Indian Interests

[shiv]

That is why I asked Shiv if bringing up RMjees ideas were a way to remove Hindutva on the board, just like the Cuckoo ideas of communism are propagated by outside interests in the country to actually muddle the real agenda and remove the focus and attention from real issues and debate therein to ones in la la land.

Off the bat I would actually suspect that RM jee may be one of the many "paid spoilers" running around in India.

Sanku "Hindutva" seems to be a bad word. All the threads that were supposedly giving the impression that BRF is a "Hindutvadi board" were summarily locked up and thrown away and even BENIS went to a new forum.

Surely that is not Rahul Mehta's work. I guess B Raman's opinion hit harder than anyone anticipated - but why anyone should want to get rid of the Hindutva label I don't know. Not in this forum's interests I guess.

That tells me something...

[Sanku]

Thank you Shiv; I was wondering if it was the "idea" that you mentioned to Ramana about taking care of too much Hindutvaadi discussion


In general your post above is very telling.

[Arjun]

I think RMjee's discussion are harmful since they completely trivialize the main issues. It is like asking the nation to forget about the rising tide and completely devote all its intellectual ability to discuss which actress in Hollywood is the prettiest.

I dont usually respond to that chain of discussion after say first 2 posts RM made on the forum since I consider them so ludicrous that only a person with way too much lukkhaa time will give any attention to those. However some "powers" on the board have actually generated a interest in his views by they themselves giving bhaav to it. It is bizarre for a old time BRFite to see RM jee being taken seriously (although he has actually gained some knowledge based on hoofing it that is clear)

In a country where we cant agree if we can hold free and fair elections once in 5 years or if EVMs work -- he wants a right to recall.

In a country where the basic distribution methods are shot, he wants mineral rights to be equally distributed.

And note this is apart from the correctness of the idea itself -- for example wealth tax is known to be a hateful exercise which no one wants and only causes more damage to economy.

Sanku, I am a little amused at this visceral reaction from some quarters including you to the right to recall issue. And why are you intent on introducing this as a Rahul Mehta initiative? Any simple research will tell you that the concept of citizen's initiatives and right of recall far, far predates Rahul Mehta - and there are growing movements around the world that actively advocate these plans - and if anything, these are gaining momentum in most democracies as we speak.

So the rest of his ideas are flawed - I haven't looked into them in detail, so who cares? Can you focus on the specific ideas rather than the messenger?

Direct democracy is an extension of the belief in universal adult franchise...and now that you have had two reversals, I see Shaurya and you have started to question whether universal adult franchise is correct? You say RM is not worth taking seriously - would you rather that we take seriously the claim that universal adult franchise is suddenly now become an incorrect concept for India ?!?

The link I provided is an article authored by Jagdeep Chokkar, former dean of IIMA. Do you consider him a loony like you do RM?

My point is simple - lets not dismiss the idea off-hand. In any case, I think you will soon find yourself in the wrong side of history on that point...The question is, is there validity to the concept (if not the implementation), and if so - how can we figure out an implementation that makes sense in the Indian context.

Btw - I am just as keen as you are that the forum stop being politically correct - and religous discussions be allowed. If your point is that without addressing what is our ideology as a nation there is no point in talking geopolitics - I am very much with you on that. But that should not preclude us from other governance ideas that also make sense.

[Sanku]

Sanku, I am a little amused at this visceral reaction from some quarters including you to the right to recall issue.

No actually the viscereal reaction is not on the issue -- the issue itself is irrelevant at best. The visceral reaction is on how irrelevant and impractical takes the center stage.

And why are you intent on introducing this as a Rahul Mehta initiative? Any simple research will tell you that the concept of citizen's initiatives and right of recall far, far predates Rahul Mehta -

But no one cares for it on BRF or else where if RM does not push it right?

and there are growing movements around the world that actively advocate these plans - and if anything, these are gaining momentum in most democracies as we speak.

Means nothing to me -- I want solutions to be home grown and not imposed because it was the fashion elsewhere. That does not work. And I am sure the right to recall is not going to be a home grown demand for sure. As I said my concern is not with the idea but the sidetracking which results because of these ideas.

Direct democracy is an extension of the belief in universal adult franchise...and now that you have had two reversals, I see Shaurya and you have started to question whether universal adult franchise is correct?

Shaurya has already clarified that the concept of universal adult franchise and its implementation are too very different things. I would probably want a very different concept of universal adult franchise if was up to me.

The link I provided is an article authored by Jagdeep Chokkar, former dean of IIMA. Do you consider him a loony like you do RM?

I dont know him enough to make a judgement, maybe may not be. I would rather not say -- however Justice Katju is a supreme court judge but widely considered to be a looney, so we have to be a little careful about position of a person and validity of an idea.

My point is simple - lets not dismiss the idea off-hand. In any case, I think you will soon find yourself in the wrong side of history on that point...The question is, is there validity to the concept (if not the implementation), and if so - how can we figure out an implementation that makes sense in the Indian context.

You know that does sound fine in principle -- but then energies are finitie and have to be targeted towards right issues. This is one thing which I can safely think of putting on back burner till a whole huge laundry list of issues is sorted through. This is not a "lets do in parallel" thing since there are basic pieces missing. ISRO did not make Chandrayan its first project.
If ISRO was talking of Chandrayan in 60s instead of SLVs they would be considered loonies too. The question is that the idea and time and context all have to be considered together.

BTW this is not new for me. This discussion first came on board a few years back when RM jee first made his pitch. So as such this is one thing I think we have thrashed out enough and then put into the "looney bin" so to say and would rather not do that exercise again.

All this is IMVHO etc. of course.

[ShauryaT]

Arjun: Universal Suffrage was an evolution in the lands, they were championed in. If you care to dig in to its history, you will find that, it took over a century in these lands to remove, property, sex and religious limitations on the issue. It was a gradual process. I am not suggesting that we put these type of limitations, not due to a sense of PC but because, these are not our issues.

We already have been practicing the concept of universal adult suffrage, so, in a sense there is no rolling back, even if I do not agree that we should have started that way. However I do question, the way we exercise this right and the end result they produce, given the society we live in.

Democracy is best practiced at the grass roots. It is in this area, that we need strengthening.

Another purpose for my comment, was to question the efficacy of the entire western model of governance for Indian society. I question this not due to some sense of chauvinism but due to the fundamental fact that as societies our end goals are/were different. By adopting the structures of the western state, we also change the goals and purpose for our society.

I for one am not willing to give up the end goal, which has a spiritual message at its core, for India and for others. Do not think the western model is the best way to go about it, as it was built for another purpose.

[Arjun]

Arjun: Universal Suffrage was an evolution in the lands, they were championed in. If you care to dig in to its history, you will find that, it took over a century in these lands to remove, property, sex and religious limitations on the issue. It was a gradual process. I am not suggesting that we put these type of limitations, not due to a sense of PC but because, these are not our issues.

We already have been practicing the concept of universal adult suffrage, so, in a sense there is no rolling back, even if I do not agree that we should have started that way. However I do question, the way we exercise this right and the end result they produce, given the society we live in.

Democracy is best practiced at the grass roots. It is in this area, that we need strengthening.

Another purpose for my comment, was to question the efficacy of the entire western model of governance for Indian society. I question this not due to some sense of chauvinism but due to the fundamental fact that as societies our end goals are/were different. By adopting the structures of the western state, we also change the goals and purpose for our society.

I for one am not willing to give up the end goal, which has a spiritual message at its core, for India and for others. Do not think the western model is the best way to go about it, as it was built for another purpose.

Yes, universal suffrage cannot be rolled back - but there can certainly be a spirit of scientific evolution in the process. In fact, that is typically what the west also does well - put in place systems and then have a process of continuous evolution to make sure the process is in synch with objectives.

After universal suffrage, the evidence points to direct democracy (citizen's initiatives, recall & referendum) being the next big evolutionary step in the concept of democracy. In fact Shaurya, the thinking is very much in line with the thought you had expressed in an earlier post:

The purpose of a democratic system is to provide a representative. If there are questions on how representative is this representative system of ours, then one has to change some things.

This is exactly the thinking behind those who advocate moving from a 'representative democracy' to a 'direct democracy'.

The reason I am getting personally interested in this is simple. It is increasingly getting clear that the representative democracy model does not address the direct concerns of the people, because (a) there are too many issues out there and (b) voting for a single person does not allow the voter to convey the nuance that she supports him on issue A but not on issue B.

So, how do you convey that nuance? Citizen's initiatives is the answer - where if a large enough number of voters say they are concerned on an issue - they can take direct legislative action as opposed to going through the representatives.

As an example, lets say I believe (which in fact I do) that religious exclusivism and conversions based on religous exclusvism need to be disincentivized. And I further believe that in actual fact the majority in the country does support me on this idea - but in representative democracy one votes on several other issues and therefore majority votes might land up going to a party that does not necessarily have this on their agenda. Well, direct democracy (specifically citizen's initiatives) can allow you a process whereby citizens get to vote exclusviely on this feature and convey the message to representatives on terms they will understand.

You get the idea - you can use this for your pet themes as long as they really do reflect the views of the people. Now, can this right be misused by opposing viewpoints, can it degenerate to support for populism - sure these are valid concerns. But one needs to take an 'engineering' approach and figure out a way to address them, rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater.

My last post on this topic - it might be OT for this thread.

[Keshav]

Arjun -
You guys should continue the discussion. The "Good Governance" thread would be a great place to continue if moderators feel this thread is not appropriate.

[Sanku]

This is exactly the thinking behind those who advocate moving from a 'representative democracy' to a 'direct democracy'.

The concept of direct democracy is not new in India. It has existed for millenia, including right to recall so to say.

However when you say

but there can certainly be a spirit of scientific evolution in the process.

being the next big evolutionary step in the concept of democracy.

The concept of evolution as it exists for these today is a very western centric concept -- linked to THEIR evolution of maturity. We have no reason to shackle ourselves to their evolutionary maturity.

We have already suffered greatly by linking our troth to their systems etc. There is no reason as to why we should be guided by their sense and direction of what next.

It is this view that I think goes against the grain of Indian interests and what riles me no end. As Shiv lamented when will start being independent thinkers based on India and its situation?

[Arjun]

but there can certainly be a spirit of scientific evolution in the process.

being the next big evolutionary step in the concept of democracy.

The concept of evolution as it exists for these today is a very western centric concept -- linked to THEIR evolution of maturity. We have no reason to shackle ourselves to their evolutionary maturity.

We have already suffered greatly by linking our troth to their systems etc. There is no reason as to why we should be guided by their sense and direction of what next.

It is this view that I think goes against the grain of Indian interests and what riles me no end. As Shiv lamented when will start being independent thinkers based on India and its situation?

I don't see it as a western-centric concept at all...In fact, if India does get interested in direct democracy and steps into it - I have no doubt that India will in 3 years time become the 800-pound glorrilla setting the standards for innovation in this regard. And in any case, as you say, direct democracy has a basis in Indian traditions.

Look, all this talk of western concepts and India being a follower really boils down to your attitude. You can regard English as a western language and get all worked up that India thinks in a foreign language, or you can see Indians taking over the language to the detriment of the original owners..What does it tell you when 7 out of 11 spelling bee finalists in the US are Indians? And see the same kind of ratio in other output parameters in the English language - we might as well take ownership of English and kick the others out..!

You can regard cricket as a Western game...but whose tune is the cricket world playing to today?

[Rudradev]

2) If the argument is that without addressing higher-order needs, right to recall and citizen's initiatives can actually lead to counter-productive and self-defeating results - that's a more serious charge, and there *MAY* be some basis to that argument. However, it is my sense that it would not be possible to prove one way or the other without actually implementing and testing out the hypothesis in a low-risk manner. I would suggest implementing this first at the level of all municipal corporations and district administrations across the country. If that experiment proves to be a success it can be taken across to the state and national levels.

MP and Chattisgarh already allow for this at the municipal level - and the Chattisgarh experiment last year has gotten a fair degree of praise : http://www.livemint.com/2008/07/2222124 ... ecall.html This needs to be quickly expanded to municipalities across the country and we can then take stock of what is working and what is not.

I disagree, only because, as Sanku and others have said: implementing these things is IMHO a waste of time and energy that must be urgently directed elsewhere. Meeting the lower-tier (or "higher-order") needs of the people is an absolute necessity and should certainly be prioritized above political experimentation.

Why experiment with higher-tier needs in a situation where your subjects are already biased towards failure by the fact of missing out on their lower-tier needs? One can extrapolate the likelihood of failure of "direct democracy", from the observed reasons for dysfunction of existing democratic mechanisms in India. In other words, instead of implementing "low-risk" trial runs as you suggest, far better to direct our limited resources towards eliminating the known risk factors that obviously exist.

There will be plenty of time to experiment with political mechanisms later, when alleviation of lower-tier needs has brought the subjects of the experiment to a state where it is at least a fair test.

[Sanku]

but there can certainly be a spirit of scientific evolution in the process.

being the next big evolutionary step in the concept of democracy.

The concept of evolution as it exists for these today is a very western centric concept -- linked to THEIR evolution of maturity. We have no reason to shackle ourselves to their evolutionary maturity.

I don't see it as a western-centric concept at all...In fact, if India does get interested in direct democracy and steps into it -

No not the concept, but the statement you made about how it is the next step in evolution. This EVOLUTION that you talk of is particularly a western evolution. The concepts themselves are generic however their acceptance and use and the importance paid to them at different points of time (i.e. evolution) that we talk of is a western evolution.

You can regard cricket as a Western game...but whose tune is the cricket world playing to today?

Well cricket is but just a game, so I personally consider it only a game which has any meaning in the grassy overcast bogs and peats of Ye Ol England, outside that I think the game makes no sense (irrespective of its popularity in India) Also everyone argues that the manic obsession with cricket has actually been overall dertrimental to sports in the country.

The point is that cricket itself will call for a different debate -- I would not called it a settled issue just based on its popularity.

Further more all this "we are great at English whats the problem with that" -- is fine, no problems. But if English causes Indian languages to die and create a condition where we Indians cant read our own historical literature in a Indian language and need english translations for the same, that means there is something seriously wrong with the country.

We need our people to be rooted in our culture -- and our history and same for the systems.

OTOH I would say that bollywood has been a good example of how a western innovation (cinema) was completely pulled in Indianized that traditionally the products that come from Bollywood have been distinct and steeped in Indiannes about India.

----

I ask you why is our vision so limited now that we consider being good at English a successful trait? Shouldnt what we be really proud of would if a Indian language actually was the lingu franca of the world?

----

I think we Indians sell ourselves way way short.

[rkirankr]

but there can certainly be a spirit of scientific evolution in the process.

being the next big evolutionary step in the concept of democracy.

The concept of evolution as it exists for these today is a very western centric concept -- linked to THEIR evolution of maturity. We have no reason to shackle ourselves to their evolutionary maturity.


No not the concept, but the statement you made about how it is the next step in evolution. This EVOLUTION that you talk of is particularly a western evolution. The concepts themselves are generic however their acceptance and use and the importance paid to them at different points of time (i.e. evolution) that we talk of is a western evolution.



Well cricket is but just a game, so I personally consider it only a game which has any meaning in the grassy overcast bogs and peats of Ye Ol England, outside that I think the game makes no sense (irrespective of its popularity in India) Also everyone argues that the manic obsession with cricket has actually been overall dertrimental to sports in the country.

The point is that cricket itself will call for a different debate -- I would not called it a settled issue just based on its popularity.

Further more all this "we are great at English whats the problem with that" -- is fine, no problems. But if English causes Indian languages to die and create a condition where we Indians cant read our own historical literature in a Indian language and need english translations for the same, that means there is something seriously wrong with the country.

We need our people to be rooted in our culture -- and our history and same for the systems.

OTOH I would say that bollywood has been a good example of how a western innovation (cinema) was completely pulled in Indianized that traditionally the products that come from Bollywood have been distinct and steeped in Indiannes about India.

----

I ask you why is our vision so limited now that we consider being good at English a successful trait? Shouldnt what we be really proud of would if a Indian language actually was the lingu franca of the world?

----

I think we Indians sell ourselves way way short.

I quite agree with Sanku. No doubt because of the english knowledge we possess at a particular point of time we are able to make some progress in some fields . But it may not be true for all times. Also the knowledge stored in other languages would be lost forever if the indic languages are allowed to die.We may always be a backoffice clerks to the world business.

Iam not ranting against english. It is another language, but if it kills local language then there is a problem.

The problems for India need Indian solutions not borrowed from other countries. Sometimes inspiration from others may be good but the core idea has to be Indian rooted in its culture

[raji]

but there can certainly be a spirit of scientific evolution in the process.

being the next big evolutionary step in the concept of democracy.

The concept of evolution as it exists for these today is a very western centric concept -- linked to THEIR evolution of maturity. We have no reason to shackle ourselves to their evolutionary maturity.


No not the concept, but the statement you made about how it is the next step in evolution. This EVOLUTION that you talk of is particularly a western evolution. The concepts themselves are generic however their acceptance and use and the importance paid to them at different points of time (i.e. evolution) that we talk of is a western evolution.



Well cricket is but just a game, so I personally consider it only a game which has any meaning in the grassy overcast bogs and peats of Ye Ol England, outside that I think the game makes no sense (irrespective of its popularity in India) Also everyone argues that the manic obsession with cricket has actually been overall dertrimental to sports in the country.

The point is that cricket itself will call for a different debate -- I would not called it a settled issue just based on its popularity.

Further more all this "we are great at English whats the problem with that" -- is fine, no problems. But if English causes Indian languages to die and create a condition where we Indians cant read our own historical literature in a Indian language and need english translations for the same, that means there is something seriously wrong with the country.

We need our people to be rooted in our culture -- and our history and same for the systems.

OTOH I would say that bollywood has been a good example of how a western innovation (cinema) was completely pulled in Indianized that traditionally the products that come from Bollywood have been distinct and steeped in Indiannes about India.

----

I ask you why is our vision so limited now that we consider being good at English a successful trait? Shouldnt what we be really proud of would if a Indian language actually was the lingu franca of the world?

----

I think we Indians sell ourselves way way short.

I quite agree with Sanku. No doubt because of the english knowledge we possess at a particular point of time we are able to make some progress in some fields . But it may not be true for all times. Also the knowledge stored in other languages would be lost forever if the indic languages are allowed to die.We may always be a backoffice clerks to the world business.

Iam not ranting against english. It is another language, but if it kills local language then there is a problem.

The problems for India need Indian solutions not borrowed from other countries. Sometimes inspiration from others may be good but the core idea has to be Indian rooted in its culture

How does one language kill another language ?

Please explain.

[Yayavar]

^^ coincidentally I've been in two conversations recently - do not know how they started - but they had statements of the following kind from well-established Indian (citizens, NRIs and US citizens) -

i) Language is for communication. Why should my child learn Telugu? English is sufficient. Cultural events/festivals can be transliterated into English.
ii) "I've never read a book in Bengali.What advantage does that give me?"
iii) "What? - you can write in Hindi! I doubt I could write anything. Heck I only type and that only in English."
iv) People in India are only interested in English.

I pointed out that the percentage of English speakers is a small one; Bollywood is Hindi, and there are Tollywood/Kollywood etc. However, it does seems to be the flavour among well-off to consider English the only language worth pursuing.

I doubt that the above will kill other languages, however, I'm concerned that most of us do not read Indian literature in the original. Reading Premchand in original is very different than reading an English translation; or worse - reading only Michael chricton (or maybe a little Dickens on the side).

(At the same time I should note that there are others who do take care to ensure their children learn the languages of both parents + English).

[vsudhir]

How does one language kill another language ?

Please explain.

To give a conomic analogy - it "crowds out" investment in or rather, activity in, other languages.

And it starts with transforming the elite/aspiring elite - the first and most important societal pillar to be so corrupted/ converted.

In any case, Desis have shown remarkable finesse with 1+ languages. Have barely seen any desis growing up in Yindia who understand only English onlee. Sure, have seen folks who can't read/write vernacular but not understand spoken vernacular at all is quite rare, even now, IMHO.

ABCDs are a different ballgame, though. They very well fall prey to English onlee early on (daycare days onwards), from what I hear.

what is remarkable though is that in YIndia it wasn't so much the unglisaxonian phoren influence driving English worship, rather it was sarkar, higher edu and the societal elite who were doing so. 2 generations down, even if the ungli-suxon world goes into serious decline, the hold of angrezi in Yindia won't. Can;t say the same for PRC, SoKo and other aspiring powers though.

[putnanja]

Think tank launched to review security issues

Mumbai (PTI) With a view to preventing another terror attack similar to the November 26 attack, Micro Technologies on Friday launched the country's first think tank that will review security issues on a regular basis.

'Micro Secure think Tank' that will comprise of security experts including Vijay Mukhi and retired police personnel will review personal, corporate and institutional security in the country.

The think tank will then submit their reports to the government and will also publish their findings and recommendations to enhance on their website.

"India is surrounded by neighbours whmpass a programme that seeks to build awareness of appropriate protet manner," Mr. Mukhi said.

He further said that after the 26/11 terror attaes about the need to protect and take action but none of the promises have tran after six months of the attack.

[raji]

How does one language kill another language ?

Please explain.

To give a conomic analogy - it "crowds out" investment in or rather, activity in, other languages.

.

Let me tell you a true story. Many years ago I was project leading a small team. We had a Chinese American as one of the members. The guy had a hard time with English.........forget about presentations etc, just normal conversation. I and the other team members attributed it to his being Chinese and let it go. One day we had a meeting with another group. There was one Chinese American woman member in another group, who I got to talking during lunch. She was very articulate and I, being young and feeling comfortable with her, complimented her on her communciations skills and asked her if she knows our Chinese American guy. She said that he is a distant cousin. I then, rather impolitely, let her know that unlike her, he didnt speak English too well. She responded...."oh......he doesnt speak Chinese too well, either...."

Languages, knowledge, art, music are those faculties, where it is not a zero sum game. If you get better in one language, it is not at the expense of another. In fact getting better in one, enhances your ability to get better at another. In my experience, multi-lingual people are good at all languages, pick them up easily and are very articulate and communicative. Single language speakers are normally not very good at their own language either, exceptions in both groups not withstanding.

[svinayak]

http://www.parentinginformation.org/bra ... opment.htm

Speaking two languages at home. Hearing two languages spoken at home is a real advantage to the child. If a child hears two languages from birth, he will maintain the ability to hear the sounds of both and be able to speak each language with the accent of a native speaker. If parents each speak a different language, it is helpful if the child hears the same language consistently from the parent who is its native speaker. If, for example, the mother is a native English speaker and the father a native Spanish speaker, it will be less confusing for the child to hear each parent speak in his or her native language. The child may mix the languages in his own speech initially, but will typically sort it out by around 2 ½ years of age. Then he will separate the words belonging to each language and know which language to use with which parent. By 7 years of age, the child is likely to be able to cope with the two language systems without a problem, using both vocabulary and grammar appropriate for his age.

If a child enters a preschool and is first exposed to a second language after the age of 3, she will still be able to acquire the second language easily because she knows the rules of communication. In 3 to 7 months the child will begin to understand the second language. After about 2 years she will be able to carry on a fluent conversation. Young children learn a second language more easily than adults because the window of opportunity for learning language is still open for them. Helping the child build her self confidence during the time she is learning a second language is very important. Music is a great way to help the child learn words and phrases in the new language. Talking slowly, clearly, and simply is also helpful. It is also important for parents to continue speaking to the child at home in her native language because it continues to lay the foundation for the second language by providing the basic rules of communication. Also, the parent-child interaction might suffer if the parents speak less to the child in an attempt to use the second language.

http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/k_v89/k0802jen.htm

[brihaspati]

Yes, English can be thrown away by Indians, if, and this is a massive huge "if", we as Indians can agree to learn all reigional languages, or agree to learn one Indic language as a compulsory one. As long as any of these two are not agreeable or intensely distasteful to significant groups of people, English remains a way out.

[pgbhat]

S. M Krishna's Interview with CNN-IBN's Suhasini Haidar

[SwamyG]

^^^^
Suhasini Haidar is the daughter of Subramanian Swami and daughter-in-law of Salman Haidar - retired Foreign Secretary. I did not know she works for CNN-IBN, interesting.

[Yayavar]

English is not in the wrong. On the contrary.

However, it has non-Indian idiom and often is focused on thoughts/world-view from outside of India -- the English media, English authors (Adiga, Aroy) are all railed against in BR . It is a tool for cross communication, for advancement of business, career etc. however a place needs to be consciously made for Indian thought in Indian language. The impression of rural India from Hindi books is different than what I get from English writing on India (travel books, blogs or magazines).

[svinayak]

The impression of rural India from Hindi books is different than what I get from English writing on India (travel books, blogs or magazines).

Language is media for imagination, culture, history and sense of ownership. Indian language and their meanings are never really translated in English and English Language cannot carry the past of India into the future.

[Rahul Mehta]

.

I have been ignoring this thread. But yesterday, I saw that there were at least 30-50 posts with key word "RM" and synonyms of RM (such as Rahul Mehta, Recall, mineral royalties, direct democracy etc ). I will post two replies here, and then post remaining replies in Good Governance Thread.

--------

I think Ramana you misunderstood my definition of corruption. Let me define it. : Corruption is any kind of dishonesty, disloyalty, envy or treachery. Therefore, when a person takes unfair advantage of any one else or of society in general, he or she is corrupt. Therefore, when someone is given a job which he doesnt deserve, it is corruption. When a general switches sides out of expedience, that is corruption. When one envies ones brother, that is corruption. When we are treacherous and betray a cause for common good for personal advance, thats corruption. Bribery is only a consequence of corruption that exists.

True. But instead of defining, classifying and analyzing corruption, IMO, we should confine to COMPARING corruption in nations, present and past. And better, we should confine discussion to procedure codes and see which of the proposed administrative procedure codes are less prone to corruption. The view that "corruption exists in even West, so disregard the issue in India", is like saying "eventually everyone dies - so why take medicine?" The quantitative comparison at various levels is important. And what is more important is quantitative comparisons of different "medicines" used.

I find a view in rank and file of Nbjprie - that corruption issue should not get much bandwidth. And comparisons administrative system changes which can reduce corruption (and its twin - nepotism) should be avoided as far as possible. And IMO, it is time we dump these "lets all tolerate corruption" people for once and for all. West progressed ONLY after corruption went down, and India will never match West in terms of real-technology and manufacturing , including weapons manufacturing till bribery reduces. To be specific, administrative changes in 950 AD in UK reduced corruption in police and lower courts. And it was that specific year, commerce, trade and manufacturing started growing leaps and bound. Till 950AD, UK was at same level as far manufacturing went, or may be lower. But by 1700 AD UK was far ahead in manufacturing high tech goods (like weapons) than India. All these changes came because the administrative changes that occurred from 950 AD to 1700 AD. These changes were Coroner's Jury System in 950 AD, Trial Jury Sys in 1200 AD and elections of MP in which started in 1100 AD and became more widespread in 1700 AD. These changes in UK were NOT brought by renaissance etc, they were brought by administrative changes that occurred in 950 AD - today. Today, we are importers rather than manufacturers as far important technological goods go and no change will occur till bribery goes down.

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Shiv: A corrupt person cannot be a patriot - period. That is an absolute value

The act of corruption damages the nation in many ways. So if a person is patriot, he will constantly try to create changes in administrative that would reduce corruption, as far as possible. If the person is saying "lets ignore corruption", he is deliberately doing dis-service to the nation. This perticularly applies to people have time and money to spare to campaign for better laws. I wont expect a person earning mere Rs 5000 a month to spend money in giving advertisements to improve laws. But if persons earning lakhs/crores are turning blind eye to the issue of corruption-prone laws, they are during extreme dis-service to India.

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RamaY: No amount of laws and force will work as such a solution will make the individual to find creative applications of corruption.

In many areas, like lower courts, police etc West has designed administrative system where in policemen and judges cant make much money - not even 1% of what they make in India. Likewise, IIT-JEE has system of written exam where in bribery is almost zero, or many absolutely zero. So in many areas in India, a near zero corruption solutions do exist.

I think Rahul Mehta has a better grasp and ideas to address this issue. {Thanks } I will present three key points from his website, as I understood.

1. Mining lease: Disburse majority of mining leases to all citizens below certain income levels. This will ensure that mercantile group doesn’t exploit common resources single handedly.

2. Hereditary wealth tax: This ensures that beyond a reasonable amount (1cr per offspring) is not accumulated by parents in order to pass on the wealth. The valuation must be worked out. I think a Rs 10 Crores per child is a fair limit with some exceptions such as if the dwelling (one per child) is worth more than 10 Crs, the child is allowed to get the house.

3. National ID System: Which links an individuals wealth, income, revenue records, lands possessions, bank accounts, and everything. This will ensure that individuals are not given any chance to falsify their possessions. If an asset is not reported by any individual it will belong to the state.

4. Right to Recall: this will put the implementation portion in people’s hands. I have seen arguments on implementation. But if we want to be serious about removing corruption from society, we need this type of law. Its usage will diminish as people see more responsible behavior from the key bureaucratic positions.

True, but the MOST IMPORTANT thing is missing . The most important administrative change I have proposed, called as First Demand aka "Makkal Theerpu Mahesan Theerpu" Executive Notification, which is of mere 4 lines and is as follows

1. If a citizen submits an affidavit to the Collector and demands to be put on PM’s website, the Collector will issue a serial number and put it on PM’s website for a fee of Rs 20 per page.

2. If a citizen comes with voter ID, and specified Yes-No on an affidavit submitted in clause-1, the Talati will enter his Yes-No on the PM’s website with voter-ID and give a printed receipt for Rs 3 fee. The Talati will also allow citizen to change his Yes-No for Rs 3 fee. The fee will be Re 1 for BPL card holder

3. The Yes-No count will not be a binding on PM, CMs, officers, judges etc.

4. If over 37 crores citizens register Yes, then the PM may or may not sign the EN proposed in that affidavit.

All the 70-100 procedures, I have proposed, be mineral royalties or recall or PM or recall of SC-Cj or recall of RBI-G will come via the above 4 line procedure. The above proposed procedure sends shiver down the spines of every neta, IAS, top lawyers, ex-judge, intellectuals etc I have spoken to. They are all against it. The two simple demands - let citizens post affidavits on PM's website and citizens post YES/NO on these affidavits !! Why do they oppose this First Demand? Ask them. If existing regime is a "popular" regime, then above 4 lines should create no change at all - be good or bad. If anyone says that above 4 line EN will create any change, be good or bad, he is admitting that existing regime is highly unpopular and that would include all parties. And if one says that he wants a regime where there is least disconnect between people and Govt, why is he hostile to letting citizens post affidavits, YES/NO on PM's website?

Long back, I was shocked to find that in USSR, xerox machine owning was punishable by 2 years in prison !! What sort of Nbjpr USSR had that they were scared of people owning xerox machines? And consider Indian Nbjpr these days : they are scared of letting people post affidavits on PM's website and letting people post their YES/NO on PM's website. This alone proves that they have a lot to hide and they fear a lot when they will be facing a situation when they cant hide it anymore. The mineral royalties laws, recall and plethora of other laws would come within 3 months after PM/CMs are forced to sign the MTMT EN.

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shiv wrote:: We have a culture that promotes "family values" so it is OK for everyone to put his wife/son etc into positions of power by sheer nepotism. The culture must change.

ShauryaT : There is not a place in the world, where family and by extension the "tribe" has or had not enjoyed privileges - and rightly so. We work to provide wealth to our families. These connections are the bed rock of loyalty and trust between people. It can be a source of strength as well as weakness. It is easy to be ultra liberal and pooh-pooh these concepts, in the name of feudalism and promoting nepotism, in the name of "welfare" and "individuality". The trick is in the ability to balance these concepts, which have worked for many a millenia and still work, with modern ones, where rule of law prevails over and above these age old proven structures, especially for areas where the effects are wide spread, as in the public domain or in the private domain, where individuals seek to tap this "out of tribe" talent to grow bigger than what the "tribe" would normally allow.

Shiv, ShauryaT,

We dont need to change culture to reduce nepotism --- we need to change administrative procedures. eg One reason why nepotism in administration thrives because of interviews. Abolish interviews in junior-most level recruitments, and confine to written tests, and nepotism reduces by order or magnitude within days and without any change in culture. Next, nepotism in courts is because judge decides. Allow Jurors to decide, and nepotism will vanish within days without any change in culture. In my next coming book, I have shown that for EVERY problem that West solved and India could not, culture is not the reason - the reasons are administrative differences only. And title of the book - what else - "Culture is not the reason".

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Acharya: The thing missing in your post is the size of the economy. The size of Indian economy is stunted for the population. For an 1.2B population it should be atleast $3T economy. Due to leadership problem in the 70s and all decades and due to license Raj India has a stunted economy. World economy and trade from 1975 to 2000 increased by 7 times that is 700%. The growth of Indian trade and GDP was insignificant. There is not enough money for the population and any money seen in the economy is grabbed by the educated elite. Vast population in the rural economy and other industry is deprived of investment and growth. Corruption thrives in this economic situation. Lot of those who complain about corruption do not even mention the economic problem and bad leadership in the last 50 years.

Corruption increases poverty, and its not the only factor of course. But poverty is NEVER ever a reason behind corruption. Even poorest of babu is far better off than common. And lets say IPS takes bribes because his salary is lower than private sector people with same skill level. Then why doesnt he quit? And why doesnt he stop after amassing Rs 10cr ? Back in US in 1960s, when inflation galloped, the salaries in private sector increased and that in Govt did not increase that fast. So policemen etc started quitting, but did not resort to corruption as Jurors would have imprisoned them if caught. When Govt staff started quitting, the Govts increased the salary, and so quitting reduced.

Corruption is ONLY because briber taker and giver know they can get away.. They will not get caught or even if caught with proofs, they will still get away. And getting away becomes easier, they become more corrupt. And if getting away becomes difficult, they become less corrupt. There is no other parameter that controls behavior of babudom as a whole. Now individual babus will have variation that would fall in a bell curve. But average of that curve will depend only on how easy it is to get away.

[Rahul Mehta]

ShauryaT : Transplanting another system is not the answer, the answer lies in the exploration of Indic systems and suitably modify them for current times, as Sri Aurobindo had done. SD is a living dharma and the Varna-Ashrama-Purusharthas system can be modified and changed as required.

ShauryaT,

Sri Aurobindo never gave PROCEDURE CODE to implement his proposals. So like Marx, he is incomplete - giving only a vague system description and no code to implement the system he wants. If anyone has faith in Sri Aurobindo's proposed administrative system, he needs to spend time and provide full procedure code. In absence of code, there is no way to prove or disprove how good his system will deliver. The incompleteness in code is the most fearsome element. When administrative code is incomplete, each Nbjpr takes full advantage of this incompleteness.

In my case, I have taken EXISTING procedure code and given full code sequence of the changes I propose. Hence I am not increasing the incompleteness at any point, I am only decreasing it.

So you want existing system to be replaced by Sri Aurobindo's proposed system, you have two options I can think of

1. Provide full procedure code that replaces existing one.

2. Take existing code, and provide sequence of changes you want.

But in absence of both, I cannot say whether Sri Aurobindo's proposed system is better than what we have.

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RamaY: RM says -Mining lease: Disburse majority of mining leases to all citizens below certain income levels. This will ensure that mercantile group doesn’t exploit common resources single handedly.

ShauryaT: Proof that this will work better than the state auctioning these to private entities, who can be more productive is?

ShauryaT,

Sometimes I wish that for every hour BRites spend on writing what I wrote, they would spend a minute on reading what I wrote. Because this confusion would not have come in that case. I am not saying that entire mining will be done by PSUs only. In the procedure I proposed -- mine plots and land plots *are* auctioned to players as you said. And private and PSU players have to bid on the same level field. The only thing I demand is : The RENT they pay goes to commons. IOW, if IIMA is occupying the plot - I dont care whether IIMA is private or PSU. All I am saying that rent from IIMA plot goes straight to commons. Likewise, consider Ahmedabad airport plot. I dont mind privatizing Airports. But be private or PSU Airports, I want land rent at mkt price. And if there is oil field, both ONGC and Reliance are welcome. The only demand I make is that royalties goes straight to commons. There is no deep ideology in this "direct to common". This what Thomas Paine suggested in 1790 and I am only providing administrative system to what he suggested in 1790. And the direct transfer is also because of utter corruption in Nbjpr - I dont want to let them have this money. You perhaps think that I insist that only PSU should be allowed in mining. That isn't the case

Also, the change I proposed comes AFTER First Demand aka MTMT demand, and will come ONLY if 37 crore voters files YES on it. So at core, I have ONLY one demand - MTMT law. The Land Rent law comes after 37 crore citizen voters file YES. So if you think it is horrible system, why do you assume that 37 crore people will also think the same way as I do?

RamaY: RM says - Hereditary wealth tax: This ensures that beyond a reasonable amount (1cr per offspring) is not accumulated by parents in order to pass on the wealth. The valuation must be worked out. I think a Rs 10 Crores per child is a fair limit with some exceptions such as if the dwelling (one per child) is worth more than 10 Crs, the child is allowed to get the house.

ShauryaT: A sure shot guarantee that wealth will leave India by the hoards. Even a wealth tax is effectively double taxation and an affront to the concept of fair play. It is justified only by the greed of the state, to amass wealth for itself.

How is one going to take land outside India ? How will wealth attached with land move by hoards or even by inch? Was Dhirubhai Ambani going to take refinery to Switzerland if there was inheritance tax of 35% on his wealth? And wealth tax also applies on wealth you have outside India. As per Swiss bank type banks, we need a Military Solution to that problem and that has nothing to do with tax laws. I dunno how many countries' tax code you studied. US had inheritance tax of 20% to 70% since 1910 and now 45%. Japan had inheritance tax which goes up to 50%. Germany has wealth tax of 3%. All this herring against wealth tax and inheritance tax is flatly wrong - and there are 20 countries tax codes to prove that. I will start a thread on tax laws and discuss more there.

RamaY: National ID System: Which links an individuals wealth, income, revenue records, lands possessions, bank accounts, and everything. This will ensure that individuals are not given any chance to falsify their possessions. If an asset is not reported by any individual it will belong to the state.

ShauryaT: What is this fascination with "reporting" everything, as if it is a crime to own things. I will pay to the state, what the state decrees as tax, not a penny more. I will declare to the state, only what I minimally have to and nothing more. These concepts are the essence of freedom. Read some works of the Constitution and especially works that seek the strengthen the concepts of privacy, sorely lacking in the Indian constitution.

Unless transactions, land records are tied with IDs, Govt cant find or prove that there was evasion. eg Till 2004, co-operative banks gave interest and income tax dept often failed to collect interest on it as co-op banks were not required to keep PAN-IDs.

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Right to Recall: this will put the implementation portion in people’s hands. I have seen arguments on implementation. But if we want to be serious about removing corruption from society, we need this type of law. Its usage will diminish as people see more responsible behavior from the key bureaucratic positions.

1. It is also a cop out, from being responsible and taken to its extreme as RM suggests will lead to anarchy.

2. RM takes maximal positions, knowing fully well that his concepts, even if they have merit in parts, will never be implemented in full but he takes these maximal positions to further his agenda. Please do not take the above personally.

Between 1970-1988, USSR Govt used to imprison people for owning Xerox machine !! Xerox machines were banned !! What sort of regime would be afraid of xerox machines? If you worry that recall would result into large scale expulsion of existing Nbjpr, then perhaps that alone speaks about what opinion you have about existing Nbjpr. That aside, recall INCREASES stability in regime as when recall procedure comes, the Nbjpr behave well and so recall is seldom invoked and hence it seldom results into chaos. eg in US, only 4 Governors faced recalled and only 2 actually got recalled. At district level, hardly 4 police chiefs in 1000s got recalled in past 100 years !! This shows that recall creates stability as well as low-corrupt regimes.

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Sanku: I think RMjee's discussion are harmful since they completely trivialize the main issues. It is like asking the nation to forget about the rising tide and completely devote all its intellectual ability to discuss which actress in Hollywood is the prettiest. { should I OR }

1. In a country where we cant agree if we can hold free and fair elections once in 5 years or if EVMs work -- he wants a right to recall.

2. In a country where the basic distribution methods are shot, he wants mineral rights to be equally distributed.

3. And note this is apart from the correctness of the idea itself -- for example wealth tax is known to be a hateful exercise which no one wants and only causes more damage to economy.

1. Of the procedure code I proposed for recall on over 150 positions, none use EVN or ballots paper. Only the recall of police chief uses ballot. So malfunction of EVM is non-issue as far as my proposed procedure code. Also, I am anti-EVM and pro-paper.

2. You erected a strawmen and then knocked it down. Nowhere I said that "every one gets mineral rights" or every Indian will get 1 sqcm of the 100 acre plot of IIMA. All I said was dispatching the rent/royalties to ALL Indians into their Post Office accounts of SBI accounts. eg Today, GoI gives Rs 200 to every elderly person and that schemes works with near zero corruption. Some 20-30 lakh pensioners get pensions in their bank account and corruption is near zero. The change I proposed is similar. It will require GoI to send payments to some 70 cr post office or SBI accounts. It would need no more than 200,000 clerks. Is that too bing? Well, existing PSU banks have 800,000 clerks.

3. How many commons did you discuss wealth tax with? Because of the 1000+ commons I talked to, EVERYONE supported wealth tax of 1% on non agri land above 25sqm per person and agri land above 5 acre per person. And everyone also supported inheritance tax of 45% on inheritance above Rs 2 cr plus one mid-size house per heir. Only Nbjprie disagreed, as many have 100s or crores of wealth. And they are only 10,00,000 of them in India. IOW, my proposal of wealth tax and inheritance tax is something that 99.9% Indians like and less than 0.1% hate. I dunno how you got the idea that "everyone hates wealth tax" proposal.

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I will discuss more in Good Governance Thread. And will create a thread on tax laws.

I would also re-request admins to allow to me start a "Right to Recall Party's proposed changes in administration, courts" thread. Thats would keep all Recall-stuff out of other "pious" threads and confine most of the "pollution" to 1-3 threads. It is hard to keep threads recall-free now, as too many BRites like Shiv, Arjun etc are infected with recall-mania . But a separate thread would reduce headaches recall-phobic people get.

[Sanku]

Go to any book shop in India and compare the number of books being sold in English (and I do not mean technical books) compared to books in any vernacular language and then come and tell me how English is not crowding out/Killing Indian languages.

If a author writing in one of the Indian languages (other than English) makes enough as he would if he wrote in English (in any given region) I would not worry.

The proof is obvious.

-------------

Pro_indian != anti english. The question is not of throwing english out. The question is making sure the Indian idioms stay alive.

[Stan_Savljevic]

I assume folks here know about this:
INTERNATIONAL FORUM FOR INDIA'S HERITAGE
http://www.geocities.com/ifihhome/

[Rahul Mehta]

Go to any book shop in India and compare the number of books being sold in English (and I do not mean technical books) compared to books in any vernacular language and then come and tell me how English is not crowding out/Killing Indian languages.

If a author writing in one of the Indian languages (other than English) makes enough as he would if he wrote in English (in any given region) I would not worry.

The proof is obvious.

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Pro_indian != anti english. The question is not of throwing english out. The question is making sure the Indian idioms stay alive.

So what solutions do you propose?

And in case you are demanding GoI intervention to save the Indic languages, pls provide full procedure code.

[Keshav]

And in case you are demanding GoI intervention to save the Indic languages, pls provide full procedure code.

I think a lot of it has to do with Indians themselves. From the schools that punish speaking vernacular to private hospitals that punish the same thing, Indians have an inferiority complex but it goes deeper than that.

It isn't English that's important. It's having a national language and India doesn't have that. If Nehru's attempt to nationalize Hindi had worked, I think there would be far fewer people using English. But it didn't.

The only way you can prevent that is if you make sure that every student is classically schooled in both his mother tongue and English as well as another Indian language plus Sanskrit.

My German teacher grew in Southern Germany where for 7 or 8 years (from a young age), they had rigorous study in 4 to 6 languages - German, French, English, Spanish, Latin, and possibly Greek.

[Abhi_G]

^^^^

All State boards have local language and English in their syllabi. In many state boards, English is started late which is detrimental to the students who have a very hard time to catch up English at a latter stage. One can take Sanskrit as a third language but many people in my state take Hindi. Many schools (mostly in cities) offer foreign languages as third language, mostly German and French AFAIK. I do not understand the need of these languages in schools over Sanskrit, when if one has interests, they can be pursued at the Alliance Francais or German centers.

[Rahul M]

I learnt four languages in school, all were compulsory.
english, bangla, hindi and sanskrit in order of importance. this was an eng medium school under CBSE.
sanskrit wasn't taught that seriously, we had it for only three years but you still had to pass it to clear the class.

even in state board of WB students learn the same combo, only the roles of eng and bangla are reversed.

[Keshav]

The other aspect to the language issue is culture. People are not that influenced in their basic schooling unless one particular subject is pushed on the students (in an madrassah, Islamic studies are pushed) but the other part is certainly what the culture pushes.

If people speak Hinglish in daily conversion rather than Hindi, that is what people are going to speak regardless of what they learn in school. The more obvious example is Sanskrit or Latin. People learn it but nobody uses it except for those villages that speak it on a day to day basis.

Another aspect is ease of use. Is it easier to write a novel in English and have all Indians read it or to write a novel in Tamil and have it be translated into the various languages? Are people who are educated more likely to read in their mother tongue or English? The ease of one solution versus the other for publishers also comes into perspective.

[munna]

My German teacher grew in Southern Germany where for 7 or 8 years (from a young age), they had rigorous study in 4 to 6 languages - German, French, English, Spanish, Latin, and possibly Greek.

I studied 4 languages (rigorous to boot) English, Hindi, Punjabi and Sanskrit in my school and even took Sanskrit as a minor language subject in my under-grad. Unfortunately neither I am German TFTA nor am I expected to know of Vedas because some body in USA thinks so.
Just in case the higher gods did not notice that amounts to learning not only 4 languages but 3 scripts too unlike the incestuous Roman script common to European languages but being SDREs we are not supposed to beat TFTA Germans/Amirkhans or are we?

[Prem]

Munna
Did you go to Arya school /DAV ?

[pgbhat]

Just in case the higher gods did not notice that amounts to learning not only 4 languages but 3 scripts too unlike the incestuous Roman script common to European languages but being SDREs we are not supposed to beat TFTA Germans/Amirkhans or are we?

[munna]

Munna
Did you go to Arya school /DAV ?

Yes Premji moi went to both DAV school and DAV college infact my entire khaandan is full of DAV alumni. People should look at these institutions and then dare say that Indic people are bad at missionary education.

[Prem]

DAV schooling good .
Remind me of reciting Sanskrit gardans and Gayatri mantra .

[munna]

DAV schooling good .
Remind me of reciting Sanskrit gardans and Gayatri mantra .

I would credit a large part of my knowledge of Geeta and Veds to my Acharyaji in college who although in charge of a small department of college had trmendous influence on me. My thoughts about society, ancient Indian culture and philosophy owe a lot to the teachings that I received in his Sanskrit lectures. DAVs through the time have modernized and have opened up excellent Engineering colleges too and even in those Sandhya Mantras and Gayatri are taught. Apart from this in my school in Punjab (academically the best school of Punjab) we also had Sikh Mool Mantar and Japji Sahab being explained and recited during assemblies, now that is what I call liberalism and true education. But unfortunately some Slumdawg watching, Obama T Shirt wearing and "yindoo be damned, yindoo be damned" speaking crowd believes that they are final arbiters of liberalism and secularism when in reality they have experienced zilch of true Indian tolerance and liberalism.

Education in true Indic mode is a big mover and shaker in terms of furthering Indian interests and is one place where break down of state monopoly will help India a long way.

[ramana]

Munna, There was a DAV college in Lahore before Partition? Is it still functioning?

[munna]

Munna, There was a DAV college in Lahore before Partition? Is it still functioning?

You have touched a raw nerve Ramana sir!
My grandfather went to that famous seat of learning but alas after 1947 the MLeague thugs took over the land and renamed DAV college Islamia college and what not. The college had priceless manuscripts ancient sanskrit texts and when the ML thulla crowd was murdering all Hindu-Sikhs the prospects for the Sanskrit library were certainly gloomy. However some daredevil and intrepid professors of the college took the chankian decision of hiding books and manuscripts in Vegetable gunny bags and thus were able to bring the priceless heritage via trains to safe hands in East Punjab. Mind you I remind myself of the fall of DAV Lahore as the second fall of Takshila, the karmabhoomi of many a freedom fighters and patriots became the playground of fanatics and bigots. The ancient books and manuscripts are being lovingly restored by DAV Chandigarh college and digitized under a Governemnt funded and partly own financed project. The college also has a special section in the library devoted to those texts and I had the good fortune of seeig them on a visit for youth festival organized there. Must visit for all lovers of Sanskrit and ancient India.

EDIT:

While at it Ramanaji technically speaking DAV Chandigarh is the successor college of DAV Lahore and I was surprised to find out that the college Alumni received 1 PVCs and 2 MVC in Kargil War. Vikram Batra and 2 others, I dont remember the names I guess. What the heck the college calls the administrative office as Shaurya Bhavan! Take that for patriotism.