INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

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vina
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by vina »

It should be a DC motor then.

Commutators are no longer needed. Electronically controlled switching have replaced them in advanced electromechanical systems. You sense the shaft angle, and the actual flux drain, and switch the polarity right at the zero crossing point.

Simple and efficient onlee.
Ah.. The magic of Power Electronics. Very TFTA , neat zimble and efficient onree, that brushless DC motor stuff.

Coming back to the Siemens motor aka PermaSyn .. ( I guess a Germanic engineering nerdy take in catchy marketing, short form of Permanent magnet Synchronous motor). Now if it is on 150 submarines as the link claims, it is highly probable, that the latest offering has the TFTA power electronic based switching and the commutators and brushes are done with in the motor upgrade. I am sure the older motors in earlier gen subs have the commutators and brushes.

But I guess you will have to look at the boats from Les Frogs for the cutting edge here in terms of power electronics and propulsion motor control. I am willing to bet Altsom would have been the main culprit behind the motor and Les Frogs would have leveraged a lot of the power electronics expertise from the TGV trains and other high power applications and their cruise liners (which now usually go for the all electric power station concept because of flexibility) for their subs.

Wonder what the propulsion motors of the Scorpenes are like. I am willing to bet a polyphase (most probably 3) asynchronous induction motor with TFTA power electronics controls and inverter circuitry for the DC to AC conversion and speed control.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Charu »

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Charu »

Scorpene submarines and DCNS built other subs use electric propulsion motor and systems from CONVERTEAM

http://www.converteam.com
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by SanjibGhosh »

'Second indigenous nuke sub will be ready soon'

http://india-forums.com/news/article.asp?id=193205
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by negi »

A synchronous motor has to be fed with an AC current into its stator windings. The Siemens Permasyn motor motor is powered by the PEM fuel cells (producing DC) but the DC is converted to AC by a pulse control inverter . The stator windings are multiphase . And the whole assembly is fresh water cooled.

AC Synchronous motors are ideally well suited for this kind of an application because:

* Low noise and vibration
* Constant speed regardless of load and voltage variation within motor rating
* Capability of synchronizing high inertia loads Uniform starting torque
* Can be wound for lower speed and greater number of poles than is practical with salient pole induction type motors
* Can be provided as multi-speed motor (you just need to change input feed frequency , inverter takes care of this)
* Will lock in at any position with respect to line voltage (i.e. no slip as compared to induction motors)

Most importantly the speed /torque characteristics of S motor is ideally suited to drive a high hp load at low RPM (exactly what a submarine needs).
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Worth posting Adm.MK Roy's interview in full...

http://www.newkerala.com/nkfullnews-1-9 ... FORM=ZZNR3
'Second indigenous nuke sub will be ready soon'

By Ritu Sharma, New Delhi, Aug 18 : India's second indigenous nuclear-powered submarine will be ready soon and will take less time from launch to induction than the first one, says a retired Indian Navy officer who was associated with the top secret project since its inception.

"The second one will be ready and will take lesser time," Vice Admiral (retd.) Mihir K. Roy told IANS in an exclusive interview.

Roy, who is now 84, was the first head of the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) that was launched in 1984 and guided it during its first four years. He has been involved in all the back room negotiations with the then Soviet Union, which assisted in the project. He is now director of think tank Society for Indian Ocean Studies.

Roy said the disintegration of the Soviet Union in 1991 delayed the ATV project, under which India aimed to initially design and construct three nuclear-powered combat submarines within the country.

The first vessel, INS Arihant, was launched into the waters July 26. When she is inducted into service after three-years of sea trials, India will became only the sixth country in the world after the US, Russia, Britain, France and China to be capable of designing and constructing nuclear-powered nuclear submarines.

"We were going fast (on the project). But there was a long delay. Then the USSR fell and there was tremendous social, political and technological changes in the country. All contracts (on the ATV project) were changed," Roy said.

"In 2004, Russia stabilised and we signed fresh contracts in dollars. Money was a problem for them because they (Russians) were short of dollars," he added.

The Soviet Union had in 1981 offered to help with the design and construction of a nuclear submarine. In 1988, it had also leased a nuclear submarine, INS Chakra, for five years to enable the Indian Navy, its first batch of officers and sailors, in operating such vessels.

The ATV project was made successful by the close partnership of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) and other public and private sector undertakings.

The project was conceptualised around the same time as those to produce an indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) and a main battle tank MBT). Both these projects have suffered heavy cost and time overruns, making the launch of INS Arihant a "historic milestone" for the Indian Navy.

"I said that I wanted to report directly to the defence minister, with no interference from secretaries and bureaucrats. It worked. Decisions were made across the table," said Roy, a submariner and former chief of the Eastern Naval Command.

He noted that extra security precautions had to be taken to maintain the secrecy of the project to prevent triggering an arms race on the subcontinent.

"We did not even have a name plate (outside the office). Nobody in my family, not even my wife, was aware what I was doing. On July 26 (when INS Arihatn was launched) my

grandchildren said: 'You never told us!' " Roy said.

"I got the dry docks (at the Visakhapatnam Ship Building Centre) covered; otherwise satellites would have spotted the vessel and taken pictures," Roy reminisced, adding: "I also got the dry docks lengthened."
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Charu »

Hon'ble Sir(s),

The million $ rather the crore rupees question I have is:

Who in India is manufacturing such electric drive for INS Arihant's propulsion assuming that Arihant will have an electric propulsion??? Or is this still a foreign component from Gemany, France or potentially Japan ??
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by pankajs »

I got the dry docks (at the Visakhapatnam Ship Building Centre) covered; otherwise satellites would have spotted the vessel and taken pictures," Roy reminisced, adding: "I also got the dry docks lengthened."
Covered with what? A permanent concrete roof or a steel shed or water proof plastic sheets or our traditional samiana? Forgive my ignorance.
Say what about those SAR based satellites out there? Seems some countries would have the picture of the beast at least in some form.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by vina »

Charu wrote:Who in India is manufacturing such electric drive for INS Arihant's propulsion assuming that Arihant will have an electric propulsion???
No one. Why ?. Because the Arihant has a mechanical drive. Face it, behind all that fancy schmanzy stuff, the direct mechancial connection is more efficient, reliable and has higher performance. The electrical drive has no particular advantage in a nuke boat.

2nd part , who can make it in India. Why a host of people can. BHEL can, the guys who make the railway traction engines can, maybe Kirloskar, Crompton, not to mention the Indian ops of Alstom , Siemens, ABB. Nearly every component can be made here. The only thing that will need to be imported are probably the Power Electronics devices .
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

IR WAP-n locos use ABB and Hitachi motors iirc from ir fan club prowls. but the kind needed
to drive a single shaft 6500t sub and its giant prop would be the big brother of such motors.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by harbans »

Turbo Electric propulsion is not high tech in that sense. To get a sense of the circuit used in nuclear subs heres a good site on a pressurized water reactor Turbo electric system in an nuclear sub :

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship ... actor.html
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by aditp »

^^^ Mikrotek makes very good power invertors. even on industrial scale :D
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by negi »

Ah.. The magic of Power Electronics. Very TFTA , neat zimble and efficient onree, that brushless DC motor stuff.

Saar it is not due to power electronics imho but only possible due to usage of permanent magnet instead of EM as an armature , once you have an armature which produces its own MF without need for external power source ; one does not need physical contact with electrical leads even during constant rotation hence no need for commutator and the brushes.

The rest of the things remain unchanged as the stator is stationary so there is no need for commutator or slip rings for electrical contact.

Also a DC motor is a high RPM motor with very poor speed torque characteristics (its a linear decay ). Ac synchronous motor in contrast is a constant speed motor i.e. irrespective of the increase in load it will rotate at a constant speed until the load reaches a point where the rotor falls out of synch.The speed of operation however can be controlled by the changing the frequency of the feed supply.


Amrikhan's new dd-21 programme (Zumwalt class) and even future block upgrades of Virginia class are gonna employ the electric motors for propulsion.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by vina »

Turbo Electric propulsion is not high tech in that sense. To get a sense of the circuit used in nuclear subs heres a good site on a pressurized water reactor Turbo electric system in an nuclear sub :

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship ... actor.html
What you posted is the conventional, directly coupling turbine to shaft mechanical linkage thing. The electric motor you see in the figure is the back up thing to turn the shaft from battery power as a standby.

What we mean by direct electric drive is no mechanical linkage, between turbine and prop shaft. It is like a convential submarine in that respect with a main propulsion motor, with the diff being the electricity to drive the motor is generated by a nuclear reactor driven a generator , instead of surfacing/snorkeling and using diesels to charge the batteries.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Nirmal »

vina wrote:
Turbo Electric propulsion is not high tech in that sense. To get a sense of the circuit used in nuclear subs heres a good site on a pressurized water reactor Turbo electric system in an nuclear sub :

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship ... actor.html
What you posted is the conventional, directly coupling turbine to shaft mechanical linkage thing. The electric motor you see in the figure is the back up thing to turn the shaft from battery power as a standby.

What we mean by direct electric drive is no mechanical linkage, between turbine and prop shaft. It is like a convential submarine in that respect with a main propulsion motor, with the diff being the electricity to drive the motor is generated by a nuclear reactor driven a generator , instead of surfacing/snorkeling and using diesels to charge the batteries.
'Second indigenous nuke sub will be ready soon'

By Ritu Sharma, New Delhi, Aug 18 : India's second indigenous nuclear-powered submarine will be ready soon and will take less time from launch to induction than the first one, says a retired Indian Navy officer who was associated with the top secret project since its inception.

"The second one will be ready and will take lesser time," Vice Admiral (retd.) Mihir K. Roy told IANS in an exclusive interview.

Roy, who is now 84, was the first head of the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) that was launched in 1984 and guided it during its first four years. He has been involved in all the back room negotiations with the then Soviet Union, which assisted in the project. He is now director of think tank Society for Indian Ocean Studies.

Roy said the disintegration of the Soviet Union in 1991 delayed the ATV project, under which India aimed to initially design and construct three nuclear-powered combat submarines within the country.

The first vessel, INS Arihant, was launched into the waters July 26. When she is inducted into service after three-years of sea trials, India will became only the sixth country in the world after the US, Russia, Britain, France and China to be capable of designing and constructing nuclear-powered nuclear submarines.

"We were going fast (on the project). But there was a long delay. Then the USSR fell and there was tremendous social, political and technological changes in the country. All contracts (on the ATV project) were changed," Roy said.

"In 2004, Russia stabilised and we signed fresh contracts in dollars. Money was a problem for them because they (Russians) were short of dollars," he added.

The Soviet Union had in 1981 offered to help with the design and construction of a nuclear submarine. In 1988, it had also leased a nuclear submarine, INS Chakra, for five years to enable the Indian Navy, its first batch of officers and sailors, in operating such vessels.

The ATV project was made successful by the close partnership of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) and other public and private sector undertakings.

The project was conceptualised around the same time as those to produce an indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) and a main battle tank MBT). Both these projects have suffered heavy cost and time overruns, making the launch of INS Arihant a "historic milestone" for the Indian Navy.

"I said that I wanted to report directly to the defence minister, with no interference from secretaries and bureaucrats. It worked. Decisions were made across the table," said Roy, a submariner and former chief of the Eastern Naval Command.

He noted that extra security precautions had to be taken to maintain the secrecy of the project to prevent triggering an arms race on the subcontinent.

"We did not even have a name plate (outside the office). Nobody in my family, not even my wife, was aware what I was doing. On July 26 (when INS Arihatn was launched) my

grandchildren said: 'You never told us!' " Roy said.

"I got the dry docks (at the Visakhapatnam Ship Building Centre) covered; otherwise satellites would have spotted the vessel and taken pictures," Roy reminisced, adding: "I also got the dry docks lengthened."
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by nachiket »

Nirmal, can you post the link please?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Charu »

''Because the Arihant has a mechanical drive. Face it, behind all that fancy schmanzy stuff, the direct mechancial connection is more efficient, reliable and has higher performance. The electrical drive has no particular advantage in a nuke boat. ''

Does that mean direct mechanical connection (prop shaft, reduction gears et al) gives Arihant lower accoustic signature and better throttling???
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Arun_S »

There is no end to paid yellow journalism (you guess who plays). I guess they make money by selling 2 'taka' literary work, one new literary strategic masterpiece every meal time:

Indian Nuclear Sub Running On Empty
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by harbans »

What you posted is the conventional, directly coupling turbine to shaft mechanical linkage thing. The electric motor you see in the figure is the back up thing to turn the shaft from battery power as a standby.

What we mean by direct electric drive is no mechanical linkage, between turbine and prop shaft. It is like a convential submarine in that respect with a main propulsion motor, with the diff being the electricity to drive the motor is generated by a nuclear reactor driven a generator , instead of surfacing/snorkeling and using diesels to charge the batteries.


Vina Ji the site i gave also gives a pic of the direct linkage between steam turbine and shaft. If you're talking of Azipod type direct electric thats different again..i don't know if they are used in subs, though in surface ships these are becoming more common:

http://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/abb-auto ... 93184.html
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by John Snow »

With all modesty even though I was mech eng I was extremely good at Elect Engg. I completely solved the "Problems in Electrical Engineering by Parker Smith". I made some (actually substantial by tutoring Electrical 3rd year guys, to finance my hobbies like servicing radios/transistors tape recorders cricket and watching movies..., I was in second year my fav was DC machines AC machines, I still remember all those equations ....)

yes modern DC machines are commutator free.

My rank in the entrance exam gave me options to join Elec Mech or Civil or Mining, but I was told If go for electrical I will end up as line man in SEB :mrgreen:

Anyways ot
***
BHEL HAridwar makes the DC / Ac Traction motors and the chopper controls ( Thristor/ignitron/Thyrotron based controls).
I think BHEL can scale up easily, There was never a opportunity and this time there is.

“We Indians have this fascination for foreign collaboration, but at the same time yearn for Indigenous claims” Spinster
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by rajsunder »

the link for article

Second indigenous nuke sub will be ready soon

http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20090818/83 ... -be-r.html
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Gagan »

Consider this:

Image
Last edited by Gagan on 19 Aug 2009 02:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Patrick Cusack »

This is amazing - it means that the technology behind Arihant is proven and outcome was assured - I think it is very Russian in design. Wonder if the third is also there.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by KrishG »

There is another concept I am going through. Something called an SSGT. It's a sub powered by gas turbines. The deign is really interesting. The sub is designed for sustained 20 knots speed for very long distances.

http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/BMT/bmt_media/b ... aSheet.pdf
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by rajsunder »

vina wrote:
Charu wrote:Who in India is manufacturing such electric drive for INS Arihant's propulsion assuming that Arihant will have an electric propulsion???
No one. Why ?. Because the Arihant has a mechanical drive. Face it, behind all that fancy schmanzy stuff, the direct mechancial connection is more efficient, reliable and has higher performance. The electrical drive has no particular advantage in a nuke boat.

2nd part , who can make it in India. Why a host of people can. BHEL can, the guys who make the railway traction engines can, maybe Kirloskar, Crompton, not to mention the Indian ops of Alstom , Siemens, ABB. Nearly every component can be made here. The only thing that will need to be imported are probably the Power Electronics devices .
Vina, but you forgot one main point about sub building, even if the reactors energy is transferred to the propeller through a mechanical drive, there will always be a electrical system to run it using batteries when the sub has to be extra silent.
Now as an engineer, i would build two systems into one rather than build two separate systems as specified in the link provided by harbans.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Charu »

The latest in marine propulsion is magnetohydrodynamic drive or MHD propulsor

Toshiba had produced MHD propulsor for a Japanese surface ship few years back and US Navy are considering this as future prime mover.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Sanjay M »

What about the pumpjet, like on the Trident, the SeaWolf, and the Borei?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by John Snow »

Folks I have been doing some oogling research.
****
http://www.pielstick.com/navy/naval-applications.htm
NAVAL APPLICATIONS
Surface ships:
Diesel engines from 1 770 kW to 26 500 kW for
all propulsion configurations:
One engine per shaft
CODAD (Combined Diesel and Diesel)
CODOG (Combined Diesel or Gas-turbine)
CODAG (Combined Diesel and Gas-turbine)
Diesel-electric, CODLOG (Combined Diesel-electric or Gas Turbine) or CODLAG (Combined Diesel-electric and Gas-turbine),
with:
FPP (Fixed Pitch Propeller)
CPP (Controllable Pitch Propeller)
Water-jets
Frigate "La Fayette" (French Navy)

Gensets from 1 500 kW
For: patrol boats, OPV's, corvettes, frigates, landing ships, helicopter-carriers, replenishment tankers, auxiliary ships, ice-breakers, salvage ships, training ships, etc.

Submarines:
Gensets from 480 kW to 1 330 kW for propulsion or emergency (SSN/SSBN)
and look at this
Kirloskar-Pielstick — Kirloskar Oil Engines Ltd. — India
Image
thats Kirloskar torque convertor

http://kirloskarapps.kirloskar.com/kirl ... 15.html?M2


From BHEL product portfolio
AC squirrel cage, slipring, synchronous motors, industrial alternators and DC machines are manufactured as per range summarized below. Special-purpose machines are manufactured on request.

AC Machines for Safe Area Application
Induction Motors
Squirrel cage 150 to 35000 kW
Synchronous motors 200 to 15000 kW
Variable-Frequency drives 500 to 17500 kW
Synchronous motors 1000 to 17500 kW
Induction motors 200 to 35000 kW
AC Machines for Hazardous Area Application
Flame-proof motors (Ex. 'D') 150 to 1600 kW
Pressurised (Ex 'P') 150 kW and above
Non-sparking (Ex. 'N') Variable Speed
Non-sparking (Ex. 'N')
Increased safety (Ex 'E') Synchronous and Squirrel Cage
DC Machines
Mill Duty 3.5 to 186 kW
Medium/Large 100 to 12000 kW
Industrial Alternators
Steam turbine, gas turbine and diesel engine driven from 2000 kVA to 60,000 kVA..
Voltage & Enclosure
Voltage AC - 415 V to 13800 V
Enclosure SPDP, CACW, CACA
this just scratching the surface, the infrastructure is all there both in private sector and public sector, we can make them all in India
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by shiv »

John Snow wrote: My rank in the entrance exam gave me options to join Elec Mech or Civil or Mining, but I was told If go for electrical I will end up as line man in SEB :mrgreen:
Ah the 1960s to 70s club. :D
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by John Snow »

MHD is like cold fusion that has been talked since 1970s... :mrgreen:

*****
Vina garu>> here is link which talks about overhead voltages, AC/DC (not heavy metal) for railway traction. Notice India uses 25Kv ( I had mentione 110 Kv incorrectly) 50Hz single phase which then is converted to three phase using solid state inverters...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cu ... z_overhead
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by John Snow »

Read here
http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/propulsion.html

We have everything in the country a little leadership a little commitment, a little we too can do it, a little management to tie it all up. We can launch two subs a year. We have the private and public sector capacity to support, ABOVE ALL there is money to be made by everybody, including Armed forces brass heading the supplies and prourement. Keep the money with our people in the country instead fo permenantly fixed deposits with Swiss or Mr. Q in Isle of Man banks please please...

Crompton Greaves
http://www.cglonline.com/pdfs/international/e3.pdf
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by svinayak »

BELOW: Atlantic Ocean (May 5, 2005) - A member of SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team Two (SDVT-2) prepares to launch one of the team's SEAL Delivery Vehicles (SDV) from the back of the Los Angeles-class attack submarine USS Philadelphia (SSN 690) on a training exercise. The SDVs are used to carry Navy SEALs from a submerged submarine to enemy targets while staying underwater and undetected. SDVT-2 is stationed at Naval Amphibious Base Little Creek, Va., and conducts operations throughout the Atlantic, Southern, and European command areas of responsibility. U.S. Navy photo by Chief Photographer's Mate Andrew McKaskle.

http://www.ussphiladelphiassn690.com/
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by vina »

I will end up as line man in SEB :mrgreen:
Snow Garu. Atleast your fate was better. My parents simply had no hope for me. My dad thought I would make a good typist /stenographer and the best that can happen to me is to end up as a clerk in a PSU bank like SBI .

I took typing classes right after my 10th exam , banging out the required number of words per minute in a old Godrej /Halda type writer :mrgreen: . Dad wanted to put me in short hand classes, but I revolted. I think that I managed to pull my socks up after my 10th std and do a desperate rear guard to save my Musharraf. If I hadn't been able to get into the Madrassa, you probably would have seen me sitting behind the teller counter in a bank or be a part of the typist pool ( a endangered species I would think) in some govt office :(( !
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by vasu_ray »

These are nice digs,
Nirmal wrote:The project was conceptualised around the same time as those to produce an indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) and a main battle tank MBT). Both these projects have suffered heavy cost and time overruns, making the launch of INS Arihant a "historic milestone" for the Indian Navy.

"I said that I wanted to report directly to the defence minister, with no interference from secretaries and bureaucrats. It worked. Decisions were made across the table," said Roy, a submariner and former chief of the Eastern Naval Command.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Charu »

Snow Sir,

Its encouraging to note that BHEL, Kirloskar, Crompton Greaves etc have the ability to produce electric propulsion motors for our nuclear and conventional submarines meeting all the parameters and operational characteristics of the Navy. I presume the induustrial R&D in India especially of these above stated companies are engaged in cutting edge research on material science, high-temperature superconductor technology etc. :D
John Snow
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by John Snow »

vina garu>> when I started dabbling in electronic circuits making and fixing transistor radios etc and playing lot of cricket my scores in middle school into intermediate my scores started do NFI down hill skining, my relatives ( as my dad was in Kirkee) my uncle (fathers sisters husban who was CWE in Mudfort Sec bad) wrote to my dad your son will become a excellent radio mechanic or a fitter send him to ITI!
Thats when I thought better go like Lt kalia than die a wimp....
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Charu »

Interesting blog:
Last edited by Gerard on 19 Aug 2009 20:11, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: haram link
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by PratikDas »

Charu wrote:Interesting blog:
Haraam link alert
Last edited by Gerard on 19 Aug 2009 20:14, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: haram quoting of haram link
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