Pakistan / Gilani can be sum up lwith famous proverb..If some BRFer is a mental health professional, he/she can comment, but I think collectively Pakistanis are:
a. delusional
b. manic depressive
and god knows what else.
-Arun
We must always question Unkil's basic assumptions. Is this really true? If so, how does one explain NSA statement earlier this year that if TSP does not take on the terrorists (of interest to US that is), then USA will. So is TSP's support really crucial?jrjrao wrote:“Pakistan is the only country that can help Afghanistan,” he said. “You cannot achieve stability in Afghanistan without Pakistan. Therefore, Pakistan is in a unique position.”
There is a reason. By attacking PRC, bloody no country will dare to attack India.Chiron wrote:
Why attack? Why not rethink about the import policies by putting a clause which addresses the terrorism based grievances from Pakistan?
This slogan has its roots in India where it became so popular that Manoj Kumar made it the title of one of his films. This film was so successful that it celebrated its golden jubilee. The communists in India were the first to realise the appeal of these "magic" words and soon West Bengal became its stronghold. It appealed to many in Pakistan because it promised the poor a means of subsistence. These three items – roti, kapra and makaan – are the basic essential needs of the poor. Politicians soon realised the importance and appeal of these words and made it a part of their party manifesto. Since it contained a promise to meet the needs of the poor, the party managed to win votes. Like so many other promises, this one saw the light of day, but days, weeks, even years, passed without its realisation. Meanwhile, the poor became poorer and the rich became richer.In Bhopal there was a cobbler known as Jagjeewan Ram. He rose to become India's deputy prime minister and minister of defence. (His daughter, Mira Kumari, is now speaker of the Lower House.) He later became so rich that when a parliamentarian asked him why his son, Suresh Bhai, had not paid Rs240-million income tax, he casually replied that Suresh might have forgotten about it. If Rs240 million means nothing, one may well image his wealth!
The old slogan of roti, kapra, makaan has been replaced by a new slogan – juta, lathi and thappar.
Shiv,shiv wrote:India has been fortunate that Pakistan has only a small middle class - but those who reach middle class status in Pakistan end up hating India. Have you looked at the poll results over the years about attitudes towards India? The poorest Pakistanis may serve as recruits for jihad but their daily concerns cannot be of defeating India - it is more of daily bread. Jihad is a luxury fuelled by the rich and the middle class.
Despite the burgeoning of TVs (from 2.5 million to 16 million) the "middle class" in Pakistan still remains small. The rise of the middle classes in Europe did not come from the agrarian economy. It came from industrialization and trade. And those wealthy middle classes wanted more and supported their political systems ending up making some very powerful colonial nations out of small European states.
Why on earth would India want to improve Pakistanis? As long as they remain poor and under the influence of the feudal classes the people will suffer and Pakistan is unlikely to see an economic revolution beyond what its 3.5 friends showers on the country. I am not saying "ignore" the poor of Pakistan. On the contrary I am saying encourage poverty and deprivation in Pakistan.
It would be absolutely stupid of India to protest (as I did in my ebook) that Pakis are screwing their poor people. The more rich Pakis screw the poor the worse Pakistan will be in the long term, and the better it will be for India.
i am saying "I salute the poor of Pakistan. May their numbers increase exponentially. May their dreams of becoming jihadis be fulfilled". Middle classes are created out of a viable economy. Why on earth would I want india to help Pakistan get viable economy when Pakis are all happy rich people with servants available for the asking? The responsibility for improving the lot of Pakistanis remains with the rich in Pakistan. India should play no role.
From the articlePrem wrote:Roti, Kapra and Makaan
Fanne Khan Bhopali
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=229505
No doubt lifted from Subhramaniya Bharathi'sAllama Iqbal (RA) who was miles away from communism in his convictions, could not resist saying:
Jis khet se dehqan ko mayassar nahin roti;
Us khet ke har khosha-e gandum ko jalado.
So, Allama Iqbal is also a photochor?Thani our manithanukku unavillai endraal
Ij Jagathinai Erithuduvom
On Monday, Shahbaz Sharif’s arguably controversial remarks pertaining to the Taliban sparing Punjab provided fodder for animated discussion in the House. On Tuesday, the parliamentary anger mills were fed by another Sharif. This time, no less than the honourable Chief Justice of Lahore High Court, Khwaja Mohammad Sharif.
His remark about “Hindus” giving money and the Muslim militants using it to carry out terrorist activities while hearing a case made the Hindu and other minority parliamentarians cry out an anguished Hi Bhagwan and led to what must be the first ever parliamentary boycott of a sitting chief justice of a high court.
We have seen a lot of strange things happen in our exceptionally colourful chequered political history but never before a walkout of such a nature. In a desperate bid to do some instant damage control, a rather unconvincing Syed Khurshid Shah wanted the House to believe that the honourable CJ must have meant to say “Hindustan and not just Hindu”, adding: “It was apparently a slip of tongue.” But Ramesh Laal wasn’t buying and making a speech before his protest walkout said that the honourable chief justice should have talked about a country but not about a religion. On hearing this one of the chaps sitting in the press gallery quipped: “If nothing else, a judge must be able to judge his own words.”
A tad harsh assessment but not altogether without merit. It wasn’t as if Muslim MNAs weren’t in a supporting mood for their minority colleagues. Rasheed Akbar Niwani of the PML-N wanted the judges to “speak through judgements and not otherwise”, while Munawar Talpur apologised to the Hindu MNAs whom he described as “as good a Pakistani as anyone else”.
...
We already have enough impure divisive fissures in our so called land of the pure, and the last thing we need is further alienation of the population that is already being treated as aliens most of the time.
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Libyan leader Moamer Qadhafi has said Nigeria should be partitioned between the Christian and Muslim communities to solve its sectarian violence problem, the JANA news agency reported on Tuesday.
He proposed that it should follow the partition model of Pakistan, which was born in 1947 after the Muslim minority of predominantly Hindu India founded their own homeland, led by Mohammed Ali Jinnah.
“The only thing that could put an end to the bloodshed ... is the appearance of another Mohammed Ali Jinnah, who established a state for the Muslims and another for the Christians,” he told African student leaders, some of them from Nigeria, the agency reported.
“The painful situation that Nigeria is enduring resembles the situation of the Indian subcontinent before 1947, at the time of the massacres between Hindus and Muslims,” Qadhafi said in the remarks on Monday.
...
From the NYT Article:Amber G. wrote:Tale of a proud Pakistani American...
She wants to offer reality check!
She Visited Karachi ..
And at once thought Pizza Hut was the best thing which happened to Pakistan!!.
But still.. she could not find a decent candy bar let alone malls ..
So she gave up on Pakistan and returned back to candy bars in Tennessee.
Then she visited Karachi again..
And saw the light.. …………… {Snipped}
Read all about it: The title, slightly changed, is more well known and apt:
Let Pakistan stew in its own juices
That solves the mystery of where the container loads of Alcohol supplied by RAW under the Pakistan-Afghanistan transit trade agreement to finance the Taliban is being consumed. Alas no confirmation yet that the RAW is similarly using Beetel Nut to corrupt the pious in the Land in the Pure:Pakistani-Americans whisper and shake their heads about the wild parties they hear go on in Pakistan today. It’s true: alcohol, although illegal, is everywhere.
Anujan wrote:This RAA and its nefarious designs, I tell you !!
http://www.onlinenews.com.pk/details.php?id=159945
Well placed sources told Online Saturday that Indian intelligence agency RAW has started providing financial assistance to Taliban through alcohol and beetle nut (chalia) under Afghan trade to use them to serve its nefarious designs
"Why are Pakistanis so prone to conspiracy theories?" a colleague at Cambridge recently asked. He was referring to recent debates about the presence of Blackwater in Pakistan. A version of this question is echoed by the liberal intelligentsia of Pakistan.
...
A common refrain amongst the liberal intelligentsia to the question of Blackwater presence in Pakistan is that we must look inwards, we must critique ourselves and our own creations such as the Taliban before we focus on Blackwater. Through framing any critique of Blackwater as conspiracy theory, there is some congruence between the stance of my colleague at Cambridge, who is largely unfamiliar with Pakistan, and the liberal intelligentsia: they both see this focus on Blackwater as an illogical act, as a hiding behind and of course, as an abdication of our own responsibility.
...
When a handful of advisers decide to sign treaties that sell our environment and our children's future to multinational companies, can we rightfully blame the many millions who were not even informed, much less consulted, about these deals? When a few generals make millions out of fighting an ambiguously defined externally mandated war, can we continue to blame the foot soldier who refuses to kill his own extended family? When some members of the ISI continue to believe that maintaining some link with the Taliban in Afghanistan will allow them 'strategic depth', can we continue to assume that the 15-year-old teenager in Swat must share responsibility and bomb his home with impunity?
Questioning the role of Blackwater and criticising those segments of our society that bear responsibility for the mess that we are in should not be considered to be mutually exclusive. It is naivety of the highest degree to assume that due to some confluence of stars the US interest in the region today coincides with that of progressive Pakistanis. But even if we assume that is the case, how precisely specific activities such as those carried out by Blackwater are to help the building of this democratic, just and secular society remains largely unclear. Are we to believe that the presence of Blackwater in Pakistan should be borne silently because it will conduce to making these ISI officers democracy-loving, committed secularists?
...
When the Islamists raise this issue their slogan resonates with the citizen who has developed a social imaginary of continued US intervention in Pakistani politics through the control and manipulation of a small group of people. Charles Taylor, the well-known political philosopher, has defined social imaginary as distinct from social theory. Social imaginary refers to how people imagine their social surroundings in ways distinct from theoretical frameworks. Social imagination is carried in stories, images and legends. It is also more widespread and thus makes possible common practices and a shared sense of legitimacy.
The Islamists tap into this shared knowledge about the US role in Pakistan politics. The Islamists may have their own agenda but to continuously define themselves in a reactive opposition to their stances would be a fatal mistake for groups that claim a stake in progressive politics. History moves in dynamic and non-linear ways. By remaining stuck in a static definition of progressive and regressive and allying themselves ever more closely with oppressive power, the liberals may ultimately render their cause irrelevant. For those of us committed to a just and democratic Pakistan, these dogmatic liberals are as great a danger as the militants.
No Rajaramji - you misunderstand. Let me say up front thoughts I have had from time to time. It is common knowledge that the police-population ratio in India is lower than what is considered ideal. I look around me in some areas and I think - how easy it would be to spray bullets into this crowd or place a bomb. It is hardly likely that I am the only person to have such thoughts.Raja Ram wrote:Rhetorical questions:
1. Indian elite not targeted yet? Diners and guests of Taj and Oberoi on that fateful day were Mango men? The German Bakery visitors in Pune were Aam aadmi?
2. Pune, Mumbai are in "disputed areas" of Kashmir?
" while the Paki says "Oh Pakistan is not unsafe. We are having fashion shows and all"X Posted. Daily Times on the same story.abhishek_sharma wrote:Of moneyed Hindus, Nawab sahib’s deadly post master & next finance minister
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=229546
On Monday, Shahbaz Sharif’s arguably controversial remarks pertaining to the Taliban sparing Punjab provided fodder for animated discussion in the House. On Tuesday, the parliamentary anger mills were fed by another Sharif. This time, no less than the honourable Chief Justice of Lahore High Court, Khwaja Mohammad Sharif.
His remark about “Hindus” giving money and the Muslim militants using it to carry out terrorist activities while hearing a case made the Hindu and other minority parliamentarians cry out an anguished Hi Bhagwan and led to what must be the first ever parliamentary boycott of a sitting chief justice of a high court. ......... {Snipped}
I'm surprised to see your reaction, thus :Fidel Guevara wrote: Besides military action, we can do what SoKo has done to NoKo...become so much more economically powerful than the Pakis, that the difference becomes glaringly obvious even to an India-hater.
If I had said "Compared to Pakistan, India should be as unattainable as the Moon", you would probably ask me if I want India to become a barren uninhabitable wasteland like the Moon. As I said, it's an ANALOGY.Sanku wrote:
Also SoKo is a client state of US, just as NoKo is a proxy of China!
Is that the level of debasement you want India to get to? Might we also start offering bases in J&K to US?
Hey why play the game by half? As it is now India appears to toe the US line without any obvious claims on bheek (handouts) from US? Lets make it really clear and say we are in your orbit, hook line and sinker?
The woman writes:Amber G. wrote: Read all about it: The title, slightly changed, is more well known and apt:
Let Pakistan stew in its own juices
Summery is already given above, I will quote the Important para:So let Paki stew in its own juices, I say!We need to accept the limits of our capabilities and understanding of realities on the ground. Unlike Iraq and Afghanistan, where the United States and other countries have a huge presence, few Americans travel to Pakistan and U.S. officials are extremely restricted in their movements.
I will not comment on whether Pakis can lead themselves out of this mess or not, but they certainly got themselves into this mess and got Afghanistan into it too.Pakistan is a different story from Afghanistan — it is far more developed and modern. Afghans may not have the ability to lead themselves out of this mess, but Pakistanis do.
The nuclear issue sells, especially when it relates to Pakistan, Iran, the Muslim World and Dr Khan - the man who defied the West and brought uranium enrichment technology to developing Pakistan! Of course, there are far bigger stories relating to proliferation, plutonium the-ft, missing fissile material stolen by Americans also working for Israel, India’s trade offs to acquire clandestine nuclear technology and fissile material - but all that is pushed aside on the backburner to remain as covert as possible. After all, revelations relating to Israel and India would drag in the big state players like the US, UK France and the then Soviet Union and now Russia. On the other hand, Iran, Pakistan and Muslims in general but Dr Khan in particular bring out the old hatreds and biases prevailing in the West and therefore create ready villains with no questions asked as to motive or even authenticity.
Back to the WP story, which basically deals with information that Dr Khan allegedly gave to a British journalist Simon Henderson who then used it himself and now has presumably sold it to the WP - thus making money on Dr Khan twice over. Dr Khan meanwhile was equally adamant in informing this scribe that he had not given any document to any foreign journalist. Instead, he accused General Musharraf of intercepting his mail to his family and passing it on to the US - but to a journalist or the government he could not say. So maybe another monetary gain was there along the way for someone? Of course, whoever gave the document, it does imply that there was such a written account which it appears arrived in the hands of the Dutch intelligence. But again, how and why did it land up with a journalist? Is this the normal practice of the Dutch government to hand over sensitive documents to journalists?
So the WP merely took Henderson at his word and never even tried to contact Dr Khan - a basic rule in reporting I would have thought
I have often felt (and occasionally stated on here) that we need to specifically target the houses and hideouts of the Pakistani elite and hit them. Make a list of the top 500 wealthy and important people in Pakistan and hit their personal assets. But I later realized that there are several problems that crop up with this approach:Altair wrote:Shiv
I have read your book on Pakistan. It is enlightening to say the least. As I understand, the RAPE along with the Army holds the idea of Pakistan.(Correct me if I am wrong). If these people are controlled the rest aka LeTs,JuDs can be starved. If the RAPE/Army can be caught by their neck we can control the nation of Pakistan.
If this is true, We can make a list of the top RAPE's/Army brass of Pakistan and define some parameters which measures their contribution to the idea of Pakistan still holding together.If we have a list of people without whom the whole idea of Pakistan holding together as a nation will be at stake, we can reduce the current half-life of Pakistan considerably.
I can understand the list will run into a couple of thousand but it is possible to list them. Just hit the RAPE's/ Army Brass economically so bad that their current way of life is untenable.(Kind of Economic Hit-Men). If hitting economically is insufficient it can be escalated to next level. Atleast we can make them stay as a single entity and still control them and perhaps avoid a war.
Just my Two paise!
Altair
Archan, and Fidel, I was merely pointing out how deeply FLAWED the ANALOGY is.Fidel Guevara wrote:Sanku, I used SoKo and NoKo as an ANALOGY, when I said :
archan wrote:It is clear to most, I suppose, that what Fidel said was to gain such a big economic edge that even the 3.5 begin to think twice before supporting their munna.
Senate body levels match-fixing charges against cricketers
Triggering yet another major controversy, a three-member sub-committee of the Senate on Sports has confirmed that one or more Pakistani cricketers and some other members of their camp were involved in match-fixing during the last tour of Australia.
Fidel,Fidel Guevara wrote:Sanku, I used SoKo and NoKo as an ANALOGY, when I said :
I'm surprised to see your reaction, thus :Fidel Guevara wrote: Besides military action, we can do what SoKo has done to NoKo...become so much more economically powerful than the Pakis, that the difference becomes glaringly obvious even to an India-hater.
If I had said "Compared to Pakistan, India should be as unattainable as the Moon", you would probably ask me if I want India to become a barren uninhabitable wasteland like the Moon. As I said, it's an ANALOGY.Sanku wrote:
Also SoKo is a client state of US, just as NoKo is a proxy of China!
Is that the level of debasement you want India to get to? Might we also start offering bases in J&K to US?
Hey why play the game by half? As it is now India appears to toe the US line without any obvious claims on bheek (handouts) from US? Lets make it really clear and say we are in your orbit, hook line and sinker?
I think Archan said it best (thanks!).
Anyway, life's too short for BruderKrieg on BRF.
You may of course disagree with me, but the above is a flame bait in my opinion and I may still take action on that. Especially the part about handing over J&K to US. That was totally uncalled for.Sanku wrote:Also SoKo is a client state of US, just as NoKo is a proxy of China!
Is that the level of debasement you want India to get to? Might we also start offering bases in J&K to US?
The phrase which captures the above thought is "CENTER OF GRAVITY"shiv wrote:
......<SNIP> If you look back through the years - the terrorists had the right idea. If you place a bomb in a railway station - people are killed and some people mourn for a few days and thats it. So if you are a group that wants revolution you really must target the top. Get Generals, the Gandhis, the ministers, and make their life so miserable and fearful that the nation can be brought to its knees. In fact terrorism was directed initially at top targets. It was first directed at the Army because the terrorists rightly calculated that if you can break the morale of the armed forces (by force) the civilians can do nothing. Naturally the armed forces were the first to wise up and make their areas tough to penetrate without the terrorists being killed. ...........
The bolded part above fits the description of Paki RAPE and TSPA perfectly.The Army tends to look for a single center of gravity, normally in the principal capability that stands in the way of the accomplishment of its own mission. In short, the army considers a "friendly" CoG as that element—a characteristic, capability, or locality—that enables one's own or allied forces to accomplish their objectives. Conversely, an opponent's CoG is that element that prevents friendly forces from accomplishing their objectives.
Archan, if you have to halal me, at least halal me for something I have actually said -- please note the exact quote (and no I have not edited)archan wrote:You may of course disagree with me, but the above is a flame bait in my opinion and I may still take action on that. Especially the part about handing over J&K to US. That was totally uncalled for.Sanku wrote:Also SoKo is a client state of US, just as NoKo is a proxy of China!
Is that the level of debasement you want India to get to? Might we also start offering bases in J&K to US?
Which is very different from what you have ascribed to me -- viz handing over J&K.Sanku wrote:Might we also start offering bases in J&K to US?
I would just like a small clarification.Also presence of US bases and Korean security is absolutely correct issue to bring up if the analogy with respect to the Korea's is to be considered -- presence of US troops in DMZ and Korea -- please note that I am only pointing out the obvious glaring issues in that respect.
This debate is OT and hence is replied hereamit wrote:
As a Mango Abdul BRFite I don't want to get into a discussion between a Moderator and a BRF Oldie.
However this caught my eye:
I would just like a small clarification.Also presence of US bases and Korean security is absolutely correct issue to bring up if the analogy with respect to the Korea's is to be considered -- presence of US troops in DMZ and Korea -- please note that I am only pointing out the obvious glaring issues in that respect.
Does the quote imply that South Korea's remarkable economic progress and the lack of it in North Korea is somehow directly linked to the presence of US troops in the DMZ?
The Pakistan Olympic Association has postponed the country's annual national games for security reasons. "Teams are already not willing to come to Pakistan because of the security issues and we don't want a situation where a domestic event is also affected by some incident," Mr Hasan said.
Philip wrote:"Why Pak is obsessed with conspiracies?".
A nation that was created out of one of the world's worst conspiracies-to dismember India,founded upon falsehood,religious bigotry,and chicanery,cannot but exist but in a cesspool of intrigue,hatred and throat-slitting.The evil that personifies the state called Pak,will cease only when the state ceases to exist in its current form.India has to isolate itself as much as possible from the contamination of Pak.using efficient "floor management" techniques in J&K and watch the entity that Pak is devour upon itself ,thus destroying itself.By refusing to engage with Pak,Pak will have litlle other option but to harass its patrons the US and China.The US's presence in Af-Pak is a red rag to the bulls of jihad and the asinine and incompetent way in which the US and NATO massacre innocent civilians in going after the ungodly,siply adds insult to the injured of the faith.
The sounds emanating out of South Block from our MEA mandarins appear to be singing a new song.No longr is it "Yankee Doodle",but appears to be the first bars of the "Song of India".
Enjoy the following paper!
http://www.eurasiareview.com/2010/03/32 ... s-its.html
Lahore Terror Devours Its Creators - South Asia Intelligence
http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/mar/ ... gilani.htm'Tension' with India distracting us from terrorism in Pak: Gilani
Pakistan has said the world community should nudge India [ Images ] to resolve all "core" bilateral issues, including Kashmir and sharing of river waters, arguing that "tension" on its eastern border is a distraction to its fight against the Al Qaeda [ Images ] and the Taliban [ Images ] in its restive tribal belt.
"We want to maintain very good relations with India and with (rest of) our neighbours. Our enemy is terrorism and we have to focus on terrorism... We want the world to concentrate so that with India we resolve all our core issues including Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ] and (differences over sharing of river) water," Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani [ Images ] said on Wednesday.
At the expense of getting into a useless verbal slinging match with the Paki skunks, but instead of whining before the pompous Woodrow Wilson idiots, Nirupama Rao or I would say even MMS (if he can just step aside on the pavement as he walks the extra mile towards Pakis) should come out and convey to both US and TSP, that Pakis should not be distracted from fighting terrorists on its eastern border with India as well, and in doing so it would be promoiting peace. Somehow, I feel that either our diplomats are a bunch of no gooders, or they know something I don't, but I wonder why they let this sophistry of "tensions with India" preventing TSP from tackling terror pass without hanging TSP and US through that same message. This phrase is repeated with nauseating repitition by both US & TSP, that I would think in responding along the lines I suggest, US-India relations are not going to go any higher or lower. At least there will be a few smart "embedded reporters" who can pick up on India's message.Nihat wrote:'Tension' with India distracting us from terrorism in Pak: Gilani
http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/mar/ ... gilani.htm
The $7.6 billion project is crucial for Pakistan to avert a growing energy crisis already causing severe electricity shortages in the country of about 170 million.
The pipeline will connect Iran's South Fars gas field with Pakistan's southern Baluchistan and Sindh provinces.
Iran has the world's second-largest gas reserves after Russia. But sanctions by the West, political turmoil and construction delays have slowed its development as an exporter. Under the deal, 750 million cubic feet of gas will be pumped to Pakistan daily from Iran by mid-2015.
... India has been reluctant to join the project given its long-running distrust of Pakistan, with which it has fought three wars since they achieved independence in 1947.
A US citizen accused of preparing targets in the 2008 attacks on Mumbai, plans to change his plea to guilty on some charges, US court officials say.
Mr Headley and his legal team have been "in discussions with the government," his lawyer John Theis was quoted as saying by the Associated Press.
Prosecutors say Mr Headley, a Pakistani-American, made several surveillance trips to India and Denmark.
Is there a need for Bharat to respond every time a paki whines? pakis have been doing this for quite a while now, so what's new. Let them whine and beg, that is what they do best. If India is steadfast in her actions and beliefs, it has no reason to worry as she is stronger today than it has ever been since independence.CRamS wrote: At the expense of getting into a useless verbal slinging match with the Paki skunks, but instead of whining before the pompous Woodrow Wilson idiots, Nirupama Rao or I would say even MMS (if he can just step aside on the pavement as he walks the extra mile towards Pakis) should come out and convey to both US and TSP, that Pakis should not be distracted from fighting terrorists on its eastern border with India as well, and in doing so it would be promoiting peace. Somehow, I feel that either our diplomats are a bunch of no gooders, or they know something I don't, but I wonder why they let this sophistry of "tensions with India" preventing TSP from tackling terror pass without hanging TSP and US through that same message. This phrase is repeated with nauseating repitition by both US & TSP, that I would think in responding along the lines I suggest, US-India relations are not going to go any higher or lower. At least there will be a few smart "embedded reporters" who can pick up on India's message.