Radar - Specs & Discussions

[Austin]

Is this the LRTR developed by DRDO for the ABM project ?


Image via Force

[JaiS]

Some interesting news about MiG-35's Phazotron AESA radar testing:

1) The full tests are planned to be finished in September 2008
2) The test configurtion of the radar has 575 mm diameter, 680 MMICs and 130-140 km range of detection (RCS isnt specified)
3) For Indian MRCA tender however will be offered the radar in its full -power configuration with 1064 modules and 250-280 km range.
4) Each MMIC power is 5W.
Source

[KiranM]

Hi Admins,
My office is near LRDE. I have seen a particular radar (cant quite figure out which radar) being tested on an elevated rig a couple of times. I have clicked 2 pics of the radar using my mobile. Will it be haram to upload them here? If not how can I upload them without eating into my bandwidth?

[chetak]

Hi Admins,
My office is near LRDE. I have seen a particular radar (cant quite figure out which radar) being tested on an elevated rig a couple of times. I have clicked 2 pics of the radar using my mobile. Will it be haram to upload them here? If not how can I upload them without eating into my bandwidth?

With all due respect to you,
is it really required to post such things on a public forum?
My two cents

[KiranM]

Chetak, the radar is seen clearly from all surrounding buildings. It is public. LRDE is right next to a techpark. Dont know how my 'revelation' is in anyway of harm. And what sensitive details did I reveal? I havent even put up the pics. If I am missing something here please tell me.

[Rahul M]

kiran, honestly I think you have done nothing yet to be booked under the OSA !

what kind of radar was it, could you describe it ?
I would however discourage you from posting pics.

[k prasad]

Chetak, the radar is seen clearly from all surrounding buildings. It is public. LRDE is right next to a techpark. Dont know how my 'revelation' is in anyway of harm. And what sensitive details did I reveal? I havent even put up the pics. If I am missing something here please tell me.

Best not to post.... having lived there for some years, you kinda understand the DRDO attitude.. the scientists are quite open about their work with each other, and they expect all citizens to be as patriotic as they are.

The Software parks coming up right next to LRDE are actually a HUGE security problem (job security included!). There was a stink raised about how LRDE and the EMO (Estate Management Officer) gave clearance for such constructions, and transferred some of the land to the tech parks (which have been built by SM Krishna's son-in-law). A lot of people in the two places now have a couple of posh houses.

[Dileep]

KiranM, could you answer some questions offline please? e-mail me dileepks on gmail?

[KiranM]

Hi folks,
Due to popular request I will not be uploading the pics anywhere. Also I will be deleting the pics I have.

Dileep, you have mail.

Rahul, I have seen 2 different radars on the rig.
First looked like 3D-CAR. Planar array but rotating. (Pardon my ignorance, looks like PESA but not sure if PESA rotates)
Second looked like a conventional radar. More or less like Indra. But it didnt have that much of a curvature as Indra.

[chetak]

Chetak, the radar is seen clearly from all surrounding buildings. It is public. LRDE is right next to a techpark. Dont know how my 'revelation' is in anyway of harm. And what sensitive details did I reveal? I havent even put up the pics. If I am missing something here please tell me.

Best not to post.... having lived there for some years, you kinda understand the DRDO attitude.. the scientists are quite open about their work with each other, and they expect all citizens to be as patriotic as they are.

The Software parks coming up right next to LRDE are actually a HUGE security problem (job security included!). There was a stink raised about how LRDE and the EMO (Estate Management Officer) gave clearance for such constructions, and transferred some of the land to the tech parks (which have been built by SM Krishna's son-in-law). A lot of people in the two places now have a couple of posh houses.

Brother,
The constitution gives you the right to post these pictures if you want.
That said, a lot of parameters can be inferred and approximated from radar antennae pictures by anyone familiar with them. If I was in LRDE I would at least have covered the contraptions with a suitable cloth.The tests would not be affected unless raining and even then maybe not depending on the type of antenna.
Ever seen pictures of submarines out of the water? The propellers are always covered. Do you think subs are shy?
While I do admit that idiots have cleared the adjacent techpark buildings and for a consideration I am very sure, posting such pictures on a public forum only widens the audience and increases the chances of some unsavory lurking individuals picking it up. Why aid and comfort our enemies?
Scientists themselves are often careless and callous. For instance, in some DRDO labs I have seen submarine acoustic signature recordings from our own subs left casually lying around. The Navy freaked and very rightly so. When the scientists were cautioned, we got the same argument, " what is the harm?, you are paranoid etc etc " type of reactions.
In any navy, such info is guarded with life but for some scientists who could not be bothered about such mundane issues it was passe.
Our neighbors would willingly sacrifice many tens of men to obtain these recordings.
Enemy Subs lurk in all waters the world over, just to record such signatures.
For the Navy, its a matter of life and death.
Its still your call.

[k prasad]

I was doing a bit of research & news-hunting to improve the WLR page on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapon_Locating_Radar), and noticed something odd.

This MoD Press release from July 2003 (http://pib.nic.in/archieve/lreleng/lyr2 ... 00336.html) mentions that the first WLR prototype would be built by April 2004. But by then, wasnt the WLR already unveiled at AI-03??

Can some guru here clear this up? Coz I clearly remember seeing the WLR in 2003; pretty much everything looked done, including the displays inside, processing algorithm and the array.

[Anujan]

Is this the LRTR developed by DRDO for the ABM project ?


Image via Force

From: Rheinmetall's site

Rheinmetall Defence and BAE Systems work in cooperation for the active long-range radar for the German Air Force

Rheinmetall Defence and BAE Systems recently signed a memorandum of understanding (MOU) to equip the German Air Force Tactical Air Command and Control Service with active long-range radar systems (project Ared), both companies announced at Eurosatory 2008 in Paris.

So no.

[JaiS]

Detailed analysis and information about the Zhuk - AE.

[K Mehta]

Bharani radar : image by Ajai shukla

The DRDO's Bharani Low Level Light Weight (LLLW) radar, which covers gaps in an integrated air defence ground radar network. The radar, which has a range of 40 km against low level intruders, is vehicle portable.

[Kakarat]

BEL Hands Over State of The Art ‘Rohini’ Radar to IAF, ARMY TRIALS OF THE 3-D RADAR VARIANT A SUCCESS AND NAVAL VERSION IN OFFING SAYS CMD, BEL - PIB
Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL), a Defence Public Sector Undertaking, today handed over the first of the 3-dimensional radar ‘Rohini’ to the Indian Air Force. Shri VVR Sastry, Chairman-and-Managing Director, BEL handed over a ceremonial key to the Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major at a function in BEL, Ghaziabad marking its induction into the IAF.

The state-of-the-art Multifunction Medium Range Surveillance Radar has been developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), Bangalore and engineered and produced by BEL. It is capable of handling multiple targets simultaneously and also precisely calculate the height at which the projectiles are flying. Mounted on “Tetra’ mobile platform, a heavy duty modified truck built by the public sector Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML) and supported by an auxiliary mobile power unit, it enables the Rohini to be easily transported to the battlefront.

Speaking on the occasion the chief guest Air Chief Marshal Major said the radar would grant the IAF better air surveillance capability, particularly at low altitudes. Operating in a range of upto 170 kilometres and an altitude of 15 kilometres, the radar can track multiple targets like fighter jets and missiles travelling at supersonic speeds of over 3,000 kms per hour, viz around Mach 3. The radar employs an array of Electronic Counter Counter Measure (ECCM) features including frequency agility and jammer analysis. A Secondary Surveillance Radar, IFF, is integrated with the primary radar Rohini, which distinguishes friendly and hostile aircraft.

Handing over the radar, Shri Sastry said he expects around 100 pieces would be built, with around 20 radars being manufactured every year. He said the army has conducted successful trials of a Rohini variant for detecting and tracking missiles. Another variant, ‘Revathi’, is being developed for the Navy, he added. Shri Sastry assured the forces that the BEL has surplus capacity to undertake serialized production and its manufacturing facilities were being currently utilized only to an extent of 70 percent. For the first time the IAF has also awarded an Annual Maintenance Contract for the Rohini radars to the BEL.

Shri M. Natarajan, Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister and Secretary, Defence R&D, said the Rohini radar is a shining example of the defence-industry synergies, the new age objective of the DRDO. Private sector pioneers Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and Astra Microwave have collaborated with the BEL and DRDO to provide ancillary inputs to development of the Rohini radar, which is almost indigenously developed barring minor critical components. Shri S. Varadarajan, Director, LRDE said changes would be incorporated into the radar time to time based on end user feedback.

[Austin]

So no.

Thanks , FORCE seems to paste any image , gave an impression that it was LRTR

[Rahul M]

from the above article:

Mounted on “Tetra’ mobile platform, a heavy duty modified truck built by the public sector Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML) and supported by an auxiliary mobile power unit, it enables the Rohini to be easily transported to the battlefront.

is this some new version of tatra or a case of DDM infecting PIB ?

[SaiK]

Detailed analysis and information about the Zhuk - AE.

There can be absolutely no doubt that Phazotron will aggressively market the Zhuk ASE as an upgrade package into the established Flanker market, which could be as large as 500 aircraft in China alone.

and at max 350nm range with 30w t/rs.. and a detection of 0.01 rcs at 100nm is darn good at chinks hand.

interesting, should the zhuk folks should consider a tot with a plausible tie up with India, for a joint dev of later generation including the AlGaN based t/rs.

[Rahul M]

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/08/ia ... lance.html

IAF gets first Rohini 3D-Surveillance Radar

aroor's blog.

[rkhanna]

Is the Rohini AESA? Somebody "in the know" recently told me that India is experimenting with a Reverse Engineered GreenPine (with Israeli Help) and it was part of the AAD/PAD test. Is the Rohini the same?

[MN Kumar]

Is the Rohini AESA? Somebody "in the know" recently told me that India is experimenting with a Reverse Engineered GreenPine (with Israeli Help) and it was part of the AAD/PAD test. Is the Rohini the same?

I strongly object to the use of the bolded term. When you involve the developers in doing this its called "Improvised or Modified". The bolded term suits well to our good neighbors to the east.

[krishnan]

Is the Rohini AESA? Somebody "in the know" recently told me that India is experimenting with a Reverse Engineered GreenPine (with Israeli Help) and it was part of the AAD/PAD test. Is the Rohini the same?

Why would israel help us in reverse engineering their own product

[Mihir.D]

Thats the 3d-CAR with 170 KM range correct ? Whats GreenPine got to do with it ? BTW ... can this baby track tactical ballistic missiles ? Rather can the Akash do a patriot and shoot down scuds ?

[p_saggu]

Check out Barnala on Google Earth. The EL/M-2083 aerostat radar is now visible in High res.
30.25.27.30 N
75.33.15.73 E

[Rahul M]

from wiki page on DRDO

The 3D medium range Central Acquisition Radar, a state of the art planar array, S Band radar operating on the stacked beam principle. With a range of 180 km against fighter sized targets, it can track while scan 200 of them. Its systems are integrated on high mobility, locally built TATRA trucks for the Army and Air Force; however the CAR design is meant to be used by all three services. The Planar array was codeveloped by DRDO with a European firm with both the DRDO and the firm sharing design rights, whereas the rest of the hardware and signal processing were done locally. Initially developed for the long running Akash SAM system, the radar tasted success, when seven were ordered by the Indian Air Force for their radar modernization program, and two of another variant were ordered by the Indian Navy for their P-28 Corvettes. Since 4-6 P-28 Corvettes are ultimately planned, additional orders for the CAR are very likely, once the Navy finalizes its production run. The CAR has been a significant success for radar development in India, with its state of the art signal processing hardware. The order for 9 ROHINI radars by the IAF is worth Rs 360 crores, or approximately 81 million USD at 2006 prices.[22] The ROHINI is the IAF specific variant while the REVATHI is the Indian Navy specific variant. The ROHINI has a more advanced Indian developed antenna in terms of power handling and beamforming technology compared to the 3D CAR while the REVATHI adds two axis stabilisation for operation in naval conditions, as well as extra naval modes.

the green pine thingy you are talking about is the Long Range Tracking Radar. It is similar to the greenpine but exceeds its abilities IIRC. ELTA assisted in development of LRTR.

[rkhanna]

Thanks Rahul.

anybody know how far AESA Tech has progressed in India? .. At AI05 LRDE had some T/R Modules on Display? The LRTR is AESA im assuming is the Tech going to Filter down to the Navy As well?

[Rahul M]

Thanks Rahul.

anybody know how far AESA Tech has progressed in India? .. At AI05 LRDE had some T/R Modules on Display? The LRTR is AESA im assuming is the Tech going to Filter down to the Navy As well?

for AAW ship do you mean ?? not in the near future, needs bigger platforms than 7000 t IMO.

[Rahul M]

Thats the 3d-CAR with 170 KM range correct ? Whats GreenPine got to do with it ? BTW ... can this baby track tactical ballistic missiles ? Rather can the Akash do a patriot and shoot down scuds ?

if you mean GW1 version of patriots, they failed to down any !

[Anujan]

Thanks Rahul.

anybody know how far AESA Tech has progressed in India? .. At AI05 LRDE had some T/R Modules on Display? The LRTR is AESA im assuming is the Tech going to Filter down to the Navy As well?

rkhanna-saar,

Depends on which directions Navy wants to go. There have been news articles floating around that the corvettes are going to have a naval version of 3D CAR (Revathi I think) and the P-15a destroyers are going with MFSTAR (IIRC, gurus please correct me). I dont know if there is going to be yet another radar

[Baljeet]

Thats the 3d-CAR with 170 KM range correct ? Whats GreenPine got to do with it ? BTW ... can this baby track tactical ballistic missiles ? Rather can the Akash do a patriot and shoot down scuds ?

if you mean GW1 version of patriots, they failed to down any !

Rahul
They failed to shoot down missiles but they sure as hell shot down some British pilots in their tornados. Even F-16's were only saved by the bell.

[Rahul M]

^^^
something you won't get to hear on discovery channel's "future weapons" !!

[Gagan]

Wasn't there a picture with the ADS with an AESA? Any info on that. The BRF ADS page does not have any.
The picture in the ADS page shows four fixed radars like the SPY radars and one rotatable one (Like the one on Cavour)

[pkudva]

150 KM's according to my info, but still not a bad range at all. I think it can be mounted in Ships as well as Air Force Bases. But tell me guys since all these form an strategic asset to the country can be just believethe Kn's mentioned as genuine and real.

It can be more also.

[rad]

Most probably the radar we developed with the French for the anti ballistic missile system would be a version similar to the Master M3R AESA radar . The picture of the radar depicted in this page is the Master M radar which is a planar radar.

[PaulJI]

if you mean GW1 version of patriots, they failed to down any !

Rahul
They failed to shoot down missiles but they sure as hell shot down some British pilots in their tornados. Even F-16's were only saved by the bell.

Shot down exactly one Tornado, & in 2003. None in 1991.

Patriot missiles intercepted (i.e the warhead exploded within its theoretical lethal range) most of the Scuds fired at Saudi Arabia & Israel in the 1990-91 war, but intercepting a ballistic missile isn't necessarily enough to prevent it doing damage. Once it's on its downwards trajectory, the best you can do is destroy or disable its warhead so that it doesn't explode on impact, & deflect it so that it lands somewhere where it won't do much damage. If you intercept it late, & cause it to break up, the resulting cloud of debris will act like a giant shotgun round, & may actually do more damage than the warhead would have done if it exploded. In at least one case in Saudi Arabia, this definitely happened, & one Israeli comparison reckons that 11 Scuds which were intercepted caused more damage than 13 which weren't. There was also a case in Israel of Patriots which missed their targets landing in an urban area & causing significant casualties: a death & dozens of injured.

US analysis suggests that about 40% of Scuds & their Iraqi derivatives launched against Israel were "successfully" intercepted (i.e. disabled & deflected so that they did less damage than if they'd been left alone), & 70% of those aimed at Saudi Arabia, but this analysis is controversial, & note that much of the difference is due to the targets attacked by Scuds in Saudi Arabia mostly being smaller than in Israel, & surrounded by largely empty desert, so a limited deflection was more likely to be counted as successful. Deflect a missile so it hits a different part of a city than it was aimed at, & you've not achieved anything worthwhile.

It's been pretty solidly established (at least, to the satisfaction of the US GAO) that the 158 Patriots fired (usually more than one against each Scud) Patriots destroyed the warheads of 8 out of 86 Scuds (40 against Israel, 46 against Saudi Arabia) fired by Iraq. The US army claims a lot more, but according to the GAO analysis, there isn't enough evidence to verify those claims. Nobody was devoting much effort to collecting evidence at the time: too busy.

So there it is: Patriots did intercept a lot of Scuds. They did shoot some down - but nobody really knows how many. And it's not really known whether in doing so they prevented more damage & casualties than they caused.

[negi]

BM interception via ABM's is all about preventing the incoming missile from hitting the intended target , for all practical purposes if Patriot has been able to protect the intended target to me it is a successful interception. SRBM's or other tactical short range BM's do not allow for a high altitude interception (exo-atm) and hence problem of debris/fuselage parts hitting civilian areas is unavoidable.

Point being in case of a TBM/SRBM strike (where most of the contemporary ones follow a quasi ballistic trajectory) the kill box will be probably too close to the target , in this case Patriot and similar systems at best protect the high valued target , however damage to the nearby civilian areas from the debris is possible.

[andy B]

The Patriots used in Gulf War 91 were fitted with a HE warhead.
But the latest version uses HTK warheads. Now with the HE warhead they had collateral damage bcoz of the aforementioned "Shotgun" effect.
However how would the HTK variant perform, I dont know whether it completely disintegrates the targeted warhead in the atmosphere, but i would suppose that it definately would change the trajectory and direction.....Unkil took the lessons from the Gulf War and went in for HTK??? Gurus any comments????

[SaiK]

The AN/ALR-94 is a passive receiver system capable of detecting the radar signals in the environment. Composed of more than 30 antennas smoothly blended into the wings and fuselage

q: can such passive receiver system be used for targetting / scan & lock on? is there a way to know by just a quick burst in the direction obtained from the passive receiver, and then do a diff to know the exact positions? possible?

[KiranM]

Hi folks,
Due to popular request I will not be uploading the pics anywhere. Also I will be deleting the pics I have.

Dileep, you have mail.

Rahul, I have seen 2 different radars on the rig.
First looked like 3D-CAR. Planar array but rotating. (Pardon my ignorance, looks like PESA but not sure if PESA rotates)
Second looked like a conventional radar. More or less like Indra. But it didnt have that much of a curvature as Indra.

Hi folks,
Saw the second radar today. A much clearer view. Its height on a tripod a bit more than that of an average human. I think it is the BFSR. The cross section was small. May be it is the short range version of it.

[Rahul M]

aroor has some pics on his blog.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/08/ph ... d-new.html