Indian Army Discussion

[Anoop]

How would the use of a paid civilian employee prevent misuse and maltreatment? If the job description of the employee is the same as that of the sahayak and he is put to work on household chores or spoken to rudely, what is the material difference? As with anything else, the need of the hour is to prevent misuse of the system and to treat people with respect. Aberrations should be dealt with firmly.

Ray sahab, that is truly hilarious about the movie watching experience .

[Surya]

Because a paid civilian employee generally has the ability to tell them to #$#%% off and quit if abused.

[Avinash R]

My office has blocked uploading - so cant upload files.. can somebody upload the screenshots of MSM from one of the March issues -- in which there was a appreciation letter from CO 202AA sqn to HAL.

[atreya]

I can understand the need for a sahayak in a field posting, away from family and all homely amenities but in peace postings it is bound to be misused, however small or large that % is in proportion to the total no of such men employed.
even one such case will generate much bitterness and negative publicity.

Ray Sir, any inputs.

Now, if one is to look after his uniform and make it spotless and smart, then he requires time. And let me tell you getting a uniform ready takes a good part of an hour and a half, if one is to shine his pips and his shoes (this is where it takes time). At least, that is what I have experienced because many a time I had to do it myself. Let me also assure you that in a Durbar of mine as a CO, I found a chap with dirty boots. I asked him why is his boot dirty? He said he did not find the time. I got him up to the dais and shone his boots. It was to show dignity of labour. I told the Durbar, that I had not demeaned myself. I knew that I was CO and the world knew that I was a CO and therefore, whatever I did was only for the betterment of the image of the Army and in no way, did I degrade myself! Of course, there can be many views on my action, but I have no regrets or shame. In fact, it was well received in my unit!

RayC sir, I really respect you for what you have done. To polish the shoes of a junior officer in front of the whole unit...one needs lots of humility to do such a thing. I think, things like these make an officer a legend in the Army!

[ASPuar]

Indeed, and such an action can only be carried out by those with a high degree of self confidence.

Another famous military personality also had done the same thing, long ago. Marshal Georgii K Zhukov, of the Soviet Union. When he was a Lieutenant General in the 1930s, he ordered a man on parade, whose boots were unclean to step up to him, called for a table, and to the horror of all assembled, he polished his boots.

He ended his boot polishing, with the following remarks, which were characteristic of the man:

"All soldiers are expected to maintain standards. If you do not know how, we will teach you. If you still will not.... comrades, we are the Red Army. And we will MAKE you".

[RayC]

@RayC sir,
I get that there is a lot of workload during peacetime too, but why cannot the work of a sahayak be performed by a paid civilian in peace areas?

A sahayak is not merely to look after the Officer and his needs.

He is the protector of the officer in the field when he performing his tasks under fire. The officer is busy recceeing, observing, planning and giving orders. It requires concentration and moving around. At that time, he cannot worry about his personal safety. His sahayak looks after that safety by observing the enemy as he also move around with the officer.

Therefore a bond is required, wherein sahayak will gve his life for his officer, if indeed that situation comes to that.

Interrupted associations cannot build that bond.

Vats has explained the difference between the combat or frontline units and the Corps (service support units).

It is not that the Army cannot do without sahayaks. Nothing much will happen. Only the efficiency of the officer will drop and we will have shabbily turned out officers. If that is fine by the country, controlled by conniving bureaucrats, so be it!

[Rahul M]

Sir, both you and other members have mentioned that the rules regarding behaviour with sahayaks have become stricter in the recent past.
May we know what these are and how these are enforced ?
thanks.

[RayC]

Sir, both you and other members have mentioned that the rules regarding behaviour with sahayaks have become stricter in the recent past.
May we know what these are and how these are enforced ?
thanks.

By the CO.

if there is any complaints, he is up a gum tree!

And today's officers are very carrer conscious!

Then there is he FS section (Intel) who gives reports.


So, life is tough!

Between you and me, if sahayak are taken away and one is allowed to come unshaved and slovenly and yet collect his pay, who cares? That would be paradise!

However, an untidy mind is an undtidy worker and with untidy men to work with!

Have you seen hospitals?

it has clean envoronments and a garden! It keeps the mentality efficient and happy!

Compare it with govt hospitals with patients lying on the floor!

What is the medical comfort and patient survivability?

[Rahul M]

Between you and me, if sahayak are taken away and one is allowed to come unshaved and slovenly and yet collect his pay, who cares? That would be paradise!

who knows, may be one of these days we would see a casual dress day in the IA with shorts and T-shirts, like they have in the corporate sector !

a start has been already made with the fatigues !

[RayC]

Between you and me, if sahayak are taken away and one is allowed to come unshaved and slovenly and yet collect his pay, who cares? That would be paradise!

who knows, may be one of these days we would see a casual dress day in the IA with shorts and T-shirts, like they have in the corporate sector !

a start has been already made with the fatigues !

why not total undress?

Sec 377 is going to be valid soon!

Joking apart, does the jawan lying in heap on the platforms in untidy combat dress instil any pride in the civilians that they are fit to guard the nation?

I don't blame them. They may have no reservations and there would not be a Sainik Rest room!

We take the soldier's stoic and loyalty for granted.

But things are changing!

[shiv]

Things are certainly changing and those changes are visible in civilian life as well.

Just two decades ago we had an old and faithful "servant" at home who had first been employed by my grandfather in the 1930s (My grandfather died in 1955 ). This man was a modern day version of a batman who would make up my father's bed at night in a manner I have never seen before or since. He was totally trustworthy and he would sometimes dust off my grandfather's "durbar coat" with a reverence that was eerie - his body language suggested that my dead grandfather was still in that coat. Many households probably still have a servant of this type - but the fact is that people of this sort were products of a feudal system in which the social class of servant and master would not meet.

That is all changing. India has introduced many laws that make it difficult to continue this system. The batman/faithful servant system was never about money. It was about lifelong loyalty and an invisible glue. But "modern day laws" call for minimum wages, legal limits to the number of hours of work allowed - one day off in a week etc. None of these factors held true with the old style servant. He was there 24x7 and he was not doing it to become rich. He would not expect his son to go to a CBSE school and become a "software engineer" - but that sort of expectation has become commonplace along with "minimum wage" and "weekly day off".

The "batman" I am guessing is a dying institution. No doubt society will come up with new types of bonds - but the old looks like it is going.

[Sachin]

As for the use of Sahayak in homes of IA, it is no secret that they do get used for doing household chores. Right from dropping children at bus stop, buying vegetables to dropping clothes at the laundry for ironing apart from “making” the uniform of the officer

I am sure many of us would certainly agree that a sahayak is neccessary for an officer. RayC and ASPuar have explained that aspect in very detail, and I would accept their arguments with all merit. But how can we justify the use of a sahayak to do household chores? Are Army wives too really busy that they cannot drop their children at the bus stop, or cant buy vegetables? Please remember these are some of the tasks which civilian ladies do as a routine matter. And many of these civilian ladies also have a career for their own. I feel this where the whole system is getting misused. As some body already noted, our society have an uncanny ability to misuse any thing which was first put up based on a genuine concern. Sahayak system seems to be one such thing.

This debate came to fore due to the changing profile of the PBOR recruits. They were comparatively more educated as compared to their predecessors and some of them objected to doing household chores.

Exactly !! But I am happy that the Army authorities are relooking at the system and also taking some corrective actions. And also would I be correct if I say that Navy and Air Force may have done away with this system precisely because their Naval Ratings and Air Men always were more educated because of the highly technical nature of their work?

if there is any complaints, he is up a gum tree!

Can you throw some more light on this part? If a sahayak goes and complains about mistreatment by an officer's family, how much of a justice can he expect? Are there incidents in which the officer was asked to do some thing about his family's behaviour? Won't this cause further problems for the sahayak who complained? There would be umpteen other ways in which this officer can s-crew the job of the sahayak.

Many households probably still have a servant of this type - but the fact is that people of this sort were products of a feudal system in which the social class of servant and master would not meet.

A couple of my relatives still live in their villages (my family moved out to a mid-size town when I was a kid), and they always had a retinue of servants/attendants/butlers etc. It was a huge house, and this strength of staff was also required. Soon times changed, the kids of these people took up education moved out of these villages. Today the biggest challenge my relatives face is to some how run the system in the old way. Yes, a retinue of servants can be still arranged, but that would cost much money, better perks and holidays, and a bit more skill in "man management". Tough life...

[Anoop]

Because a paid civilian employee generally has the ability to tell them to #$#%% off and quit if abused.

Really? And how often does this happen? Domestic help in India is treated well for the most part in civil society?

The fact is that a soldier has a greater chance of his grievance being redressed within the organization than an outsider does.

[Sachin]

Really? And how often does this happen? Domestic help in India is treated well for the most part in civil society?

At least in Kerala (the state I come from), and the present place where I live getting a servant is one of the biggest challenge faced by us. And yes, they have now reached a position to demand higher wages, and if required just quit. This I am talking from my personal experience. In a very heirerchial organisation like the Army, how much justice can be expected? Hence my request to RayC saheb to inform us of some experiences.

[rohitvats]

I am sure many of us would certainly agree that a sahayak is necessary for an officer. RayC and ASPuar have explained that aspect in very detail, and I would accept their arguments with all merit. But how can we justify the use of a sahayak to do household chores? Are Army wives too really busy that they cannot drop their children at the bus stop, or can’t buy vegetables? Please remember these are some of the tasks which civilian ladies do as a routine matter. And many of these civilian ladies also have a career for their own. I feel this where the whole system is getting misused. As some body already noted, our society have an uncanny ability to misuse any thing which was first put up based on a genuine concern. Sahayak system seems to be one such thing.

Sachin, I would not use the word misuse. The IA at the end of the day is reflection of the society and has evolved (the rate is comparatively slow for obvious reasons) along with it. While earlier the Sahayak thing was taken as granted, it is not so now. So the mindset has evolved over a period of time. As to the household chores and associated things; I do not want to use this as a justification but the situation as obtained in a cantonment is definitely not same as in civilian areas. The ladies in the civilian sector may be doing all you are mentioning (my wife does all that) but the setting is not same. I do not know about your experience of living in cantonments but way these are organized, there is typically no market in proximity from where one can fetch items for daily use. Cantonments are access controlled so you wouldn’t even have the regular thela wallas selling their wares. Most of the time things would have to be bough from the small markets that mushroom outside the cantonments or from centralized shopping centers which may/may not be near by. The lady cannot just step out of the house, take a small stroll and buy things from a market. Or even take a rickshaw or something. As against the civilian setup, the choice of where you can stay is not an option. You stay where you are told to stay.

Take a small example: Where do you or other members of this forum drop off their clothes for ironing? How do you access that place? Walk/short drive/ride/rickshaw? Well in a typical cantonment, the unit dhobi would do all this. And there is no second guessing as to how close this unit may be from the place of residence. These are small things which one will not understand unless one experiences them in person. These are result of the way life is in Cantonments (at least IA) and Sahayak is a small breather for a family.

Exactly!! But I am happy that the Army authorities are re looking at the system and also taking some corrective actions. And also would I be correct if I say that Navy and Air Force may have done away with this system precisely because their Naval Ratings and Air Men always were more educated because of the highly technical nature of their work?

I do not think IAF/IN had any such thing. Apart from the technical education, the other issue is the number of men available. And also, there is no way the culture in the IN and IAF be compared with IA. There is sea of difference.

[RayC]

Really? And how often does this happen? Domestic help in India is treated well for the most part in civil society?

At least in Kerala (the state I come from), and the present place where I live getting a servant is one of the biggest challenge faced by us. And yes, they have now reached a position to demand higher wages, and if required just quit. This I am talking from my personal experience. In a very heirerchial organisation like the Army, how much justice can be expected? Hence my request to RayC saheb to inform us of some experiences.

Where I live, servants are hard to get and during Durga Puja we have to pay a 'bonus' i.e. double the pay, notwithstanding their religion or being absent most of the times! Funtimes in Kolkata!

Justice can be expected, if indeed there is serious wrong. You see, justice is in the CO's perception. idiots are everywhere and the Army or any other organisation is not immune to them. And yet, the majority are sensitive and at least at the unit level, justice can be expected since all know each other.

Like many, there are people who perfer an easy life and they are usually sent as sahayaks by the Senior JCO. It is not that anyone is sent. It is by consent.

Why should one have to send his sahayak to the market. The Army now organises it own stall and at wholesale rates with a very small profit in the CSD complex. Officers go there and pick up the groceries and meat and fish as per their requirement. In fact, for troops and officers, there is a vehicle that goes to the family quarters and halt at a predesignated place and time and all come to buy their requirement!

Therefore, in the days of saving and scrimping, who would go to the market to buy veg at higher prices?

[ASPuar]

I am curious... we now have about a million paramilitary personnel under arms. And yet, they have proved useless in the war against naxals? How then, are they comparing themselves to the military, when after being reduced in pay, berated in the media, and ridiculed by society, the military is still the only hope against the naxals?

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... ar/496402/

[ASPuar]

For what, I am compelled to ask, have we hired:

200000 CRPF Personnel
40000 SSB Personnel
110000 CISF Personnel
350000 PAC Personnel
6000 IPS officers

When, in a time of crisis, and when even a little shooting starts, these so called armed forces run for cover, and ask the army to take care of things, because 'its their job'?

Seems like they want to enjoy all the perks of being uniformed personnel, but they want nothing to do with the job of a armed force. I havent even bothered to include regular state law and order police here, because they are supposed to be an unarmed force. But hey, look at the sirens and flashing lights and AK-47s threatening 'ordinary' motorists to keep their cars behind, when even a district SP goes to work, and anyone would think the Prime Minister of India was passing.

I also havent included the ITBP, and BSF here, because they do a difficult job, in difficult situations, and it isnt always fair to criticise them, especially in the case of the ITBP.

I guess the taxpayer will continue to pay the salaries of these lakhs of men, while the military will be compelled to deal with the naxals. Free ration and inflated ranks for CRPF "Paramilitary", and reduced rank and status for the real military. Welcome to the Republic of India, where Krishna Menonites still rule the roost, and cant wait for the final push when our nation will finally be destroyed.

[Surya]

anoop

I think we will then be parsing the word abuse - in this case I am talking of more verbal and mental. It does happen in various forms.

So rather than get into it lets see what happens in your normal civil society or even in places like an air base

There are servants and there are a few "good" servants. The good ones are in demand and if you treat them like garbage there is competiion to get them from other neighbours.

I was with my friend in one of our Eastern air bases and since one of the officers was moving it opened up an extra slot for the lady who cooked for them because she made a mean dosa etc. (andhra lady)

You should have seen the attempts of my friends wife to get her to cook for her family. (this has its own negative effects in the constricted , somewhat nasty social environment\ranking of Air force wives - but thats another story).

bottom line the civilian employee has more options - if someone wants to use them to get the glass of water from the next table - then they need to pay to find someone willing to do that.

The soldier for all the redressing options you talk of at the end of the day is in a highly regimented system (for good reasons) and does not really have the option of walking out of his job.

On a corollary I know a superbly qualified Air Force officer who was appointed as aide to the ACM.
The ACMs wife had him oversee the gardener redoing her garden. So here is Mr Top Gun, FSL etc etc overseeing the garden work for a few days. The next task was to arrange for the bday cake for the great lady


I see those as a bloody waste of time and skills.

Now there are people ( my friends in the Army and Air force) who feel this is part of the job. The job of taking the stress off the senior officer byt attending to the silly mundane things and the irritations of Mrs ACM. In the bargain you are around the ACM and get to learn how to operate at that level.


I am not convinced that this is a good bargain because Indian society has no concept of dignity of labour and the potential for misuse is high.

IMO and all that

[Sachin]

Justice can be expected, if indeed there is serious wrong. You see, justice is in the CO's perception. idiots are everywhere and the Army or any other organisation is not immune to them.

Good to hear that . My main concern was that the Colonel (and his family) commanding the unit too would have availed the services of the sahayak, and then find no wrong in the meh saheb asking the sahayak to press/iron the dresses of every one in the family, buy grocery, cook the food etc. In that case the bad practises just gets instituitionalised and a notion sets in that sahayak=servant for an officer and the family, free of cost.

Like many, there are people who perfer an easy life and they are usually sent as sahayaks by the Senior JCO. It is not that anyone is sent. It is by consent.

I had kept aside this aspect for some time, and your post is indeed a 'Ray' of hope . My friends in the Army did mention this aspect too. Some of the chaps send in as sahayaks may not be fit in any other role, and they are all too happy to do the current set of jobs given to the sahayak . In that case it becomes a win-win situation. I was more worried about a highly professional and qualified chap, not interested in this job is forced to do these kinds of tasks just because he do not have an option. I had met a young L.Nk in MLI, he had cleared his +2, completed his Dip. in Computer Applications, but then joined the Army (due to situations). I would really not like to see his talent going waste, doing laundry, gardening and looking after the officer's kids, just because there exists a system of sahayak in the Army.

[ASPuar]

Sachin sir, I also know a young Garhwali boy, serving as a constable with a DAP (Delhi Armed Police) bn. He has an MSc in Organic Chemistry. His current duty is standing at the gate of a senior IPS officials house, and mostly involves menial work (in the DP, this sort of work is not desired, because ppl on the streets collect the most cash). But being in an armed police bn, he is not anyway allowed to be a beat constt apparently.

What is to be done, if well educated young men like this are not finding jobs that suit them? It is not the fault of the Delhi Police, or the Indian Army that they are willing to take these jobs, due to whatever circumstance!

If one joins a service, one has committed to its terms. One cannot join, and then start saying that the service should change to fit ones qualifications. In that case, one should quit, and look elsewhere. It is only if somehow conditions have been altered from those which existed when one joined, that one has a case for complaint, no? As far as I know, the system of sahayaks has existed since quite a while now.

In the case of the boy I know, he is studying for higher competitive examinations, in order to do just that!

[pgbhat]

What is to be done, if well educated young men like this are not finding jobs that suit them? It is not the fault of the Delhi Police, or the Indian Army that they are willing to take these jobs, due to whatever circumstance!

x2 ... and no shame in doing that either .... while we don't need to emulate everything west does ... one thing I noticed in US was that people with graduate degrees enlist in the military as privates..... it is sad that pay for a soldier in India is pittance.

[Anabhaya]

Does the Royal Army still provide batmans for its officers? How does it work in other countries?

[RayC]

Justice can be expected, if indeed there is serious wrong. You see, justice is in the CO's perception. idiots are everywhere and the Army or any other organisation is not immune to them.

Good to hear that . My main concern was that the Colonel (and his family) commanding the unit too would have availed the services of the sahayak, and then find no wrong in the meh saheb asking the sahayak to press/iron the dresses of every one in the family, buy grocery, cook the food etc. In that case the bad practises just gets instituitionalised and a notion sets in that sahayak=servant for an officer and the family, free of cost.

Like many, there are people who perfer an easy life and they are usually sent as sahayaks by the Senior JCO. It is not that anyone is sent. It is by consent.

I had kept aside this aspect for some time, and your post is indeed a 'Ray' of hope . My friends in the Army did mention this aspect too. Some of the chaps send in as sahayaks may not be fit in any other role, and they are all too happy to do the current set of jobs given to the sahayak . In that case it becomes a win-win situation. I was more worried about a highly professional and qualified chap, not interested in this job is forced to do these kinds of tasks just because he do not have an option. I had met a young L.Nk in MLI, he had cleared his +2, completed his Dip. in Computer Applications, but then joined the Army (due to situations). I would really not like to see his talent going waste, doing laundry, gardening and looking after the officer's kids, just because there exists a system of sahayak in the Army.

[RayC]

Justice can be expected, if indeed there is serious wrong. You see, justice is in the CO's perception. idiots are everywhere and the Army or any other organisation is not immune to them.

Good to hear that . My main concern was that the Colonel (and his family) commanding the unit too would have availed the services of the sahayak, and then find no wrong in the meh saheb asking the sahayak to press/iron the dresses of every one in the family, buy grocery, cook the food etc. In that case the bad practises just gets instituitionalised and a notion sets in that sahayak=servant for an officer and the family, free of cost.

Like many, there are people who perfer an easy life and they are usually sent as sahayaks by the Senior JCO. It is not that anyone is sent. It is by consent.

I had kept aside this aspect for some time, and your post is indeed a 'Ray' of hope . My friends in the Army did mention this aspect too. Some of the chaps send in as sahayaks may not be fit in any other role, and they are all too happy to do the current set of jobs given to the sahayak . In that case it becomes a win-win situation. I was more worried about a highly professional and qualified chap, not interested in this job is forced to do these kinds of tasks just because he do not have an option. I had met a young L.Nk in MLI, he had cleared his +2, completed his Dip. in Computer Applications, but then joined the Army (due to situations). I would really not like to see his talent going waste, doing laundry, gardening and looking after the officer's kids, just because there exists a system of sahayak in the Army.[/quote]


Let's be frank.

When you organise your child's wedding, don't your friends help?

Are they your servants?

If they are, then your point is understood.

[RayC]

Justice can be expected, if indeed there is serious wrong. You see, justice is in the CO's perception. idiots are everywhere and the Army or any other organisation is not immune to them.

Good to hear that . My main concern was that the Colonel (and his family) commanding the unit too would have availed the services of the sahayak, and then find no wrong in the meh saheb asking the sahayak to press/iron the dresses of every one in the family, buy grocery, cook the food etc. In that case the bad practises just gets instituitionalised and a notion sets in that sahayak=servant for an officer and the family, free of cost.

Like many, there are people who perfer an easy life and they are usually sent as sahayaks by the Senior JCO. It is not that anyone is sent. It is by consent.

I had kept aside this aspect for some time, and your post is indeed a 'Ray' of hope . My friends in the Army did mention this aspect too. Some of the chaps send in as sahayaks may not be fit in any other role, and they are all too happy to do the current set of jobs given to the sahayak . In that case it becomes a win-win situation. I was more worried about a highly professional and qualified chap, not interested in this job is forced to do these kinds of tasks just because he do not have an option. I had met a young L.Nk in MLI, he had cleared his +2, completed his Dip. in Computer Applications, but then joined the Army (due to situations). I would really not like to see his talent going waste, doing laundry, gardening and looking after the officer's kids, just because there exists a system of sahayak in the Army.

[/quote]


Let's be frank.

When you organise your child's wedding, don't your friends help?

Are they your servants?

As far as the sahayak pressing and ironing, it is not so, since there is the dhobi and the services are paid through the mess bill!

Visit a unit for better understanding of the issue!

[RayC]

Does the Royal Army still provide batmans for its officers? How does it work in other countries?

Research and do let us know.

I am all for abolishing this, but sure would love to know how they can lool spic and span!

Better pay to have civilian servants?

Why not?

Incerease the pay of the Indian Officers and JCOs if that be the case.

Or are they shabby?

Nothing wrong. If they are shabby so can we since everything western is the craze!

Great to be a hippy! Totally bindass!

[Surya]

Some of the chaps send in as sahayaks may not be fit in any other role,

Hmm isn't that contradictory - if the guy is unfit for other duties and he being made sahayak and yet part of his job entails guarding his officer on missions??

[RayC]

Some of the chaps send in as sahayaks may not be fit in any other role,

Hmm isn't that contradictory - if the guy is unfit for other duties and he being made sahayak and yet part of his job entails guarding his officer on missions??

Unfit does not mean physically unfit. It is just that he prefers an easy life.

Look after the back of an officer does not require Superman or Batman. It requires faith and love.

My sahayak is now in the NSG and he rings me up regularly (and being retired, I can no longer influence his career, in case someone obtuse feels that he is doing so to help his career!).

Let's look at the issue. He is in the NSG. He was an useless chap when he was my shahayak?

If it was such a demeaning task, how come he still maintain contact, at his expense, as others, when I am retired and can be of no use to him.

Join the Army and realise the bonds that we have.

Words on the forum cannot explain the love and affection and equality that our equations build!

They are our sons and brothers and never servants! God forbid such a thought!

Such a thought is insulting to those who served with loyalty and diligence and for whom I would readily lay down my life if he need arises as they would for me!

[Kakkaji]

Join the Army and realise the bonds that we have.

Words on the forum cannot explain the love and affection and equality that our equations build!

They are our sons and brothers and never servants! God forbid such a thought!

Such a thought is insulting to those who served with loyalty and diligence and for whom I would readily lay down my life if he need arises as they would for me!

Hear, hear!

[ASPuar]

Contrast the strict guidelines issued by the Army on treatment of Sahayaks, with this behavious by an IPS 'SAHEB' in Uttar Pradesh. And please note that the same newspapers that drone on about sahayaks, under the careful tutelage of IAS and IPS media minders, are calling this heinous assault on a man who is subservient in service to one, a 'befitting treatment'.

Sachin Sir, what do you have to say about this? Would you rather a chap was performing officially assigned duties in the army as a sahayak? Or that he should be treated like this unfortunate constable, like such a naukar, that he is THRASHED in open, in front of everyone, for an HOUR AND A HALF!? And then a case is attempted to be registered against him?

Who treats their personnel worse? The army, which goes to the trouble of issuing proper guidelines, or the policemen, who beat their personnel?

If any armyman dared to strike his junior there would be an immediate inquiry and court martial. Think this constable will get justice?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NEWS ... 844168.cms

Cop lands in soup for draining 'it' out


Shalabh Manocha, TNN 1 August 2009, 03:19am IST

LUCKNOW: It was an emergency of sorts Raj Kumar Pandey, a police constable, faced on Friday morning. The 35-year-old responded in a manner how
hundreds in Lucknow would, under the circumstances. In dire need to empty his bladder, Pandey rushed to the nearest wall in sight. Unfortunately for him, the wall in question happened to surround the official residence of DIG Lucknow Prem Prakash, where Pandey is currently posted on escort duty over the last couple of years.

Prakash caught him literally with his pants down and then all hell broke lose. Passers by stopped to stare at the curious sight of a sheepish constable being thrashed about by a livid 'saheb' who did not stop even when Pandey fell down under the shower of blows. Not to be relented, a fuming Prakash called up the Hazratganj police and reportedly ordered the erring constable to be booked.

The demand put his subordinates in a fix. Senior staff of the thana huddled together and wrecked their brains to figure out the penalty for making water against a wall. And they all failed. The section did not figure in the Indian Penal Code (IPC) therefore it would be tricky to nab Pandey, one of them patiently explained to the 'bara saheb'.

The entire drama lasted a good hour and a half, but as they say time is a great healer. By the time the DIG realised it is quite human to err, so he settled for a lighter punishment. Constable Pandey along with two others of his accomplices —Balak Ram and Ram Gopal —who did not stop him before, midway or past it, were given the routine punishment of running around the parade ground with rifle slung on his shoulder.

In the lines a befitting treatment was meted out to Pandey. The seniors to show solidarity to their sahebs also dealt him a few blows and slaps, sources claim.

Where are all the fellows who say that "good chaps in the military should not made to be sahayaks"? Why arent they saying that IPS officials should not behave like mughal emperors and mete out public beatings to constables?

[sanjaychoudhry]

Despite abuses, Indian army ‘batmen’ to soldier on

Indian army officers are to continue to enjoy the services of “batmen”, despite a parliamentary panel saying they are being used as domestic servants in a way that is a shameful relic of colonial times.

The government has rejected the panel’s recommendation to do away with the practice of assigning officers batmen.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/inde ... soldier-on

[ASPuar]

Despite abuses, Indian army ‘batmen’ to soldier on

Indian army officers are to continue to enjoy the services of “batmen”, despite a parliamentary panel saying they are being used as domestic servants in a way that is a shameful relic of colonial times.

The government has rejected the panel’s recommendation to do away with the practice of assigning officers batmen.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/inde ... soldier-on

I want to know, isnt it a shameful relic of colonial times that a constable can be THRASHED publicly by his boss, and instead of a case against the chap guilty of assault, he is glorified in the paper, while the poor victim is being prosecuted?

[RayC]

Isn't it shameful that crores are spent guarding old and ancient politicians with whole lot of NSG personnel?

What are they afraid of? They are elected by the people who love them, so where is the danger?

They are bending backwards to please Pakistan and the terrorists (Afzal Guru et al), so where is the danger?

Chidambaram indicated that some have no danger and yet the howled blue murder!

They raise their pay and allowance and perks regularly, while they deprive the legitimate dues of others.

The audacity of the Paliametary commission or whatever to compare with Pakistan. They should realise the perks the military has in Pakistan. Give that and then talk!

Hypocrites!

[ASPuar]

Sachin, and other well meaning persons (Im not including the committed armed forces bashers here... I know they wont show their faces for a while), do you see what I mean about systems in place for armymen (Army Orders, MOD guidelines, and strict rules), but the complete lack of safety for police and other govt personnel placed in subservient positions?

[Sachin]

Sachin Sir, what do you have to say about this?

. I do not wish to compare this incident as a means to justify the sahayak system in the Army. Because I am basically against a soldier made to do stuff like pressing the clothes for an officer's family, or running errands for an officer's family. If operational requirements of an officer needs the help of a sahayak, I am fine with it . That said...

1. The incident happened in Uttar Pradesh, a state which cannot be considered for a good benchmarking of any practise . The state is still considered to be a 'jungle raj' where it is more of "might is right". The policing in this state will also be at the same level as any civil instituition there. If you remember in this state, there has been incidents policemen thrashing suspected pick-pockets (some times children) right in front of the public.

2. The constable can take legal action against the IPS officer using the judicial process in place. But for that he would require some good sense of the various laws and also the wherewithal to fight it out in the courts. But in a state like UP I do not think all this would happen. May happen in states where the constables too are well aware of their rights and duties.

do you see what I mean about systems in place for armymen (Army Orders, MOD guidelines, and strict rules)

I understand the Military's principled stand on the issue of sahayak. But how much of it gets into practise? Army camps, generally are out of the public eye so any case of mis-use is most likely not observed by common public. Will have to actually wait and watch to see if misuse of Sahayak is actually happening .

[RayC]

Sachin Sir, what do you have to say about this?

. I do not wish to compare this incident as a means to justify the sahayak system in the Army. Because I am basically against a soldier made to do stuff like pressing the clothes for an officer's family, or running errands for an officer's family. If operational requirements of an officer needs the help of a sahayak, I am fine with it . That said...

1. The incident happened in Uttar Pradesh, a state which cannot be considered for a good benchmarking of any practise . The state is still considered to be a 'jungle raj' where it is more of "might is right". The policing in this state will also be at the same level as any civil instituition there. If you remember in this state, there has been incidents policemen thrashing suspected pick-pockets (some times children) right in front of the public.

2. The constable can take legal action against the IPS officer using the judicial process in place. But for that he would require some good sense of the various laws and also the wherewithal to fight it out in the courts. But in a state like UP I do not think all this would happen. May happen in states where the constables too are well aware of their rights and duties.

do you see what I mean about systems in place for armymen (Army Orders, MOD guidelines, and strict rules)

I understand the Military's principled stand on the issue of sahayak. But how much of it gets into practise? Army camps, generally are out of the public eye so any case of mis-use is most likely not observed by common public. Will have to actually wait and watch to see if misuse of Sahayak is actually happening .

Sachin,

First of all you have to understand the army workings before you comment. Your comments will only add to the misconception that is rife.

There is a dhobi. So why should a shayak press or wash the clothes of the officer?

Further, today there are washing machines with the dhobi. All he does is shove it in the washing machine and the clothes get washed. Yes, he does press the clothes as he presses the clothes for others. He get paid separately for officers, but he has to do it gratis for jawans. In short, he earns over and above his pay. The same could be done by a civil presswallah on the road. But, should we not ensure that our own get a wee bit of money more than his pay than help the civilian presswallah?

Running errands? OK, I agree. So let us abolish the PAs to Ministers and Aides and chaprasis to every other chap. They too run errands. Game? I , too, hate it!

OK the case in UP is bad, DO you sincerely believe that there is no such case elsewhere? Have you been to a DC’s house or a DIG’s house? Have you visited any MPs house? They not only sub let but use them as unpaid servants? So, where is the moral high ground?

UP is a part of India, is it not? So, for convenience sake, we can ignore it as ‘jungle raj’?

Today’s army is not the meek subservient army. Any misuse makes big news!

[ASPuar]

I dont mean to say that this incident justifies anything. I say that look. In the army, there is a system to check abuse, and proper guidelines issued. In the police, it seems that not only are these chaps used in this manner unauthorisedly, but they are ill treated above and beyond your (mostly heresey) ideas of washing clothes. Anyway, as Brig Ray has explained, washing clothes seems quite unlikely since there is always a unit dhobi, a civilian, employed for the task.

Some points.

1. To say that IPS thrashing his flunkeys in UP is OK, and only to be expected, is reprehensible.

2. To say that we dont know what is happening in army establishments, so let us assume its all bad, is slander.

3. Is the testimony of an experienced, and seasoned officer like some of the administrators on this board to the contrary insufficient proof for your ideas of fairness?

4. Again, I would say the the Armys principled stand is the ONLY one seen across government services, providing protection to its men. The rest, behave much like DIG 'sahab' has managed to.

[Drevin]

Does the Indian army use computer guided parachutes in remote areas where the terrain is very inhospitable like Siachin, Himalayas ..... where you need precision drops for rations, fuel etc...

I know there are trained professional mountain climbers in the army but it would seem that they would also be hard pressed to recover packages dropped over a large area of difficult mountainous terrain.

Computer guided parachutes

[Surya]

I really do not see the point of countering Sachins arguments by bringing other wrongs committed by IAS or IPS etc

Those who are not in favour of the sahayak system are also not in favour of the raj mentality in the IAS , IPS etc.

After all the public still considers the IA the most trusted org in the country. and yes the Army is the most principled - no doubt about it.




The system and the media - presently may not shine a light on that does not mean Sachin's arguments about the army are invalid.

The point is tha the potential for misuse exists and happens. Every other army seems to be doing fine without the system so you are going to be hardpressed to argue this is a necessity.


So yes come down hard on the IAS, IPS - rally - demand they also stop their misuse \abuse - but to use this to counter the arguments on the sahayak system is silly