Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
BijuShet
BRFite
Posts: 1587
Joined: 09 Jan 2008 23:14
Location: under my tin foil hat

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by BijuShet »

Another one emerges from the woodwork pushing the Aman ki Asha propoganda.
From The News - The stars are aligned
Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - Rakesh Mani
It's one of the most remarkable campaigns the subcontinent has seen: a joint peace initiative run by the Times of India, India's most powerful media empire, and the Jang group, Pakistan's most influential media group. Their joint 'Aman ki Asha' (Hope for Peace) initiative looks to develop a stronger Track II channel in the diplomatic and cultural relations between India and Pakistan.

The Urdu language Jang newspaper's involvement is relevant, and crucial, although the Jang Group's English language The News is also involved. However, it is probably the vernacular Jang reader who needs to be made more open to establishing a rapport with India. The case of the linguistic divide is less pronounced in India. Readers of the English press and vernacular press often share similar opinions on relations with Pakistan.
...

More info on this Rakesh Mani here

A small selection of articles by Rakesh Mani posted on Chowk.com here
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Sanku »

Nihat wrote:I think MMS and GoI is doing part 1 quite alright - Using the economy to Securing a better global position for India.
Strongly disagree with Parts 1 and 2. MMS has given us 5+ years of shri Shivraj Patil, EUMA a bail to US on nuclear accidents etc etc.

Anyway this is not relevant to the thread at hand so I will desist.

The point that I am trying to make here for this thread (some one made it in another thread too) is that Governance is related, rampant price hike, Naxal situation out of control, setting a fire in Hyderabad where none existed and Terror are ALL governance issues.

You can not expect a spectacular performance in one aspect and a massive failures in others.

Handling TSP is a part of Governance of India, it is not a external issue, there is no reason to give a greater leeway to GoI on dealing with terror from Pak than we would in their handling of a serial killer.

--------------

Basically I am saying that "0h it comes from Pak, we are constrained" is not an acceptable response for GoI -- and this reflects on overall governance and has links on the effectiveness of the overall GoI, if GoI is effective we WILL see better response on this issue as well as other issue, if we see this one issue going out of whack it can be safely assumed and checked that other issues are going out of whack.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by svinayak »

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... t1965a.jpg

Check this from the 1965 war. Same things are still going on in India and US is exploiting it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965
SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16271
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by SwamyG »

So if the general consensus is that Unkil asked Desh to do something for TSP; then based on how ToI has been going about its Aman ki Asha business one can not help from suspecting that ToI is in the pocket of Unkil or GoI. In all these natak baazi, ToI is out of the closet.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by ramana »


We are sure she is not imagining things? DDM have been known to have an inflated sense of importance.

And the unknown jihadi from Waziristan has her phone number and knows The Hindu is the conduit for India?

Most likely its red herring from an ISI operative with phone routed thru that area code for such uses as passing bad info to gullible journos.
Karna_A
BRFite
Posts: 432
Joined: 28 Dec 2008 03:35

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Karna_A »

Gerard wrote:Was the proposal for the Pakistani government to administer or was it for PoK people to join with the J+K state politicians and administer local government?
This would imply elections in PoK and the dismantling of the terror infrastructure. I can't see Pakistan doing that. That would be acknowledging that jihad has failed and forever accepting a larger India. With their fetish for 'parity' allow such a thing? Could 'Pakistan' survive such a thing?
India would never agree to TSP administration of Kashmir.
What may be agreed upon is as follows which is a 30 year plan:
There is not much in this which could harm India if its followed in letter and spirit, but then which treaty has ever been followed in letter and spirit by TSP.


Initially 100% of employees of Kashmir and POK are from respective sides. Each year the percentage of cross border employees would be increased by 1%(max 30%) based on mutual guarantees of IWT and no terrorism. In case of breach of IWT or terrorism, it would revert to previous years percentage.
(a) 70% of civilian employees of Kashmir to be from Indian Kashmir, 30% from POK. Same with elected officials on both sides.
(b) Reciprocal in POK where 30% are from Kashmir and 70% from POK.
(c) Salary & benefits of respective employees to be paid by respective governments.
(d) TSP tourists allowed in valley in same percentage 70/30, and Indian tourists allowed in POK at 30/70.
(e) Defence, foreign policy to be of respective governments.
(f) The above will apply to Valley, POK, Doda etc. but not to Jammu, Ladakh or Norther Areas.
Anujan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7900
Joined: 27 May 2007 03:55

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Anujan »

Article by Vikram Sood in his blog

http://soodvikram.blogspot.com/2010/02/ ... l?spref=tw

There is nothing in it that a careful follower of this dhaaga wont know. But it is put up coherently, cogently and thoughtfully - succinct overview of Pakistan, myths relating to fundamentalism, the role of army, whether Jinnah was "moderate" ityadi. Some gems:

Some like Rubina Saigol (The News February 21, 2009) have even questioned Jinnah’s intentions about secularism and modernism. Her essay ‘Myths versus Facts About Fundamentalism’ is to dismantle eight of the most common myths about Muslim fundamentalism and extremism ‘(in our part of the world) by juxtaposing such myths against observable facts.’ One of the myths she dismantles is the belief or the claim that fundamentalism is the result of mental and moral backwardness, attitudes religion and beliefs. Her argument is that ‘Fundamentalism is about geopolitics, involving power, money, and control over territory, people and resources.....

One aspect though that bears repetition is because it is quite often overlooked or at least not fully appreciated. This is that all jihadis were not the products of the NWFP/Balochistan madrassas. On the contrary, many of the jihadis were students at the mainstream schools of Pakistan where too the syllabus was one of distortion of history fed on a diet of hatred for the non- Muslim.
In fact, I wish to request the mods to link it off the first post so people get a succinct overview.
putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4727
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by putnanja »

Fasten your seatbelts - K. Subrahmanyam
That explains why Chidambaram says there was no intelligence failure. This attack was expected and it is logical to expect more LeT attacks — and probably more severe attacks, sufficiently provocative to create immense pressure on India to retaliate with a military response. Pakistan desperately wants Indian jingoistic rhetoric: talk of military response, our strategists holding forth on a “cold start” and our media screaming for retaliation. They may not need an actual military response; even our politics and media, if sufficiently jingoistic, will be adequate for Pakistan to move their troops away from their western border to the east, allow safe haven to the Afghan Taliban and blame it all on the “Indian threat”.
...
India should not walk into the Pakistani trap. Can the government of India afford to do so?
So, KS basically asking GoI to sit tight while the US cleans up the taliban on the afghan border, without giving an excuse for the paki army to pull back from troops from their western border.

While his logic appears good, his argument is based on the fact that the paki army is fighting the taliban on the afghan border. You can take a horse to the water but cannot make it drink. the paki army might be in FATA, but it is not going to kill the taliban. Knowing that the americans will be out of the area in a year or two, why will they kill their potential successors in afghanistan?

So there goes the US strategy, except that Indians absorb the sucker punch for the US. So what does India get for their sacrifice?? The US is anyway going to negotiate with the "good taliban" and leave Afghanistan, and pakis will get back their strategic depth. It is a net loss for India whichever way you look at it. Sorry Mr KS, I am not buying your argument. It appears to be an argument made by the americans sadly!

And finally, Mr KS need not fear. The GoI had already decided a few months back to carry on the peace process irrespective of terror attacks, so that they can stop it later on. Unfortunately, they couldn't do it this time around as the talks haven't even started. Well, all for the good I guess ( for americans)!!
shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7100
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by shyamd »

Taliban confirm Mullah Baradar captured

LWJ update just released. The Taleban commanders (aka ISI wallahs) say he was arrested by coalition forces in the current operation in Afghanistan. Makes sense, afterall TSP, Taleban say they arent in Quetta.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by shiv »

CRamS wrote: You have to define what "victory" means. Has India been able to ignore TSP as it should like a one would ignore a disase infested pig? No it has not. And even if not in substance, equal equal is there in psychological terms. The fact that we are sitting down and talking with them begging from stopping terror is a huge victory for them. TSP views its struggle over India as a long-drawn out affir, and Inshah Allah, in their minds, they will preial one day, i.e., the green crescent over the red fort.
I am coming around to the view that there is no "us" and "them" except in the viewpoints expressed here and by some misguided elements outside BRF. Paquistanis and Paquistan need to be accepted as part of India, like renegade Maoists or a recalcitrant political leader who is whipping up hate towards other Indians such as Biharis. Paquistanis cannot be punished by overwhelming force any more than the Shiv Sena or Maoists. That land is one day going to come under the control of a political dispensation that resembles greater India. Only militant Islam is stopping that from happening - trying to relive its glory days of 1947.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by NRao »

There are three players in this game: The US (NATO got dragged in), TSP and India.

I thinking the time has come to engage Pakistan with the express understanding that they will slide into oblivion IF India plays her cards right.

With that in mind the India strategy has to be ensure that the US KNOWS that failure in Af-Pak will be a US failure in all respects. And, that is why I would support:
KS wrote: In other words, if the Americans do not win this campaign in Afghanistan they can forget about not only being a preeminent economic and technological power but a preeminent military power. They will have been defeated not by the Taliban — but by the wily ISI, that they themselves trained in the 1980s. Will that be acceptable? The Pakistanis will have reversed the results of the 2001 campaign, restored the Taliban to Afghanistan, sustained the LeT threats to the US homeland and perhaps kept alive Osama bin Laden and Al-Zawahiri.
India has to bite the bullet or get far better at HUMINT. Indian INT is way below standard for this battlefield.

Also, I find it laughable (in a good way - if that is possible) that India relies on foreign dignitaries that state "India will be attacked ....". Who cannot say that? But, I guess it is better than saying "The sun will rise from the East." (Recall the US statistician that, after hours of calculations, stated "The Viet Cong are more likely to attack at night." Wise.)

Indian armed forces are upgrading. The civilian sector needs to ramp up in the next year or less. (They are good, but not good enough.)

So:
a) Make sure that the US is engaged meaningfully and engage Pakistan only to keep the game going, and
b) INT. Get it up to specs.
Rangudu
BRFite
Posts: 1751
Joined: 03 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Rangudu »

It looks like there are wheels inside the wheels with the Barader arrest.

Barader is a Popalzai and apparently Karzai has been using his tribal links to peel away Barader from Omar and the ISI. Apparently TSPA has been suspicious that the Americans and Karzai were trying to cut out TSP from the talks and hence this move.

Basically, it is now likely that TSP has actually destroyed any hopes for a negotiated exit without it getting the prime role. Plus it gets credit for something.

Tactically brilliant, perhaps?
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by shiv »

Well blow me down. I was taught that India must react like the US. Two buildings. Two countries. Is that wrong then?
a) Make sure that the US is engaged meaningfully and engage Pakistan only to keep the game going, and
b) INT. Get it up to specs.
The real problem for those of us living in India is that I have to advise my children to avoid malls, movie theaters, markets and crowded places in certain areas at certain times. No matter how vigilant intel is, there has to be ground level vigilance of citizens. Ironically hat was present in the Pune bakery but was thwarted.
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6589
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by sanjaykumar »

In other words, if the Americans do not win this campaign in Afghanistan they can forget about not only being a preeminent economic and technological power but a preeminent military power. They will have been defeated not by the Taliban — but by the wily ISI, that they themselves trained in the 1980s.



Does this mean that India holds the key to American success in the appropriately named Marjah? Will India extract its pound of flesh?
anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9203
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by anupmisra »

A feel of Pakistan in Jaipur's air
And, the love fest continues (although it may be one sided). Posting in full because I dont think you would want to miss the nuanaced self adulations.
Jayapur ki fizaon mein Pakistan ki khushbu…” It seems like just a few days ago that you could have a feel of Pakistan here in Jaipur. And with it, the sincere deep affection the visitors brought over from across the border. The hugs they exchanged with us were only one demonstration of the love Indians and Pakistanis so obviously feel for each other. I mused: why should events such as the Jaipur Literary Festival be now-and-then occasions?

This gathering in the Pink City has been taking place for five years now. In this short period it has not only gained popularity across the borders, it has developed a certain status of its own. In terms of this festival, across the borders doesn't mean Pakistan alone. While Asma Jahangir and Ali Sethi arrived from Pakistan to attend it, Shajiya Umar represented Bangladesh. From Sri Lanka came Booker Prize-nominee Ramesh Gunasekhara. The main Indian representative was former Indian Foreign Secretary Shyam Saran. Seating in the large lawn at Heritage Hotel was almost full to capacity.

It's such a misfortune that in all our countries decisions taken by a few affect the lives of millions upon millions of people, even though, as a rule, the decisions do not represent the wishes of the peoples of the subcontinent. Perhaps the effect would be different if, as Ramesh Gunasekhara said, the governments were more focused on ways to develop friendship and harmony in the region than the resolution of what the politicians consider fundamental problems.

Of course, since Pakistan is India's special neighbour, most discussions and conversations at the festival were focused on it and-whether you wanted or not, directly or indirectly-unfailingly returned to the subject of Pakistan.

Asma Jahangir appeared to sum up the feelings of Indians and Pakistanis with her wistful remark: if only there were the possibility of finding something to allay the pain both peoples share because of the similarity of their circumstances.
:roll:
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6589
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by sanjaykumar »

Man I would rather read Hamid Zaid or Hamid Gulbadan Gul.
shaardula
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2591
Joined: 17 Apr 2006 20:02

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by shaardula »

shiv wrote:
CRamS wrote: You have to define what "victory" means. Has India been able to ignore TSP as it should like a one would ignore a disase infested pig? No it has not. And even if not in substance, equal equal is there in psychological terms. The fact that we are sitting down and talking with them begging from stopping terror is a huge victory for them. TSP views its struggle over India as a long-drawn out affir, and Inshah Allah, in their minds, they will preial one day, i.e., the green crescent over the red fort.
I am coming around to the view that there is no "us" and "them" except in the viewpoints expressed here and by some misguided elements outside BRF. Paquistanis and Paquistan need to be accepted as part of India, like renegade Maoists or a recalcitrant political leader who is whipping up hate towards other Indians such as Biharis. Paquistanis cannot be punished by overwhelming force any more than the Shiv Sena or Maoists. That land is one day going to come under the control of a political dispensation that resembles greater India. Only militant Islam is stopping that from happening - trying to relive its glory days of 1947.
but then, what accompanies the natural hegemony of india is the natural responsibility. the two are dual. anything that collapses in SA, guess where does it fall? guess where do such collapsing entities lean on, and guess who bears the burden? it is one thing theorize and postulate how the ultimate goal is to revert to akbar's times, quite another to bear the burden on burgeoning populations. i think both BD and TSP have calculated as much. The sheer numbers involved means you have to be prepared to be very ugly to really solve the problem. Which ofcourse India is not prepared to be. watch the very video in which hamid gul theatens our backyard - idea is tsp is going to hold our decency to our ransom. - this something you yourselves gamed. have you forgotten your own lesson?
Last edited by shaardula on 17 Feb 2010 09:00, edited 1 time in total.
anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9203
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by anupmisra »

arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by arun »

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan seeks to limit the damage to Honour and Dignity brought on by the disclosure of news that they permitted the CIA to carry out an operation, albeit jointly, on their soil.

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan when it comes to permitting its sovereignty to be violated time and again by allowing other nations a free run of its territory is up there with the most servile of nations.

Interior Minister Rehman Malik:
“If the New York Times gives information, it is not a divine truth, it can be wrong. We have joint intelligence sharing and no joint investigation, nor joint raids,”
“We are a sovereign state and hence will not allow anybody to come and do any operation. And we will not allow that. So this (report) is propaganda,”
From Dawn:

Mullah Baradar arrest reports propaganda: Rehman Malik
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by shiv »

shaardula wrote: but then, what accompanies the natural hegemony of india is the natural responsibility. the two are dual. anything that collapses in SA, guess where does it fall? guess where do such collapsing entities lean on, and guess who bears the burden? it is one thing theorize and postulate how the ultimate goal is to revert to akbar's times, quite another to bear the burden on burgeoning populations. i think both BD and TSP have calculated as much. The sheer numbers involved means you have to be prepared to be very ugly to really solve the problem. Which ofcourse India is not prepared to be.
Isn't India already bearing the burden of collapse of entities in Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Paquistan?

"Not willing to bear a burden" has no connection with the fact that the burden is being imposed nevertheless because we are huge and sitting right next door to "our people"
anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9203
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by anupmisra »

The long journey to India
A paki b1tching and moaning about the usual indignities a poor innocent paki has to "suffer".
The flight took only 1 hour and 25 mins but because we were Pakistani nationals, we had to form a single file at one counter where our passport particulars were manually noted down by an immigration person.
shaardula
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2591
Joined: 17 Apr 2006 20:02

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by shaardula »

anupmisra wrote:Proud LAHORI at home in BOMBAY
A paki in Mumbai!
whatever man. paens dont cut it anymore. bums no bums krachi can only aspire to be a mumbai, just having px2 limbs doesnot mean anyhting just as pak-istan can only aspire to be a hind(kuffar)-istan.
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by RamaY »

On Bhishma Pitamah's article -

If US is sharing Hadley intel with Indian intelligence agenicies, then why can't India blow up atleast few of these sleeper cells? If ISI/CIA are as close as they talk, then US must have some information on these sleeper cells. Perhaps that could be the price India can extract to absorb these attacks.

Before looking outside, India must sterelise internal security situation w.r.t TSP sleeper cells.

Can UPA govt handle the political costs associated with it?
Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Satya_anveshi »

While at potty this morning, a thought occured to me as to what explains all this bravado from Pakistan. Of course they have delivered #3 to test waters but I am thinking that the great bargain that Pak/ISI may have executed is that they will deliver Osama to Obama. That is in return of halting operations, maintaing big say in Afghanistan, making bakra of India yet again, keeping jihadi infrastructure intact and therefore J&K leverage sustained.

Obama desparately needs something and there are already voices that Obama scored higher on his terror policy than economy and healthcare. It will neatly tie in with his exit too.

When is that going to happen? my guess is before June'10.

Any takers / comments?
arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by arun »

^^^ Afghanistan is not for the US to give to anybody. Neither is it wrong for India not to take what has been “given” to somebody and return it back to the original owners, namely the Afghan's themselves :wink: .
Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Satya_anveshi »

^^^
arunji,

That is called bringing kabaddi while playing kho-kho. The name of the game in Afghanistan is Unkil whether we like it or not. Let's get real, what's the big deal to Unkil if that country goes to dogs again. He wants lowest cost of exit with greatest political mileage and that is what unfortunately being promised by chakkahs across the border. Apparently we are not showing any serious signs of our displeasure (ofcourse nothing beyond talks).
Last edited by Satya_anveshi on 17 Feb 2010 09:45, edited 1 time in total.
Vivek_A
BRFite
Posts: 593
Joined: 17 Nov 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Vivek_A »

arun wrote:^^^ Afghanistan is not for the US to give to anybody. Neither is it wrong for India not to take what has been “given” to somebody and return it back to the original owners, namely the Afghan's themselves :wink: .
amen. Afghans who , BTW , don't particularly like TSP.

This thread is going down the tubes. A lot of hand wringing, whining and a whole bunch of other things. I'm with Gerard. Exactly WHAT has the GoI given up? This is just like CRamS complaining about a US conspiracy to keep India down when India isn't willing to do everything it can do.
shaardula
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2591
Joined: 17 Apr 2006 20:02

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by shaardula »

shiv wrote:
shaardula wrote: but then, what accompanies the natural hegemony of india is the natural responsibility. the two are dual. anything that collapses in SA, guess where does it fall? guess where do such collapsing entities lean on, and guess who bears the burden? it is one thing theorize and postulate how the ultimate goal is to revert to akbar's times, quite another to bear the burden on burgeoning populations. i think both BD and TSP have calculated as much. The sheer numbers involved means you have to be prepared to be very ugly to really solve the problem. Which ofcourse India is not prepared to be.
Isn't India already bearing the burden of collapse of entities in Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Paquistan?

"Not willing to bear a burden" has no connection with the fact that the burden is being imposed nevertheless because we are huge and sitting right next door to "our people"
yes ofcourse. question is what would you do? suppose you are responsible for the people and given the scenario- lack of appetite for ugliness, what do you do? suppose kneading hands is not a solution and you need time to turn ship? suppose the wisdom is not to strike early, suppose it is wise to wait till it is really prime?
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by shiv »

shaardula wrote: yes ofcourse. question is what would you do? suppose you are responsible for the people and given the scenario- lack of appetite for ugliness, what do you do? suppose kneading hands is not a solution and you need time to turn ship? suppose the wisdom is not to strike early, suppose it is wise to wait till it is really prime?

I don't believe that you are getting through to me. What do you mean by "Lack of appetite for ugliness"?

1) Terrorism in India is ugly enough
2) India is ugly even minus terror
3) Which people am I to consider myself responsible for?
Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1513
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Pulikeshi »

The mistake is to try boil the ocean... another is to refuse to swim and keep talking! :evil:

If India has to be a regional power, then it has to take on the burden of its neighbors - is a bad argument.
Finding realistic solutions and selling it by idealistically solving the burden of the neighborhood will let India be a regional power - is a valid argument.
Defining the contours of such a solution - be it an economic union of smaller states with India in some regional alignment, etc. is above my knowledge grade.
That one cannot build a mansion in the middle of a slum and live in peace - I understand.
Not unless, the slum dwellers have a vested interest in the upkeep of the mansion.

The sobering reality of the current situation has resulted in agony/anguish or jingoist bombast on the one hand,
on the other, we see detached indifference being praised as the appropriate response.
Neither is appropriate nor warranted!

What needs to be computed is not the cost of inaction (keep talking) today versus inaction (keep talking) 5 years hence.
The need of the hour is to compute the cost of acting now versus action/inaction 5 years hence - while the talks continue if they must.
Of course in order to act, one must have a realistic end goal defined - lack of one is surely one reason for inaction!
To make this clear, folks with skill will have to quantify the cost...
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Arrest of Taliban Chief May Be Crucial for Pakistanis

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/world ... intel.html
Pakistan’s arrest of the top Taliban military commander may be a tactical victory for the United States, but it is also potentially a strategic coup for Pakistan, officials and analysts here and in Afghanistan said.

Pakistan has removed a key Taliban commander, enhanced cooperation with the United States and ensured a place for itself when parties explore a negotiated end to the Afghan war

...

Mullah Baradar had been a important contact for the Afghans for years, Afghan officials said. But Obama administration officials denied that they had made any contact with him.

Whatever the case, with the arrest of Mullah Baradar, Pakistan has effectively isolated a key link to the Taliban leadership, making itself the main channel instead.

...

The official said the American action of excluding Pakistan from talks with the Afghan Taliban was making things “difficult.”

...

Though the Obama administration has been divided on whether and how to deal with the Taliban, the Pakistani move could come at the expense of the Afghan government of Hamid Karzai and complicate reconciliation efforts his government has begun.

An American intelligence official in Europe conceded as much, while also acknowledging Mullah Baradar’s key role in the reconciliation process. “I know that our people had been in touch with people around him and were negotiating with him,” the official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the issue.

“So it doesn’t make sense why we bite the hand that is feeding us,” the official added. “And now the Taliban will have no reason to negotiate with us; they will not believe anything we will offer or say.”

...


He and other officials in Afghanistan who are familiar with the Taliban leadership said Mullah Baradar’s arrest by Pakistani intelligence, and his interrogation by Pakistani intelligence officers and American agents, could play out in two ways. Mullah Baradar might be able to persuade other Taliban to give up the fight. Or if he is perceived to be mistreated, that could end any hopes of wooing other Taliban.

“Mullah Brother can create change in the Taliban leadership, if he is used in mediation or peace-talking efforts to convince other Taliban to come over, but if he is put in jail as a prisoner, we don’t think the peace process will be productive,” said Hajji Baridad, a tribal elder from Kandahar.

The Afghan government did not react to the news of Mullah Baradar’s arrest, an indication that it was upset at Pakistan’s action. Ahmed Wali Karzai, the brother of the president, who has held indirect contacts with Mullah Baradar in the past, welcomed his arrest as serving a “death blow” to the Taliban leader, Mullah Omar.

“We value the help of Pakistani officials in helping to arrest Mullah Baradar. This is actually a positive step, and we hope they will continue this kind of contribution,” he said.

But the former Taliban ambassador to Pakistan, Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, who has led efforts on behalf of President Karzai to persuade the Taliban to negotiate an end to the war, attacked Pakistan’s action as destroying all chances of reconciliation with the rest of the Taliban leadership.

“If it’s really true, it could seriously affect negotiations and can gravely affect the peace process,” he said, speaking in Kabul, where he has resided since his release from the prison at Guantánamo Bay in Cuba several years ago. “It would destroy the fragile trust built between both sides and will not help with the peace process.”
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25382
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by SSridhar »

Sherry Rehman's uvacaha in The Hindu
New Delhi will serve the region better if it shelves the threat of suspending dialogue every time there is a terrorist strike. The good news is that templates exist for many of the smaller conflicts in the Indo-Pakistan terrain. It is Kashmir and terrorism that loom large on the road map, while the conflict in Afghanistan also provokes responses that muddy the pool. Water in South Asia is a contentious issue {Slowly, Pakistan has been adding non-existent issues to its laundry list. First, it was a separate Muslim state to escape the tyranny of the majority, then, Kashmir, Hyderabad, Junagadh, then it was treatment meted out to Muslims in India, and now it is Afghanistan and water. The intentions are very clear. Pakistan simply does not want to resolve anything with India. It simply wants to perpetuate hostility because tha is the only way it can survive. If this hostility disappears, Pakistan may not have a reason to exist and may unravel quickly} and, if left unresolved, could spark conflict between riparian states of the Indus Water system. Where do we stand on all of the above?

On terrorism, Pakistan is facing a blitz. It is a capacity deficit, not a commitment lag. The question that needs addressing is a vexing one for New Delhi. How much power does it want to concede to terrorists? Democratic governments may be weak everywhere, perhaps more so in Pakistan, but they hedge their futures against war. They seek opportunities for peace and trade, not because they are nice but because they are accountable for losses. War with India is really not an option when more people die in Pakistan from acts of terror than in war-torn Iraq or, for that matter, anywhere in the world. New Delhi should, therefore, grasp the magnitude of the war roiling Pakistan before it makes dialogue hostage to the terror that rips through the region. {Ms. Rehman and the apologists for Pakistan make it sound as though Pakistan is not responsible for all this. And, then they engage in the circular argument that because of massive terror hitting Pakistan also, India must understand and be generous. Why do we care Madam about terrorism that you face ? That's for you to tackle. What we care is when terrorism is exported from you to us, we will still hold you responsible.It is difficult sometimes to even challenge the patently absurd. That's the case here.} This is not to say composite dialogue is some metric for success. Far from it.

In fact, in the last lap, it looked like an instrument that would lose all shine if not shot in the arm with some political will. After the fourth round of composite dialogue sorted out the fine print on many well-worn CBMs, the inertia of leaden intentions dragged movement at its usual pace. Then Mumbai, or 26/11, happened. Suddenly, the state became hostage to terrorists and their goals. {Oh, yes. Mumbai was such an insignificant issue both in terms of audacity and number of victims, that India must have continued with talks as though nothing happened} The dialogue screeched to a halt, and the power of setting the agenda landed in the terrorists’ laps. This is what has to change for all countries of the region to combat terrorism together. {No, that should not change. What should change is that Pakistan must act against terrorists. Pakistan cannot simply escape responsibility by saying it has a capacity deficit. Why is it unable and unwilling to rein in the ISI which the whole world accuses of collaborating with the terrorists? Why are the ISI and the Army not under effective civilian control ? That is a change that has to happen because then we can hold the Pakistani Government responsible for state actors colluding with non-state actors or even for failing to stop terrorism} We must seek to marginalise those who promote the terrorist cause. {You don't need to preach it to us Madam. This is what you and your country must do. Do not try to equate others with you}

The identity of most terrorists seeking to rob Pakistan’s citizens of their peace may not be trans-national at a glance but the sophisticated military resources and funds that drive them do not originate in Pakistan. {ISI is quite capable of supplying arms that appear to originate from elsewhere. Everybody knows how the jihadis and the Taliban generate the funds. Do not feign ignorance and try to insinuate others through your thinly veiled suggestions.} In the last two years alone, over 5,000 people have lost their lives to terrorism. Our children are afraid of going to school and our hospitals are bomb-sites. This is a war Pakistan expects its neighbours to help it with and, try as it may, Islamabad cannot possibly provide a guarantee against bombs in India if it cannot guarantee such a thing in its Military’s General Headquarters.

On this count, dialogue should lead to the construction of joint mechanisms for intelligence-sharing {No joint intelligence sharing is needed because all the intelligence should come from your side only}, best practices and optimal outcomes. Intelligence is the first line of defence in terrorist terrain, and we need to bolster our states with a formal architecture for interaction between India and Pakistan. Terrorism cannot be tackled alone, and while both states have skeletons in their unofficial closets, these and other mutual embarrassments should be discussed across the table, not on the airwaves, making our media combatants in a virtual war. Interrupting dialogue will only reify hardened positions, not create room for cooling off.

Second, structured talks on Kashmir will have to resurface, even if they inch forward. If New Delhi refuses to include Kashmir at a later stage on the formal table, the dialogue will lose momentum and political traction in Pakistan. Peace-making governments will increasingly become hostage to shrill nationalist voices {Madam, why do you assume that only Pakistan will have shrill voices and independent nations must listen to these shrill voices and concede everything they demand ?} and the project of Pax South Asia will again flounder on the rocks of gratuitous intransigence. Talks on Kashmir will also profit from a back channel, as well as the quiet inclusion of Kashmiri opinion in any dialogue for it to remain credible. Representation from Kashmir on both sides of the border is essential if the process is not to be seen as an exercise at appropriating real estate.

On Afghanistan, Pakistan is only one of the smaller elephants in the room. Islamabad’s fear of Indian encirclement will lighten if international strategies to build a nation out of that failing state succeed. Troop surges will likely tip the scales in the short run for the U.S.-NATO forces to negotiate with the Taliban but are unlikely to square the stability and governance circle on its own. International support for a broad-based ethnic mix in Afghanistan will be the only way forward if the region is not to lapse into a lawless buffer zone for extremists to build an infrastructure of dominance and pseudo-Shariah to terrorise the region with. Islamabad’s cavil about Baloch insurgents finding sanctuary in Indian consulates can be resolved if New Delhi provides transparency. {What kind of transparency ? Should India open up its embassy at Kabul and consulates at Jalalabad, Kandahar, Herat & Mazar-e-Sharif ? We demand similar transparency from the Pakistani state supporting its non-state actors in terrorism directed against India. Just remember Madam that such demands can be reciprocal. India may want to have complete access to the ISI, PA, Pakistani Government and jihadi tanzeem headquarters at Muridke, Lahore and Karachi and whatever else that we may deem fit.} Indian protests about Pakistan sponsoring terrorist attacks on its embassy can be rationally resolved through mutual exchange and dialogue.

Four, the widespread anxiety in Pakistan over Indian dams on rivers that deplete the Indus downstream can actually be discussed in a permanent dialogue mechanism that can be established between the two countries, without prejudice to the Indus Waters Treaty (IWT). The IWT has stood the test of time. But in case of violations, it depends ultimately on arbitration, which is not always to the satisfaction of either party, as was the case in Baglihar. {But, why Madam ? Your Water minister announced a great victory for Pakistan after the Baglihar verdict. he said that the Neutral Expert accepted 3 out of the 6 demands of Pakistan and he did not accept any demand from India. India certainly was not unhappy.} Pakistan is dangerously water-stressed {India is not water-endowed either. Besides, your water woes are because of your unbridled explosion of population, your wastage of water, your widespread cultivation of water-intensive crops, your low-productivity and unscientific management of water. Why do you want India to subsidize all these ? India has been far too generous already allowing you to get 142 Millio Acre Feet of water while taking for itself only 33 MAF in return. It has also never allowed water as a tool of coercive diplomacy in spite of wars, terrorism. Certainly, you cannot expect to re-negotiate the Indus Water Treaty and hope to get more water at the cost of India, can you ?}and its depleting rivers and reservoirs can benefit only from a joint working commission with India. There is scant awareness in India of Pakistan’s concerns over the potential damming of the Chenab {Are you aware, Madam, how Indians, especially Kashmiris feel about the IWT ?}. This is one conflict that can snowball as water is not always a renewable resource in South Asia. Urgent planning is needed by both countries for conservation that is both sustainable and mutually acceptable.

Shifting a state’s strategic calculus in a conflict is always a challenge. Giving dialogue a chance is critical for taking Pakistan and India out of a bilateral cold war time-warp. While the rest of the world forges ahead, meeting in Paris to re-think global nuclear stockpiles, South Asia’s two dinosaurs remain wedded to regimes that are based on mutual opacity, while their conventional arms race remains unfettered by nuclear deterrence {You are entitled to think that India's conventional arms acquisition is actually a race with Pakistan. You are also entitled to engage in an arms race with India if you think you are as big as India and do deserve an equally strong armed forces. India is not particularly bothered.} Giving China a role in a separate trilateral commission for nuclear and other talks can help ease that neuralgia.{Madam, you are dense, aren't you ?}

India’s military focus is still Pakistan, in terms of brigades and hardware. That forces the military in Pakistan to keep the troop strength balanced when all resources are needed on another, dispersed battlefield. Here, history for once, can show the way. In the 1960s, Islamabad withdrew its forces quietly when New Delhi was facing down China in Aksai Chin, as all responsible accounts from Washington will testify. (They should know, as they had asked General Ayub Khan to do that). {And they should also know that Ayub Khan refused to do that.} If one is looking for a game-changer, this will be it. For Pakistan, the potential theatre of conflict will shift where needed, and threat perceptions will slowly start shifting closer to the real ground zero at home. The trust deficit will move down multiple notches and a structured, monitored dialogue can cash in on the space afforded by such a seminal act of courage and statesmanship.{India might have gladly done that had Pakistan not been sending infiltrators under fire cover into India across LoC and IB. India would not have stationed forces in J&K had Pakistani-sponsored terrorists not been indulging in violence there for the last two decades}

The Indian leadership should strengthen its Prime Minister’s hand to fashion such a grand strategic bargain for South Asia. {Of course, all advice flows freely to india. Pakistan has absolutely no committments in anything} For, without one, dialogue will go round and round in vilified circles, becoming a low-intensity space for conflict prevention. We need to go beyond crisis management. We need to shift into conflict resolution and business momentum mode. But for all that to happen, we need to give dialogue a chance.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4269
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Rudradev »

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/world ... intel.html

Seems Rangudu is right. Karzai and the TSPA have been in a race to broker the Americans' exit deal with the Taliban and apparently, as the only widely accepted honest broker, M Baradar was both sides' choice as a lynchpin. The US has made a virtue of necessity by hailing the arrest as a major triumph (and crediting ISI for their "help" with it) but it seems some of their officials- presumably those who were negotiating on the Karzai track and close to a deal- appear to be seething. I wonder if the Pakis, by enforcing a monopoly over Baradar, won't end up scoring a self-goal though. This act certainly undermines their credibility with Taliban groups not wholly owned and operated by the ISI- and therefore reduces their value as a broker of any Taliban-US exit deal.
Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Airavat »

Air Marshal Ayaz A Khan
Pseudo-Islamist General Zia-ul-Haq detested communism and Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. He understood that with the Red Army in the west and Indian army in the east, Pakistan was in nut-cracker situation. With two enemies across the borders Pakistan’s security was seriously compromised. Pakistan helped rid Afghanistan of Soviet occupation,but the country paid the price.

After October 7, 2001 when US led Coalition forces attacked and overran Taliban resistance in Afghanistan, Pakistan was sucked into the war against terror. The bellicose threat of President George Bush “Are you with us or against us”, un-nerved General Musharraf into capitulation, with disastrous consequences for Pakistan. Pakistan has emerged as a frontline state at the center stage of the war against terror. United States of America, UK, NATO powers and even India are seeking Pakistan’s help to deal with the terrorist menace. But their support is conditional, and is motivated by selfish interests.

Pakistan is being kept away from the political, strategic, tactical and developmental plans of the US and NATO in the region. Instead India is being made a major player in Afghanistan, which is against Pakistan’s national security interests. Indian deployment military forces in Jammu and Kashmir, and along the international border, which has curtailed Pakistan’s ability to play the desired role for regional peace, especially to defeat terror.

American leaders advise Pakistan to do more, and desire Pak Army operations in North Waziristan to destroy the Haqqani network. Pakistan has declined to oblige.
Indian deployment has always been there since Independence. Why didn't this deployment deter Pakistan Army's adventures in Afghanistan under the guise of "Taliban" throughout the '80s and '90s?
CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6865
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by CRamS »

SSridhar:

The chutzpah and arrogance os Sherry is truly breathtaking. Their sense of entitlement is mind boggling. How does one negotiate with these pukes. Disgusting. I saw another video snippet on Toilet intevewing some TSP female minister who was causually dismissive of Mumbai as a "small incident" while TSP faces terrorism everyday. Bloody b#$%^&ds. Do they actually put up a show dismissing attacks like Mumbai to rub salt on India's wounds or do they actually believe their own delusions?
csharma
BRFite
Posts: 695
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by csharma »

A lot of Pakistani commentators are like Mughals in 1750s. Air of empire but practically no empire. There is a saying" From Delhi to Palam is the realm of Shah Alam". Yet they behaved like emperors.

There was a show on Dawn TV about India and Pakistan called Imagined Enemy. A lot of the commentators including Sherry Rahman, ex foreign secretary would tell what India should be doing. One would get the impression that somehow Pakistan was a very important country.
Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Satya_anveshi »

The fact that Rahman Malik is dismissing this arrest news of the birather guy as propaganda means that he fears some retribution by the Taliban / Pakban remnants (not that news is untrue). If birather guy is such a crucial guy, let's see what kind of rage taliban will display in next couple days.
Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9374
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Hari Seldon »

What are the odds unkil will quit the region in 1-2 yrs time? say by 2012?

Unkil hanging around in Afgn is doing India no favors, IMHO.

Too much to hope for, for a return to the 90s but some sembelence of that - pushtu areas under a talibanisque regime, northern areas under a russian/central asian influence and the shia areas under Iranian influence looks likely.

Theek hai. we can live with that if that gives Dilli the clarity of vision that TSP is again enemy #1.
Locked