Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 01 Jul 2009 20:05

pgbhat wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Couples counseling for India and Pakistan by Deepak Chopra: San Francisco Chronicle
A few Indians could have remained unconceived and unborn.
Same old same old ...... WKK brigade ..... common this ....common that .... equal-equal ..... peace onlee BS.
It is all editor's fault onlee.

I can bet you, assuming he has some brains that is, which is not in doubt, if you scratch him, beneath the skin, he knows TSP's perfidy. But even after decaldes counselling the elites of the elites, he still feels insecure as an SDRE in the eyes of whites, so he has to behave like a 'good boy', go with the previaling wisdom instead of expressing a nationalist viewpoint, and offfer condescending advise to us 'right wing extremists' in India whose only fault is to demand that TSP be brought to justice for perpetrating mass murder in India. I am sure the same Chopra will morph into an American nationalist should the topic be so called "Al Queda" terrorism against US. Once again, he has to be a good boy and go with the prevailing wind. I like the way he so causually inserts the lie that TSP has cracked down on Indian-specific terrorists. But don't dismiss such crap; he will find resonance among large sections of the Indian populace.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 01 Jul 2009 20:09

shiv wrote:
Maybe this should go in the Indian psyche thread because his attitude reminds me of an incident I witnessed recently.

Can you poiint me to the link where you describe this incident?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Jul 2009 20:14

meanwhile, over in islamabad, the BBC's kraspandant seeth the light

If you no longer know what the point of your country is, it becomes very difficult to win any war, let alone one against an internal enemy that offers Islamic piety laced with anti-Western poison.

Pakistan's real enemy these days does not sit on the other side of the country's Eastern border in India.

It is the homegrown cancer of extremism, festering in the cities and fanned in the tribal areas, which is far more dangerous.

And yet most of the army's divisions are still lingering on the Eastern front - only two reserve divisions have been deployed on the Western border with Afghanistan, where the real battle is taking place.

"India is still our mortal enemy," a general told me. "They are using this as a diversion. It's a trap!"

And then it struck me. Without India as its cherished enemy, Pakistan - a patchwork of diverse people, languages and geography - would have to go back to the drawing board and redefine why it actually exists.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Jul 2009 20:25

Lalmohan wrote:meanwhile, over in islamabad, the BBC's kraspandant seeth the light

"And then it struck me. Without India as its cherished enemy, Pakistan - a patchwork of diverse people, languages and geography - would have to go back to the drawing board and redefine why it actually exists."

It exists because the British wanted it to exist! If this kraspandent wants to know the reason, he should research in Great Britain for the reasons, not in Pakistan. The peepel in Pakistan are still confused and cuckoo, and keep on parroting nonsensical slogans.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Jul 2009 20:31

CRamS wrote:
shiv wrote:
Maybe this should go in the Indian psyche thread because his attitude reminds me of an incident I witnessed recently.
Can you poiint me to the link where you describe this incident?

Sure - if I actually get down to describing it. I probably will - but will wait for a time when it is appropriate and relevant to something being discussed.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Jul 2009 20:43

RajeshA-ji, am fine with all of the historical logic. However, just like the modern germans and the historical nazis, whatever the british did is also history. the current identity of pakistan is a problem right here right now for the people of pakistan and also for the people of india, no matter how much meddling we think is going on from outside countries.

with respect, we need to deal with today's problems ourselves.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Jul 2009 21:00

Lalmohan ji,
you're of course right.

My comment was directed at Matt Frei. It is British propensity to create problems and then wonder why the problem exists, as if they had nothing to do with it.

As far as the present is concerned, it is still British cousins, the Americans who are prolonging the existence of this state, whose own citizens don't know, for what it exists.

But anyone that America touches outside Europe is a certain kiss of death. In case of Pakistan, it has been more than touched. America has GUBOed it so much, that Pakistan's sphincter is now broken. Now all the $hit is coming out and spreading everywhere. The problem will be solved, when Pakistan gets buried under its own $hit. Ameen!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Jul 2009 21:06

RajeshA wrote:As far as the present is concerned, it is still British cousins, the Americans who are prolonging the existence of this state, whose own citizens don't know, for what it exists.

imperial britain
nazi germany
tojo's japan
macarthur's philipines
pre de gaulle french algeria

the list is long

the modern inhabitants of these nations do not relate much to what happened in the past, often they are not taught or are in complete denial even when taught

your broken sphincter analogy is apt.

my point is that we should understand the past, (not directed at you) but we have to be the masters of our own destiny, uptil now we never had the degrees of freedom to be able to do so

time has come...

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jul 2009 21:21

shiv wrote:
Maybe this should go in the Indian psyche thread because his attitude reminds me of an incident I witnessed recently.

I think you (?) described the incident with Indra Nooyi Pepsi CEO behaving like a stiff upper lip upitty gora Memsahib at a function held by indians in the US. She would normally behave down to earth when she is amidst the goras, and behave like a good girl.

I think it is a generational thing. People of the age of Deepak Chopra and Indra Nooyi who went to the west in the heydays of White supremacy were molded into that mode where they felt overawed by the superior character of the Goras.
The goras generally speaking, have had a massive downfall since, with people from India and china specifically having usurped them in both leadership and education. To their credit this generation of westerners are relatively free of the supremacist behavior shown by their parents. They are more accommodating and trying to become good members of the multipolar world.

arun · Post by **arun** » 01 Jul 2009 21:33

Lalmohan wrote:meanwhile, over in islamabad, the BBC's kraspandant seeth the light

If you no longer know what the point of your country is, it becomes very difficult to win any war, let alone one against an internal enemy that offers Islamic piety laced with anti-Western poison.

Pakistan's real enemy these days does not sit on the other side of the country's Eastern border in India.

It is the homegrown cancer of extremism, festering in the cities and fanned in the tribal areas, which is far more dangerous.

And yet most of the army's divisions are still lingering on the Eastern front - only two reserve divisions have been deployed on the Western border with Afghanistan, where the real battle is taking place.

"India is still our mortal enemy," a general told me. "They are using this as a diversion. It's a trap!"

And then it struck me. Without India as its cherished enemy, Pakistan - a patchwork of diverse people, languages and geography - would have to go back to the drawing board and redefine why it actually exists.

In the end for Pakistan it always boils down to India

Christine Fair of Rand provides her view on why the Pakistan Army is incapable of fixing Pakistan’s problems. Naturally India figures prominently as an excuse attributed to the Pakistan Army

.

Unfortunately Christine Fair does not devote any time to the topic as to why the US has continued to supply Pakistan with equipment that is only useful for conventional wars and not counter-insurgency operations such as Harpoon Anti-Ship Missiles, AMRAAM Anti-Aircraft Missiles, Orion Anti-Submarine Warfare Aircraft and such like. In the end perhaps the choice of equipment has less to do with the beneficiaries (Pakistan’s) desires and more to do with the benefactors (The US) desires

:

JUNE 30, 2009

Policing Pakistan

The army isn't well equipped to fight the insurgency.

There are many reasons why the army can't fix what ails the nation. First, sustained use of the army against its own citizens goes against the grain. A number of Pakistani officers have told me that they did not join the army to kill Pakistanis; they joined to kill Indians. …………………

Second, the army has resisted developing a counter-insurgency doctrine. It prefers to plan and train for conventional battles and views its struggle against insurgents as a "low-intensity" conventional conflict. Washington has been slow to understand that this is not a quibble over semantics but a serious difference in how the army intends to contend with the threat. The Pakistani army believes India is its principal nemesis, not the insurgents who have occupied the Swat valley and destabilized Pakistan and the region. ……………….................

Wall Street Journal

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 01 Jul 2009 21:47

Policing Pakistan
The army isn't well equipped to fight the insurgency.

It is not a tooling issue -

Can the jackal (opportunistic Kamandu) be retrained to be the guard dog (similar to Indian Defense forces)?
Ms. Fair's suggestion to take away the meat from the jackal and provide it to the chihuahua - aka TSP Police - will only make the worse situation dire!
Without the teeth of an impartial judiciary, all this will do is piss of both the Army as well as the Police. They will still be at the mercy of corrupt interference from vested interests.
The turn around time and costs to accomplish (even if possible) will be higher.
There is a slightly more risky but cost effective route -

What is required is a culture change, not a tool change in TSP Army.
Only few ways to accomplish that - and it starts at the top.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jul 2009 21:58

Money to the Pak army = Money to Kiyani and the crore commanders.
Money to the Pak police = Money to Zardari.

Play both sides of the coin, more competition in the market improves services to the consumer = the US.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 01 Jul 2009 22:07

Sounds like the risk response of fund managers who took on more risk then they could chew!

If you bet big (dump money) and lose (have nothing to show for it) -
bet more (dump more money) somewhere else and hope to make it back.

Of course - by setting up the jackal against chihuahua - US may be benefiting India long run!

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 01 Jul 2009 22:11

http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data ... 1242934202

http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data ... 1236306018

http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data ... 1245255648

Okay which one of you is posting this to discredit the glorious caliphate of the true believers.Obviously even ISI 'public relations' would not be so clumsy that only the brain damaged would believe their press releases.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 01 Jul 2009 22:20

Bhima wrote:Terror in Mumbai (49 mins video)

Description:

The untold story of 2008's terrorist attack, in the words of its victims and the gunmen. The programme contains graphic images and descriptions of the atrocity which may upset some viewers. Produced and directed by award-winning filmmaker Dan Reed, Terror in Mumbai tells the story of what happened when 10 gunmen held one of the world's busiest cities hostage; killing and wounding hundreds of people while holding India's crack security forces at bay.
Featuring footage of the attacks and interviews with senior police officers and hostages, including the testimony from Kasab - the sole surviving gunman, Dispatches reveals what happened, hour by hour, from the perspective of the security forces, the terrorists, their masterminds and the victims.

not open for viewing outside UK

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jul 2009 22:22

Not even with a proxy server. Someone needs to upload this to youtube or make available as a rapidshare link.

Vinod Ji · Post by **Vinod Ji** » 01 Jul 2009 22:29

recommend any program to download it. I have access to it but internet download manager can not download.. suggest any capture program

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 01 Jul 2009 22:33

shiv wrote: Well before anyone criticizes what Deepak Chopra says - I just want to ask: If your car breaks down, whom would you call?

1) Plumber
2) Doctor
3) Prostitute
4) None of the above

If your answer is 4, don't bother reading the article. What else would you expect if you polled a person for help outside his speciality? OTOH Deepak Chopra's speciality may be bullshitting - in which case the article is par for the course.

AFAIK, couple of years ago, Deepaak Chopra did hire a Prostitute one time . Onlee diffeence was his car was parked and not broken. The guy has gone completely DIE and living proof of disconnenct between education , fame and Wisdom.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Jul 2009 22:49

Lalmohan wrote:meanwhile, over in islamabad, the BBC's kraspandant seeth the light

And then it struck me. Without India as its cherished enemy, Pakistan - a patchwork of diverse people, languages and geography - would have to go back to the drawing board and redefine why it actually exists.

Yet, it is for the same British to answer that question.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jul 2009 22:50

Here it is:

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 01 Jul 2009 22:55

sanjaykumar wrote:http://www.fartwinds10.com/siterun_data ... 1242934202

http://www.fartwinds10.com/siterun_data ... 1236306018

http://www.fartrwinds10.com/siterun_dat ... 1245255648

Okay which one of you is posting this to discredit the glorious caliphate of the true believers.Obviously even ISI 'public relations' would not be so clumsy that only the brain damaged would believe their press releases.

21st century Prophet Zaid Hamid and his minstrel Ahmed quraishi.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 02 Jul 2009 00:59

Poor Obama Don't Get Any Respect from Pakistanis:

http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSN30441851

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 02 Jul 2009 01:20

Vinod Ji wrote:recommend any program to download it. I have access to it but internet download manager can not download.. suggest any capture program

In firefox, there is a plugin called download helper. It can download videos from any site.Hope, it helps.

Bhima · Post by **Bhima** » 02 Jul 2009 01:37

Thanks Gagan.

archan · Post by **archan** » 02 Jul 2009 01:39

sanjaykumar wrote:http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data ... 1242934202

http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data ... 1236306018

http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data ... 1245255648

Okay which one of you is posting this to discredit the glorious caliphate of the true believers.Obviously even ISI 'public relations' would not be so clumsy that only the brain damaged would believe their press releases.

Wasn't there a report from the paki intelligence themselves that they were confused about finding so many uncircumcised men and later found out that they come from remote villages in pak itself and remained uncircumcised due to lack of a barber or a doctor in their village? does anyone have a link to that?
Funny that the pakis take this as _the_ ultimate proof of them being RAW agents and Hindus. Such is the intellectual bankruptcy of that society.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 02 Jul 2009 01:52

Gagan wrote:Here it is:

Memorialize this. Never forget. Never surrender. This war with the napakis must reach its logical conclusion.

Jai Ho.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 02 Jul 2009 01:59

anupmisra wrote:
Gagan wrote:Here it is:
Memorialize this. Never forget. Never surrender. This war with the napakis must reach its logical conclusion.

Jai Ho.

Pretty well made! Thanks Gagan. Should get some publicity, this video.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 Jul 2009 02:01

In part 4
At 7:21 onwards, we hear a pakistani controller talk to the israeli hostage at nariman point. They were trying to secure Kasab's release.

Does this pakistani controller sound like our good General Hamid Gul or what? Am I imagining this?

I only posted the youtube link.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 02 Jul 2009 02:02

Sanjay M wrote:Poor Obama Don't Get Any Respect from Pakistanis:

http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSN30441851

But they didn't ask the question that mattered most - "Which is the greater threat to Pakstan - India or the Taliban?" and then watch the Pakistanis coming back into the fold at once.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 Jul 2009 02:04

It sure sounds like hamid gul.
At 7:50 onwards on part 4. First in english to the hostage lady then in urdu to the terrorists

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 02 Jul 2009 02:24

Gagan wrote:It sure sounds like hamid gul.
At 7:50 onwards on part 4. First in english to the hostage lady then in urdu to the terrorists

I don't think Gul is that stupid to talk on an open telephone line knowing very well that these conversations are being easily picked up by the world's premier intelligence agencies.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 Jul 2009 02:37

There were news reports that the controllers said this to the terrorists over phone, 'General sahib has arrived into the control center and is congratulating you'

There are two 'generals' in pakistan most closely associated with the LET. (SSridhar will be able to elaborate more on this)
1. Hamid gul
2. Mirza aslam beg

Western news reports also said that most likely, this general was hamid gul.

These people were using voip to make calls to the terrorists. They didn't beleive that their calls were being recorded. They were confident, that the moment the indians discovered the telephone contact with pakistan, the lines would be jammed.
The general came on only on the second day onwards, they must have been delighted that they had fooled the indians, and the indians had no knowledge of their close control of the terrorists.

Now that this is out in the open, someone needs to do a voice print analysis or something to conclusively identify the gentleman in question. This gentleman is certainly a well known person. I think he is gul, because the youtube intervies of gul I've heard, the whistling noise he makes as he begins to speak sounds familiar.

Edited later:
The Punjabi speaking controller has previously been identified as Zarar Shah, LET's communication chief.
Zaki-ur-rehman lakhvi was the main planner of this attack.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Jul 2009 02:41

Even after all this evidence, the Pakistani request for more evidence is ONLY to figure out which holes, India found, to plug the next time around.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 02 Jul 2009 02:41

Hamid Gul or Zaid Gul , one and the same thing, no difference, they are all Guulls and as the man said never to be spared . We must get a grinder to make keema out of them and feed to the Pigs .

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 Jul 2009 02:47

India had better not pussyfoot after this is out. These people need to be taken out period.

Prem wrote: We must get a grinder to make keema out of them and feed to the Pigs .

I understand that pigs are not cannibals.

won't eat their own kind.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Jul 2009 02:48

anupmisra wrote:
Gagan wrote:It sure sounds like hamid gul.
At 7:50 onwards on part 4. First in english to the hostage lady then in urdu to the terrorists
I don't think Gul is that stupid to talk on an open telephone line knowing very well that these conversations are being easily picked up by the world's premier intelligence agencies.

He has been open in the past - so that is not an issue, I do not think he cares. The issue is IF he was involved with this op.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 Jul 2009 02:55

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ ... s_in_p.php

Six Pakistani handlers monitored the news coverage from Mumbai and kept in constant touch with the terrorists holed up in Nariman House and the Taj Mahal and Trident hotels during the three day siege. The handlers are identified as Zarar, Kafa, Wassi, Jundal, Buzurg, and “Major General.”

Zarar has been identified as Zarar Shah, the Lashkar-e-Taiba communications expert who set up the network that allowed the Mumbai terrorists to speak with Lashkar-e-Taiba commanders in Pakistan during the attack. He also served as a key liaison between the terror group and Pakistan's Inter-Service Intelligence agency. Zarar is currently in Pakistani custody and has admitted to his role in the Mumbai attacks.

The identity of the other handlers has not been provided, but India has accused elements within Pakistan’s intelligence service and the military of supporting the attack. The handler identified as “Major General” implies the involvement of a current or former military officer. The Inter-Service Intelligence agency is a branch of the Pakistani military. The ISI chief and Army corps commanders achieve the rank of Major General or Lieutenant General.

A senior US military intelligence official familiar with the dossier said that the "Major General" is indeed Hamid Gul, the retired former chief of the ISI. "It's Gul," the official told The Long War Journal. "This is why the US is trying to get him on the UN list of terrorists." In December 2008 the US attempted to get Hamid Gul and other former military and intelligence officials added to the UN list of designated terrorists but has so far been rebuffed

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 02 Jul 2009 03:05

NRao wrote:He has been open in the past - so that is not an issue, I do not think he cares. The issue is IF he was involved with this op.

When? Link?

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 02 Jul 2009 03:07

Why would they call him Major General, if it wasn't Gul? He's the only guy who fits the profile.

Anyway, here's more from

NYT:

In Pakistani Relief Camps, Charities Press Anti-U.S. View