 02 Dec 2006 01:58

The India today article is same as the Gurdian article. IT has some more paragraphs, they are these. Admin if you think this is voilation, please feel frree to delete.

Almost out of a James Bond flick, the two blips on the screen closed in on each other rapidly and on touching, exploded in a shower of dots. Soon after the launch, DRDO's chief controller for missiles and the programme director for air defence systems, Dr V.K. Saraswat, told INDIA TODAY: "This test signals India's entry into the area of sophisticated and complex missile defence technology."

The interceptor missile, too, had to be designed and built from scratch. Its first stage is similar to that of the Prithvi and uses its liquid fuel engine. But for the second-stage 'kill vehicle', a powerful solid motor was developed apart from divert thrusters that gives it a high degree of manoeuvrability. It makes the missile a metre longer than the nine-m Prithvi. The interceptor is also equipped with terminal homing guidance system with an RF (radar frequency) seeker to detect targets at long range of low radar cross-section and travelling at high speeds. As important was the development of a communications network by Bharat Electronics to integrate the radars and the interceptors with the mission control centre.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 02 Dec 2006 02:34

Thanks Austin

BTW PAD 01= Prithvi Air Defence?????? or I am too late.

akutcher · Post by **akutcher** » 02 Dec 2006 02:37

George J wrote:

See I told you guys this place is getting Oraclized and still no one listen.

Kutcherji:

Well I dont even know if I am allowed to "post" what/who an Oracle is. We might get sued by the Oracle itself. Suffice to say that Oracle refers to the "Oracle of Twu BVR" which was coined on another forum to address an individual who had an equally self confident view about his ill concieved/ill informed opinions and inferences like you do.

What is Twu BVR? Under this super duper philosophy its not true BVR if the bandit knows that its being attacked and the missiles cannot cross international boundries even if fired from BVR ranges!!!!

So now when you see ppl say the forum is getting Oraclized it means its getting dumbed down (well its not even dumbing down its literally oraclized).

But I can understand why you thought the way you did. I didnt expect you to know that (coz like I said we now have few lurkers and more have computer will fart types) Its still not too late. If your 20 year old ego permits. Take some time off and lurk on BRF (archives and all). Your own knowledge about stuff will increase geometrically (but then you already know more than Raj Chengappa does)

Wow.... i though that i wouldnt reply to another one your post and divert this thread from the actual topic of disucssion, but hey special situations demand special attention right

Let me get this oracle theory of yours. My english aint super-duper but this is what i get, as per you BRF getting oraclized means idiots flooding this source of knowledge with irrelevant hogwash, right?....... Now lets put that on hold and rewind a bit shall we

1)someone posted a link which provided a whole lot of information which no other media source talked about, and was outrightly contradictory to everything else people had been discussing for the past 3 days
2)some people (for whatever reason i was unaware of) assume that to be absolutely true
3)Then I dared to challenge the gods by posting on this forum as to why people believe this article when its amply clear that DRDO does not want specs released(btw i believe they are capable of secrecy)
4)Ramana sir came in and gave me the reason why this article may be more than just speculation
5)After that you came in and started your whole who should/shouldnt be allowed to post coz they havent read WOP/WOF and how i am dumbing down BRF
6)I replied by stating its not an eligibility crieteria to read WOP/WOF and if anyone feels so he/she should suggest that to the admins
7)You then harped upon the "good old days on BRF" and how you and your intellectual buddies (whoever they maybe) used to maintain the level of discussions, and you added to your eligibility crieteria deal as to why everyone must read the biography of every reporter
8)With whatever level of intellect i have tried to prove that you have a superiority complex which needs to be addressed, and tried to get the discussion back on topic by ending this stupidity
9)you again went on calling every newbie a dumbass or something with your "what oracle means on BRF" bit

Now when i look at this i feel that the moment you entered discussion (point-5 onwards) there have been no exchanges on the DRDO's new ABM which i and everyone else is here for, but we are all listening to your(and mine) rant..... your whole point is i am dumbing down BRF, but pls tell me how have your posts enlightened the readers??

Coming back to your oracle theory..... didnt i concur with you by calling you an oraclite, or a breed of people who have little knowledge/substance but pretend to be the source of all wisdom

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Dec 2006 02:43

Yeah. Also I think the final version will be 2m longer. Also note the plan for a dozen radars. To put things in prespective, thetest was at 50km ~ 160,000 ft. And the 100km desired altitude means ~320000 ft high. Quite high. And note the 4th country to do so.

ShibaPJ · Post by **ShibaPJ** » 02 Dec 2006 03:00

Austin,
Pls mail me the scanned IT article...

shibapj@gmail.com

Tilak · Post by **Tilak** » 02 Dec 2006 03:10

George J,

You are 656% right onlee.

"Oraclized-non hindu growth rate curbing version of BRF"

, doesn't look tempting to me. So this is a request, please do come out of your self imposed exile/sabbatical.

-------

Here are a few Intercept/Kill videos. May be they can help, put things in perspective [wrt. DD video].

# Arrow - August 20 - 1996 - Intercept/Kill (8.3MB) [MOV]
# Ground-based Midcourse Defense (28.5MB) [MOV]
# PATRIOT Advanced Capability-3(20.8MB) [MOV]
# Thaad[Google Video] {Taken from an aircraft, possibly ??}

Source : This sitehas a lot of material [Fact Sheets, Images, Videos].

PS : The DD video appeared to be a collage. [AFAIK]

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 02 Dec 2006 04:38

Can someone please post a link to the video of the ABM test?
I could not find the link.

Thanks

Nalla Baalu · Post by **Nalla Baalu** » 02 Dec 2006 04:50

VikramS wrote:Can someone please post a link to the video of the ABM test?

VikramS. Unfortunately, AFAIK, there is no video with desirable portions of the ABM test. All we have got on the forum is several screen-shots of the test from ddnews.com (sans interception/interceptor), in an earlier version of this thread.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 02 Dec 2006 04:52

Tilak wrote: Here are a few Intercept/Kill videos. May be they can help, put things in perspective [wrt. DD video].

And some more perspective and comparison.

Aegis test in 2003

The Aegis Weapon System guided the first, second, and third stages of the SM-3 to a position to perform an intercept of the target. After ejection from the SM-3 third stage, the kinetic warhead acquired, tracked, and diverted directly into the target at an altitude of 137 kilometers, and at a closing speed of approximately 3.7 kilometers per second.

Elsewhere on another site it is stated that this system has an intercept range out to 300 miles at a maximum altitude of 100 miles.

ShibaPJ · Post by **ShibaPJ** » 02 Dec 2006 05:09

Austin,

Received your email. Much thanks... It looks so majestic. It also puts to rest if it is some old image. It has 'pad01' printed over it (Unless some soul comes up with this being PS and all)

Nalla Baalu · Post by **Nalla Baalu** » 02 Dec 2006 05:26

ShibaPJ, can you confirm if the image you are referring to is same as what has been posted in this thread's first page by Gerard?

Tilak · Post by **Tilak** » 02 Dec 2006 05:51

Austin/ShibaPJ

Thanks !

<edited>

VikramS,

shyamd, tag and tube ??.

<duck>

Nalla Baalu · Post by **Nalla Baalu** » 02 Dec 2006 06:01

Austin, ShibaPJ et al!

While I have electronic version, I cannot wait until I get paper copy in mail to take a peek at higher resolution image(s). So please include me in the mailing list for the india today article:

Added later: Gaat it! Many thanks.

ShibaPJ · Post by **ShibaPJ** » 02 Dec 2006 06:06

NB,

Yes, it is the same one, but much clearer.. If you don't get it soon, let us know, & some of the early birds would pass on the scans

Tilak,
Beautiful videos.. Thanks. Particularly the one where the BM with mid-course correction one is taken out is my pic.. Simply awesome...

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 02 Dec 2006 09:05

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 02 Dec 2006 09:14

Tilak wrote:Austin/ShibaPJ

Thanks !

<edited>

VikramS,

shyamd, tag and tube ??.
<duck>

Getting old tilak. cant find anything on utube or google video. send gmail please

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Dec 2006 09:42

Austin, Thanks, ramana

It clarifies a lot. Again one picture is worth a thousand words to those who can see.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 02 Dec 2006 10:32

Austin,

once more to:
br.jingo at gmail dot com

TIA.

rocky · Post by **rocky** » 02 Dec 2006 11:03

Austin, rockyvivendi at yahoo dot ca please. Thanks in advance.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 02 Dec 2006 11:03

Picked-up a copy of IndiaToday last night on the way back from work.. very intriguing is what i can say.. since Austin has already passed on the scan to interested people - i am chilling out.. but if someone needs it i will host it on rapidshare or somewhere...

now the story:

1. The narrative of RajChengappa is in direct speech and the tone makes the reader feel as though RC had been to ITR and witnessed the test.. that along with the photo on the first page are 'convincing' enough to believe a (heavily) "modified Prithvi" was used as the ABM.

I tried to take a very close look at the alleged picture of PAD01 and it looks real as well as PS job.. the graphic work on the missle etc make it look real.. but the edges of mid-body fins & the sea being too close to the launch site (looks like a stone's throw away).. also there is a structure too close to missile launch site -- make me think it is a very well-done PS job.

2. A graphic on the second page describes the test.. Lo.. it is almost a three-stage vehicle - i mean there are two stage separation events... and the total untapepred cylindrical portio (~7m) contains two stages (alomost equal length) -- one liq & one solid..

- lift-off and then first stage (liquid) stage separates just below mid-body fins
- second stage (solid) takes the kil-vehicle further.. and then separates
- kill vehicle goes on and then detonates its RF fuze

(If RajChegappa had been tp ITR and got the picture on 1st page from there or directly from DRDO, it is vry much possible that the graphic sequence of events also he got from them and are authentic.. or both are PSed)

Now the questions/doubts:

1. if you see the PAD01 photo as closely as possible, I could not see any evidence or possibility for stage separation just below the fins as claimed in the article

2. is it easy work to compress all the liq-fuel subsytems into half-the-length of Prithvi to make the first stage as shown? its like the original prithvi had a 6m long booster stage.. in this test they used a ~4m long liq-fuel stage according to the graphic

3. If they have managed to configure a reduced length liq-fuel stage and then managed to add a new solid-fuel second stage -- then it amounts to a lot of redesign and rework and offers no advantage of using Prithvi in the first place & only increases complexity by using two different motors (both new), stage separation complexity to name a few..

they could have simply gone with a solid-fuel booster for both stages or a single solid booster ~6-7m long..

I hope Arun got his copy of the scan.. eagerly waiting for his analysis

PS: as there are too may email ID/request posts, admins may take to cleaning the thread-up.. For people looking for the article -- someone posted a megaupload link to the scan in Indian Missile news section in forum keypublishing (post #188)

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 02 Dec 2006 12:15

wouldn't normally do this, but these are exciting times, and a lot of people are interested in the article. I suggest visiting bugmenot.com for access to india today site article. I am sure people here can figure out how this works.

mods please forgive me, just trying to quench the thirst.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 02 Dec 2006 12:50

George J wrote:So superjingos cant really tell you everything and now we have a breed of oraclites who have formed very strong defence/national security policy opinions with absolutely no basis or fractions of the true information and no regards to history and yet want to use BRF as a platform to fart about it. Tough luck. And that really adds to the discussion?

Now I dont have time for a lot of things. But if I am interested in something I will make sure I read up about it at every opportunity I get. If you seem to forget things then its your loss, I try to remember/recall as much as I can especially if I have something emphatic to say about it. And I try my best not to eat crow after April 2002.

Wisdom speak.

While I am also amused at few selling snake oil

. Empty vessel make more noise.

I hope Arun got his copy of the scan.. eagerly waiting for his analysis

Saahib, It was a very bijji day. Just saw the diagrams.

Nothing earth shattering. The missile cut out was strange, for it shows thinner motors inside. Much like fox hiding in sheep-skin. Not sure if is deliberate obfuscation.

The first stage is upto the mid-section clipped delta wings, and after separation the second stage takes over and the missile looks like a SAM with thick fins. After second stage separation, the KV is shown firing up with a pair of parallel thruster cartidges mounted along the long axis of missile (much like High Alt Thrusters of Agni). The missile cone stays put as part of KV all along.

Pls note that at 50Km altitude the atmospheric propoerties are:

Local temperature: -3 degree C (the air warms up again)

Pressure & Air density: 0.08 % of sea-level

The supersonic air drag is just 0.07% of that at sea level.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 02 Dec 2006 13:03

rakall wrote:Picked-up a copy of IndiaToday last night on the way back from work.. very intriguing is what i can say.. since Austin has already passed on the scan to interested people - i am chilling out.. but if someone needs it i will host it on rapidshare or somewhere...

A copy of scan here also pleaze

druks@rediffmail.com

Santosh · Post by **Santosh** » 02 Dec 2006 13:15

Austin/Raj/Cy/any of the prev recepients - ssantosh71 at yahoo dot com please. TIA.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 02 Dec 2006 13:55

That diagram in India today does not match the text. The article speaks of the second stage kill vehicle. The artist who came up with the computer generated image, made the "powerful solid motor" as part of the main body and broke the missile up.
I cant see any seam in PAD01 image to show that it has a second stage beginning just below the fins.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 02 Dec 2006 14:25

JCage wrote:That diagram in India today does not match the text. The article speaks of the second stage kill vehicle. The artist who came up with the computer generated image, made the "powerful solid motor" as part of the main body and broke the missile up.
I cant see any seam in PAD01 image to show that it has a second stage beginning just below the fins.

Exactly..

JC -- do u think the photo onthe 1st page is real or PSed?

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 02 Dec 2006 15:27

I assume it is real. IT tomtoms it as such, and the entire article appears to be (as you noted), written as if RajC observed the test himself.
Wouldnt make sense for them to PS it, and claim that it was theinterceptor. The missile looks like a standard Prithvi to boot.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 02 Dec 2006 16:30

Got it Austin. Thanks!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Dec 2006 19:16

The interceptor looks more like a plain vanila Prithvi , rather than a real interceptor, IOW it looks to me like a target missile.

And the graphics looks like an artistic impression , on how the interceptor looked like and how it would have worked based on the conversation the writer must have had with the scientist rather than real thing,

The radar is clearly a new Green Pine Derivative , If they jointly managed to develop a 1000Km variant of the Greenpine then its really awesome.

But at this very early stage of development , it makes sense to not revel every thing about the system.

The fact that we are the fourth country to develop the system from scratch , shows there is more to it than what has been reveled

And perhaps the 2nd country in the world to develop a HTK system for ABM