India nuclear news and discussion

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Malayappan
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by Malayappan »

ramana wrote:X-posted...
There is wealth of info in this article even though its poorly written with reporter interjecting own views or other info. Gives a good understanding of what happened in the past and future trajectory.
X-posting from the book review in Sunday's Pioneer of Bharat Karnad's Book India's Nuclear Policy
Indian scientists and engineers have felt motivated to display their competence in the nuclear weapons and missile fields in the face of US-led technology denial regimes. At the core of the Indian nuclear policy, doctrine, strategy and posture is the concept of "credible minimum deterrence" denoting restraint, economical use of resources, and "responsible" state behaviour. The inherent elasticity in the concept, however, permits India to qualitatively and quantitatively augment its nuclear forces as needed.

The book reveals for the first time the military end-user's thinking on nuclear deterrence and doctrine, on the "no first use" principle and the consensus view of the Armed Forces. For instance, the claim of "massive retaliation" by the government may be fine by way of a threat but depending on the provocation, "graduated deterrence" is what will be practiced. Given the lack of political will to take hard decisions in crisis, the political leadership is the weak link in India's deterrence system.

The unreliability of armaments and weaknesses in the support paraphernalia and infrastructure -- like command and control -- notwithstanding, the Strategic Forces Command has put the deterrent in a reasonable condition to respond. Plans for nuclear confrontations with Pakistan and China have been made and targets selected, with only notionally "de-mated" nuclear weapons (given the co-location of the nuclear pits, weapons and the vectors).

With the induction of the indigenous SSBN leased Tu-160 "blackjack" strategic bombers, and the extended 5000 km range Agni IRBM, the strategic triad will be operational by 2012. But in the short to medium term future, a forward maritime strategy will be wielded to deter China .

Given trend-lines, the future is likely to feature nuclear crises with China over the diversion of the Yarlung-Tsangpo (Brahmaputra) River , Tibet, material assistance to rebels in the Indian North-East, and the tussle for energy and other natural resources. The unresolved border dispute provides ready excuse. But India is handicapped. Lacking capabilities for a military offensive in Tibet it has no recourse other than nuclear weapons. But the widening nuclear disparity means it cannot threaten escalation to the nuclear level. Pakistan cannot afford nuclear first use because it cannot survive a retaliatory nuclear salvo. Hence, the punitive Indian "cold start" strategy, aiming for only shallow penetration, can succeed.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by Gerard »

Given Russia's urgent need to increase its own Tu-160 numbers, the prospect of leasing these seems remote.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by Nitesh »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Obam ... 747797.cms

Obama will take forward the Indo-US nuclear deal: Aide
23 Nov 2008, 1643 hrs IST, PTI

NEW DELHI: Terming the Indo-US nuclear deal as the "tipping point" in the new relationship between the two countries, a key aide of President-elect Barack Obama has expressed confidence that the new administration will take forward that agreement and build on it despite initial reservations the Democrat had on the issue.

Former Assistant Secretary of State for South Asia Karl Inderfurth said US would "encourage" India to follow suit if Washington ratified the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT).

Inderfurth hoped that the "significant agreement" concluded by the Bush administration will be pursued by Obama, who is also supporter of the landmark pact between the two countries.

"I think he is a strong supporter of the agreement. So, this agreement to me as I often said that Brajesh Mishra once describe President Clinton's visit to India in March 2000 as a turning point in this new relationship," Inderfurth told Karan Thapar on CNN-IBN's 'Devil's Advocate'.

The Obama aide said he would suggest the Obama administration to "continue, continue and continue" the relationship with India for which a strong foundation was laid by President George W Bush and former President Bill Clinton during his eight-year tenure.

"I would describe the agreement signed and pursued by President Bush and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh as the tipping point. I consider this as fundamental for our new relationship and I have no doubt that the Democratic administration is going to taking this agreement and build on it otherwise as well," he said when asked whether Obama will honour the fuel supplies assurances given by Bush.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by amit »

No need to conduct N-tests to show might: Kalam
Detailing the country's three-stage atomic programme in the magazine, Kalam said, "India is a nuclear-weapon state. The nation should behave like a nuclear-weapon state. We do not have to prove to any country that we are again and again a nuclear-weapon state by doing more nuclear tests, whether they agree or not, whether they recognise or not.

"If they don't recognise it is not our fault; It is not that we are going to lose anything." Kalam, a scientist who played a major role in the 1998 Pokhran tests, said India has "full capability" to deter any nuclear threat by any nation through all means.

"Yes, we should believe in our strength. Strength respects strength. That is what is happening in the process of Indo-US nuclear deal agreement," said the former President who has also replied to questions posed by some students.
"Please note that 123 Agreement is a framework agreement and not an implementing contract. Whenever implementing agreements or contracts are signed between Indian entities and US energy firms, India and US firms have to ensure that they are in accordance with laws and regulations as applicable to them.
"Obviously whatever is not permitted by US laws, will not be signed by US firms. Once the international civil nuclear trade opens up, India can sign contract with several countries," he said in reply to a question asked by a Mumbai school student.
Obviously Kalaam saab's views are his own and there will be other views, including diametrically opposite ones.

However, I seem to recall that, in the run up to the Nuclear deal, Arun Shourie ji had made a statement that, after talking to him, the former President had changed his views on the deal and was now opposed to it.

It would be interesting to know what is Arun Shourie ji's opinion now. I don't recall him ever clarifying his remark once Kaalam came out openly in favour of the deal. I wonder why?

I also remember a post on this thread which praised Kaalam for having the courage to admit his mistake in supporting the deal, all based on what Shourie ji claimed. I think the poster was right in his interpretation as, till then, Shourie ji had a high degree of credibility on the nuclear deal issue.

But then I suppose that's all water down the bridge now.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by Sanku »

Amit ji -- can you please tell me where Kalam Sir has said that the nuclear deal in its current form is good for India? Pls quote a link since I seem to have missed it?
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:Amit ji -- can you please tell me where Kalam Sir has said that the nuclear deal in its current form is good for India? Pls quote a link since I seem to have missed it?
Sanku,

I gave the link to the story right at the beginning. You could have checked yourself and come to your own conclusions.

However, to help you out, here's what Kaalam ji said:
"Certainly," Kalam said, "this nuclear agreement protects India's interest in the nuclear power sector. Separation plan for civil and defence nuclear facility clearly gives the independence in maintaining the strategic decision. Nobody can interfere in our foreign policy.

"We can maintain our strategic autonomy in social, economic and political spheres," he added. Kalam also said the 123 Agreement did not impose constraints on India with regard to signing any contract with firms from other countries.

"Please note that 123 Agreement is a framework agreement and not an implementing contract. Whenever implementing agreements or contracts are signed between Indian entities and US energy firms, India and US firms have to ensure that they are in accordance with laws and regulations as applicable to them.
My limited knowledge seems to indicate that Kaalam ji is saying "the nuclear deal in its current form is good for India". However, I could be wrong.

Now do note, I'm just conveying what Kaalam ji said, as reported by Indian Express. Please don't shoot the messenger if you happen to disagree with our former President.

I just hope any criticism is directed against what Kaalam ji said and not to me.

Cheers!

Added later: Of course if you are looking for what Kaalam ji said at the time Shourie ji made his comments, then I'm afraid you'll have to look at the archived avatars of this thread. I don't have the time to dig it up for you.
Last edited by amit on 25 Nov 2008 16:30, edited 1 time in total.
amit
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by amit »

Sanku,

Perhaps you'd like to have a look at Google search for Kaalam ji views on the nuclear deal around this time last year.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by Sanku »

dear Amit; I have read what Kalam Sir has to say; but what I hear is quite different. So thats why I asked. Thanks for the explanation though.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by ramana »

Amit if its all water under the bridge why are you p*** in the waters? You could have just posted the news item as it was without your remarks which can be misinterpreted or not.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by amit »

ramana wrote:Amit if its all water under the bridge why are you p*** in the waters? You could have just posted the news item as it was without your remarks which can be misinterpreted or not.
Ramana ji,

You're right there are certain things that are best left unsaid. So my bad. However, having said that, I fail to see how my remarks can be misinterpreted.

My grouse is not against anyone on BRF, and I indicated as much in my post. Instead my grouse is against Arun Shourie whom I used to respect immensely, having come into contact with him several times in a previous life. I also think he did a wonderful job as Disinvestment Minister in the NDA dispensation despite the usual roadblocks.

However, this particular incident, involving the claims about Kalaam - an Indian institution and probably one of the most admired Indians alive - indicated to me (and to me only, please note) that he's now become a pure political animal. He (unwittingly) equated himself with Amar Singh (ugh!) in his effort to utilize the Kalaam brand, IMHO.

No more from me about this.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by ramana »

OK.

Here is Dr kalam's newsletter
Billion beats

The Nov 2008 issue is on nuke deal.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by Philip »

http://epaper.newindpress.com/NE/NE/200 ... ndex.shtml

"Nuclear Slavery"

And here is the view of a former BARC Director who says that "the writing on the wall is very clear.For the sake of 40,000MW,we see, to be mortgaging our future.We have ler ourselves fallen into a trap that will kill our hard earned initiative."

He further says that the deal is a betrayal of Dr.Homi Bhaba's masterplan for our nuclear independence and future,using our own thorium technology.We wil now be at the mercy of foreign fuel suppliers.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by NRao »

It’s nuclear slavery

A. N. Prasad

First Published : 26 Nov 2008 02:10:00 AM IST
Last Updated : 26 Nov 2008 09:02:48 AM IST

All seems quiet on the nuclear deal front after a virtual onslaught in media and political circles ever since it was mooted in 2005, with the signing of the Indo-US Joint Statement by President Bush and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. That it has taken more than three years to conclude the agreement speaks volumes for the way the process has been handled. Now that it has been finalised, it is worth recollecting what we are in for. We have to realise that there is absolutely no correlation between the Joint Statement and the final shape of the deal. All the talk of India being eligible to treatment at par with other advanced countries like the US, and the offer of full civil nuclear co-operation is eyewash. It was summarily dumped even before the negotiations really got under way. India, by giving up on this, has committed a blunder that has changed the whole complexion of the deal. It has accepted terms and conditions that by no means are honourable.


The US, following a meticulous approach of engaging a number of think-tanks and interest groups with perfect coordination between the administration and Congress, has largely succeeded in achieving its threepronged objective of roping India into the global non-proliferation mainstream, capping capability to expand its strategic programme and exploit the lucrative commercial market for nuclear power, possibly with an eye on reviving its own moribund nuclear industry.

For its part, India set its priorities on access to global uranium supplies, securing global participation in nuclear power generation to supplement the domestic programme, getting rid of the embargoes through an unconditional waiver from the Nuclear Suppliers Group, and access to R&D on nuclear power as a technologically advanced global player on respectable terms.

India managed partial success, but the terms and conditions are too harsh to qualify the outcome as being in national interest. At no time did India, unlike the US, show willingness to have broader consultations with other than like-minded parties, and preferred to take unilateral decisions without attempting political consensus. Many retired senior scientists who contributed to the development of nuclear technology were kept out of the loop. A pity that India, in spite of its technological strength and the bait of an attractive nuclear power market, could not use them as leverage in negotiations.

In justification, spokesmen for the deal often talk about relief from isolation, access to uranium, accelerated power generation and high technology inflow as strong points.

Let us look at these in perspective.

Isolation began when we carried out the first nuclear test in 1974. We had not built a nuclear reactor on our own then. That did not deter us from facing the challenge of sanctions. The most comprehensive technological development, encompassing the entire nuclear fuel cycle as well as weapons capability, took place mostly during the period of isolation. It was considered the golden era of nuclear development! When we conducted the 1998 nuclear tests we were quite advanced, but the embargoes were made more stringent, denying supply of even dual use items. We took it in our stride. Between 1998 and now we have made more headway, taking major steps towards long-term energy independence through thorium utilisation. The world watched and realised that isolation was not working. So it is strange that we are getting cold feet and switching from independence mode to dependence, giving the impression that we have suffered under isolation. In fact, it is apt to say that world nuclear development suffered by isolating India.

That we lack adequate supplies of uranium and have an abundance of thorium is well known and was factored into the threestage power programme. Suddenly, it is being made out to be a revelation. It will, of course, hurt the power programme in the short term, but like other challenges can be overcome with will and determination. Only a very small part of the uranium available in the country has so far been mined. Someone should be held answerable for the lapse that created this crisis.

Power is an emotive issue, with the country reeling under shortages. To make the deal appealing, practically unrealisable projections, sounding like political slogans, were made even by those who are supposed to be responsible. For example, it has been repeatedly said that 20,000 MWe will be generated by 2020. If one looks at the breakup given by a senior member of the Department of Atomic Energy in an article published in the IANCAS Bulletin in April 2006, in addition to reactors operating and under construction with a total capacity of about 7,000 MWe, the balance of 13,000 MWe by 2020 has to come from eight pressurised heavy water reactors (700 MWe each), four fast breeder reactors (500 MWe each), six light water reactors (1,000 MWe each) and one advanced heavy water reactor (300 MWe).

All these reactor designs are still on the drawing board, except the LWRs of the Koodankulam type, which are to come from Russia under an arrangement to be worked out. So how realistic is it to expect all this to happen within the next 11 years? Projections are being made that by 2030 installed capacity for nuclear power will be stepped up to 40,000 MWe. These numbers are being rolled out to mislead the country.

Pragmatism seems to have no place.

Nuclear power generation is a serious business involving a whole lot of issues such as environmental, siting, safety, regulatory, economic, legal, technological, human resources, and so on. It is not like putting up conventional plants. One mishap caused by taking shortcuts could lead to a catastrophe with global repercussions. Even for one who has worked on nuclear development it is hard to visualise the nature of the high technology we get access to through this deal.

Such loose talk by responsible persons in government belittles the dedicated efforts of so many stalwarts over the years.

The founder of the Indian nuclear programme, Dr Homi J Bhabha, thought of nuclear power as a long-term option to be realised through predominantly indigenous efforts. Thorium holds the key. This deal could upset the rhythm and pace of development of the domestic programme, divert it to uranium dependence and make thorium utilisation a dream for the far future. It is hard to imagine how the tempo of the domestic programme could be maintained when the country’s resources are used to sustain an import regime.

One should perhaps see the writing on the wall. For the sake of about 40,000 MWe we seem to be mortgaging our future. Bhabha had dreamt of making India a world leader in thorium technology. One can only wonder at his reaction to the demeaning conditions of the present deal. We have let ourselves fall into a trap that will kill our hardearned initiative, keep us constantly looking for uranium supplies and spares, and hand over control to external agencies.

The author is a former director of the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre and member of the Atomic Energy Commission.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by Arun_S »

Philip wrote:http://epaper.newindpress.com/NE/NE/200 ... ndex.shtml

"Nuclear Slavery"

And here is the view of a former BARC Director who says that "the writing on the wall is very clear.For the sake of 40,000MW,we see, to be mortgaging our future.We have ler ourselves fallen into a trap that will kill our hard earned initiative."

He further says that the deal is a betrayal of Dr.Homi Bhaba's masterplan for our nuclear independence and future,using our own thorium technology.We wil now be at the mercy of foreign fuel suppliers.
Philip saar, reminds me of a bhajan in my rustic rural land:
  • "Shri Raam Chandra Kah Gayay Siya say, Aiysaa Kali-yug Aaaye-ga |
    Hansa Chugay-ga dana tinikaa, Kowwaa Moti Khayay-ga ||"


    In Angla bhasha:
    • Lord Shri Ram thus said to Sita, in Kali-yug the darkness will envelop this creation,
      whereby the worthy and discerning will be forced to live in poverty and the unworthy and evil will roost in wealth.


A. N. Prasad's satya vachan in this article is the Hansa vachan in Kali-yug.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by ramana »

ramana wrote:OK.

Here is Dr kalam's newsletter
Billion beats

The Nov 2008 issue is on nuke deal.
Read the special issues. And also he is giving some assurances to the nationalists. Dont know if it will find takers.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by Katare »

Philip wrote:http://epaper.newindpress.com/NE/NE/200 ... ndex.shtml

"Nuclear Slavery"

And here is the view of a former BARC Director who says that "the writing on the wall is very clear.For the sake of 40,000MW,we see, to be mortgaging our future.We have ler ourselves fallen into a trap that will kill our hard earned initiative."

He further says that the deal is a betrayal of Dr.Homi Bhaba's masterplan for our nuclear independence and future,using our own thorium technology.We wil now be at the mercy of foreign fuel suppliers.
Future of india is not mortgaged but the future that Prasad wanted for India may have changed. It is Prasad and his ilk with politicos that have not been able to deliver anything tangible on Bhaba's dream except ton of unkept promises and tardy progress.

Open up, have confidence, go work with others, compete and win is what new India is about. India has never lost by opening up, trading and competing with rest of the world. But every time we opened up and any sphere, many "Prasads" spring up forecasting doomsday, sellout and slavery but soon they disappear in oblivion while India keeps riseing.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by NRao »

Katare,

I am not sure we can be that harsh. The reality seems to be that India has made tremendous progress on the three phase front. There is really nothing in the world that IMHO is comparable. Being a tea leaf reader myself, I took upon myself to read the techie details - as much as I could. One thing I realized as soon as i started the effort is that one cannot really get ANY info from any source outside the DAE, etc about the true/real development in India - zilch. I have talked with US based scientists and they too have stated that they have no clue (I know some of them for 30 years or so).

So, when he says that India has made progress I agree with him. Indian nuclear efforts are a gene by themselves IMHO. (Granted this is a real raw person making an observation.)

One of the reasons why India has not been able to deliver is that these technologies take years to be certified - AND, there is no one to really do that outside of "peers" in India. The techs developed are very unique and not replicated anywhere in the world. with the sanctions placed on India, they could not send any papers to be reviewed abroad, which is the standard procedure. The fruits of these efforts should be seen in the next 10-20 years.

IF India could find some other way to pay for the NSG deal, then India should do that. India really does not need any more infusion of reactors, all India needs is a constant, uninterruptedly supply of Uranium for a few years - 20-30 years. It would far better for India to use the $100 Billion in Indian Phase I reactors than to spend it on even Russian reactors.

IF at all there is a failure in India - IMHO - it is searching for Uranium within the country.

What Dr. Prasad is alluding to when he says death of three phase is that the two techs cannot be mixed and perhaps only one can survive within India. Personally I do not see the three phase dying. But the cost of keeping it alive could be too much to bear when actually the Indian efforts would be far, far cheaper.

I think this is just a warning shot - just as AK stated about being proud to be Indians. the weak link as we post is Indian politics and perhaps non-nuclear industrialists.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

amit wrote:However, I seem to recall that, in the run up to the Nuclear deal, Arun Shourie ji had made a statement that, after talking to him, the former President had changed his views on the deal and was now opposed to it.

It would be interesting to know what is Arun Shourie ji's opinion now. I don't recall him ever clarifying his remark once Kaalam came out openly in favour of the deal. I wonder why?

I also remember a post on this thread which praised Kaalam for having the courage to admit his mistake in supporting the deal, all based on what Shourie ji claimed. I think the poster was right in his interpretation as, till then, Shourie ji had a high degree of credibility on the nuclear deal issue.

But then I suppose that's all water down the bridge now.
To calrify. About a month before President Kalam came out with his support for the deal, he did speak to Arun Shourie among others. Arun Shourie has said on record that Kalam ji, did not present any new arguments to change his (Shourie's) views on the matter and Shourie would have preferred for Shri Kalam not to have interfered on the matter as for by that time this deal had taken highly political over tones, with the left withdrawal imminent and the SP using Kalam ji's cover to support the UPA.

Arun Shourie has the above on record.

Shri Kalam has taken the same view as the one KS has taken. Reasonable people can disagree on issues and these disagreements do not make the other party evil.

IMO: This deal is about geo-politics, state craft and war craft. We have to look beyond name brands and go more on the merits and crediblity of the arguments presented, to make policy judgments.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by vsudhir »

How Safe Are Our Nukes?

B Raman in Outlook
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by Rupesh »

vsudhir wrote:How Safe Are Our Nukes?

B Raman in Outlook
Its a big cause for worry. Terriorists armed with RPG's can cause alot of harm. Hope the concerned authorities will take the risk into account while planning the security of our nuclear sites.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by NRao »

Its a big cause for worry. Terriorists armed with RPG's can cause alot of harm. Hope the concerned authorities will take the risk into account while planning the security of our nuclear sites.

Hmmmmm...........

IIRC reactors are designed to withstand much larger forces. Newer ones should withstand aircrafts plowing into them.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by NRao »

Under the FYI category:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122783386119963145.html
Nuclear Project Hits Obstacle As Exelon Balks
By REBECCA SMITH

GE Hitachi Nuclear Energy has a problem with its latest nuclear reactor: getting someone to build it.

A decision by Exelon Corp. to drop the next-generation GE Hitachi reactor at the Chicago firm's proposed Texas nuclear project casts a shadow over the design that, so far, exists only on paper and is mired in a difficult certification process at the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.

Exelon said this week it no longer intends to build GE Hitachi's ESBWR reactor -- short for "economic simplified boiling water reactor" -- if it proceeds with its project because it has concluded the reactor can't clear regulatory hurdles fast enough for Exelon to qualify for federal loan guarantees. The decision is significant because Exelon is the largest operator of nuclear reactors in the U.S.

Several makers of nuclear reactors are trying to get their designs approved by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. That approval process has become part of a high-stakes game as utilities across the U.S. push forward with plans to build new nuclear reactors. Plants are expected to cost anywhere from $5 billion to $12 billion apiece. But plants can't be built until reactors get NRC certification and utilities get licenses to proceed.

Of the five reactor designs being seriously considered, only two have thus far been certified for U.S. use. One is by Westinghouse Electric Co., a unit of Toshiba Corp., and the other is based on a design by General Electric Co. The reactor types built first could have an advantage over other designs by securing supplier networks and honing construction techniques that will allow subsequent units to be built at lower cost.

Because the costs are so high, many utilities are counting on federal subsidies in order to make the plants economically viable. But in order to obtain subsidies, such as federal loan guarantees, utilities must move forward on projects by certain dates. That is prompting utilities such as Exelon to consider reactor designs that have the best chance of getting early NRC approval.

GE began the certification process for the ESBWR three years ago. In 2007, it formed a joint venture with Hitachi Corp. to pursue nuclear development opportunities together.

NRC staff has at times been unhappy with the quality of information provided by GE Hitachi, which has caused delays in the review for the ESBWR, a person close to the review process at the NRC said.

A spokeswoman for GE Hitachi said her firm has approached Exelon to see if it would be interested in an older design, the ABWR -- short for advanced boiling water reactors -- since it's ruled out the ESBWR.

Exelon decided to drop the ESBWR after it learned in October "we had no chance of getting federal loan guarantees," said Exelon spokesman Craig Nesbit.

Write to Rebecca Smith at [email protected]
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by Arun_S »

Very soon, India is likely to make some very big ticket purchases in the nuclear arena, now that all obstacles have been dismantled for India to restart nuclear commerce with the world.

One country likely to benefit from this is France, which has offered to India its top of the line nuclear reactor. Called the European Pressurized Water Reactor (EPR), none like this are operational anywhere in the world, though they are under construction in two places. Each 1600-megawatt reactor that the French state owned company Areva has proposed is likely to costs upwards of Euro 3.5 billion to construct. Confirming the offer, Jean-Jacques Gautrot, special advisor to the Areva CEO Anne Lauvergeon, Areva, Paris said, "we are at the beginning of the commercial process in India."

The EPR is the mother of all nuclear power reactors, since none in the world are so large. It has been designed jointly by Areva in France and Siemens in Germany and as of now only six of these monsters have been ordered in the world, two each to be made in Finland, France and China
in the coming years. The Finish reactor being made at Olkiluoto is likely to start generating power next year.

According to Areva, EPR is the 'most efficient and surest thing for India', since this third generation nuclear reactor it has enhanced safety features; saves over 17 per cent in uranium usage as compared to similar older nuclear reactors; and has been designed for over 92 per cent availability. The total cost of construction and operation of an EPR over its entire life time works to be about 5 Euro cents per kilowatt hour, which Areva estimates is the cheapest for any kind of power reactor including solar, wind, coal and gas.

India has suggested that the French set up a big nuclear energy park in western India that can produce upwards of 10,000 MW from a single location, Dr S K Jain Chairman cum Managing Director for Nuclear Power Corporation of India Limited, the Indian state entity with which Areva is negotiating confirmed that the Jaitapur site south off Mumbai has been set aside for the French where land acquisition procedures have already started in earnest. Gautrot acknowledged that Areva was 'happy' with the Indian choice of the location for the proposed EPR.
Few observations:
  • 1. Larger the plant the lower is the overall capital investment in erecting the plant. Thus this 1600 MW will be cheapest. But that means their lowest cost is 2.19 million Euro/MWe. At current exchange rate w.r.t US$ that comes to 2.76 Million US$/ MWe.

    2. The worldwide norm for cost of building Nuclear power plants is 2.0 to 2.5m$/MWe. So the French are clearly not being competitive, with even the largest reactor with the lowest overnight cost.

    3. Contrast the above reality with IMO empty promise of Sri Anil Kakodkar and his top colleagues at BARC where in in the power point presentation they claim that the small 700 MWe PHWR is built with just 1.7M$/MWe. and an even smaller and more complex PFBR of 500 MWe will be built with just 1.55M$/MWe.
Clearly if Shri Kakodkar and his BARC colleagues are in real making gold out of digging dirt, why is he throwing good money for bad investment of imported nuclear plants at 78% higher cost, instead of using the international trade to do line production of these ultra cheap 700 or 500 MWe size reactors at rock bottom price/MWe that Kakodkar and BARC tout in flashy powerpoint presentation?

What gives?
RajeshA
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by RajeshA »

Maybe NPCI can invest in Areva and get a stake in it!
NRao
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by NRao »

Clearly if Shri Kakodkar and his BARC colleagues are in real making gold out of digging dirt, why is he throwing good money for bad investment of imported nuclear plants at 78% higher cost, instead of using the international trade to do line production of these ultra cheap 700 or 500 MWe size reactors at rock bottom price/MWe that Kakodkar and BARC tout in flashy powerpoint presentation?

What gives?
I had asked a similar question, and, was told that India has to pony up for the NSG votes.

I think there will be some cost for getting the FR reactor to get certified in the US too. A cost that India may need to bear?

Which brings up the question, are these reactors automatically certifiable in India?
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by Arun_S »

NRao wrote:
Clearly if Shri Kakodkar and his BARC colleagues are in real making gold out of digging dirt, why is he throwing good money for bad investment of imported nuclear plants at 78% higher cost, instead of using the international trade to do line production of these ultra cheap 700 or 500 MWe size reactors at rock bottom price/MWe that Kakodkar and BARC tout in flashy powerpoint presentation?

What gives?
I had asked a similar question, and, was told that India has to pony up for the NSG votes.

I think there will be some cost for getting the FR reactor to get certified in the US too. A cost that India may need to bear?

Which brings up the question, are these reactors automatically certifiable in India?
Or Import at will, so no one will call their bluff to deliver the goods.
A.k.a nuclear deterrence built on pretty "Venn diagram" and nuclear power built on pretty "power point" presentation.

Gayee bhains paani main.

Just My Thoughts onleeee...

Just as an aside, because it really does not matter to India anyway, the 10,000MWe order to France for their so called favor at NSG the bribe India will pay to cover for competent salaried nuclear scientists in BARC is :
  • A.) US$ 10.6 billion (assuming the French quoted price and Kakodkar's Power point presentation cost for 700MWe PHWR), or
    B.) US$ 12.1 billion (assuming the French quoted price and Kakodkar's Power point presentation cost for 500MWe FBR).

I do understand that in last 3 months India has turned into a rich country (poverty aka the poor people are already eradicated) and can easily afford this bribe to the French. And this is not counting the bribe (approx US$ 35 billion) India will pay for the other 30,000 MWe nuclear power plant that Shri Kakodkar envisages to import to light up the huts of very poor Leelawati and Kalawati. Of course after the 40GWe order there will be no more money left to build BARC's 700MWe PHWR or FBR. Problem solved.

Screw India from all ends. Enjoy while the orgy lasts.

BTW what is the annual Indian budget for Indian defense forces?
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

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NRao
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ramana
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by ramana »

You know hate to bring this into this thread but unless India takes care of the terrorist threat there wont be any order of powerplants especially the glowing ones. So no commissions or omissions in Swiss banks. Something for the UPA to consider.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by Gerard »

Mega uranium deal with Russia
At a summit meeting with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev put the final touches on a mega agreement to supply nearly 2,000 tonnes of uranium. This would catapult the capacity utilisation of the existing plants to 90 per cent from an unhealthy 40 to 60 per cent due to shortage of the raw material.
The two sides agreed to set up four more power plants at Kudankulam, where Russia is already assisting in installing two plants. They also agreed to explore the possibility of setting up more nuclear plants, possibly two.
Significantly, Mr. Medvedev said he discussed the development and leasing of nuclear powered submarines.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by negi »

ramana wrote:You know hate to bring this into this thread but unless India takes care of the terrorist threat there wont be any order of powerplants especially the glowing ones. So no commissions or omissions in Swiss banks. Something for the UPA to consider.
Gurudev please clarify :

1. while I understand the threat from terrorists , how does it matter to the foreign builder as long as India is willing to pay (I assume insurance does not cover sabotage due to terrorist attacks).


2. What are the glowing one's ? you are referring to the latest gen plants from Areva ?
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion

Post by Arun_S »

ramana wrote:You know hate to bring this into this thread but unless India takes care of the terrorist threat there wont be any order of powerplants especially the glowing ones. So no commissions or omissions in Swiss banks. Something for the UPA to consider.
Yup. Stop the payback. Viz stop order for all Light Water Reactors (requiring high energy low-moderated hot and glowing neutron from enriched Uranium core, compared to SRDE dark Natural Uranium fueled PHWR) till these worthies apply all the pressure to squeeze the balls of Paki-satan that grows terrorists.
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