Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

[Rahul M]

OT

@ keshavchandra DO NOT reply to posts using this button
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[keshavchandra]

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[keshavchandra]

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[keshavchandra]

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[putnanja]

yo keshav, all of your posts are known and discussed here. Please look at previous pages. This information has already been linked. Please don't repost same things again.

Also, when you post articles from other sites/blogs, please provide links and post the contents that you are copying in the [ quote ] tags so that others can distinguish between your opinion and what you have copied from.

Perhaps, you can first post in the newbie thread, and lurk around for a while before making posts?

[putnanja]

This is some one had to say about the recent trials between two tanks

Arjun Vs T-90

Time of the Day: MBT (No.of Targets Assigned) No.of Successful Hits

B4 Noon T-90 (11) 9
Noon T-90 (11) 4
Night time T-90 (15) 7

B4 Noon Arjun (11) 11
Noon Arjun (11) 10
Night time Arjun (15) 15

This was said right here on the forum, why are you reposting it ?

[Austin]

Let us assume that the Army (after Tuffy and Huffy) miraculously comes up with a FMBT specification (or more realistically goes to Nizhny Tagil and gets a photocopy of their scrapped T-XX whatever ding dong), you still will be able to produce the exact same 50 tanks per year in two shifts.. So how "acceptable" is that?.

Its definately not acceptable if the best we can do is to get 50 tanks per year in two shifts it may dent operational requirements.

But T-xx the risk is mitigated because if Avadi cannot do it there is always an option to import it and quickly build on numbers while Avadi tries to build the same parallely but at slower rate.

[Vivek K]

There we go again - squeezing the T-90 in again by hook or by crook. Since the Arjun couldn't be kept out on the basis of performance, lets keep it out because they cannot make it fast enough!! We should invest NOW and build up cloning factories to make hundreds of Arjuns.

Pray also enlighten us all about the production rates achieved for the T-90 production facility?

[nachiket]

Let us assume that the Army (after Tuffy and Huffy) miraculously comes up with a FMBT specification (or more realistically goes to Nizhny Tagil and gets a photocopy of their scrapped T-XX whatever ding dong), you still will be able to produce the exact same 50 tanks per year in two shifts.. So how "acceptable" is that?.

Its definately not acceptable if the best we can do is to get 50 tanks per year in two shifts it may dent operational requirements.

But T-xx the risk is mitigated because if Avadi cannot do it there is always an option to import it and quickly build on numbers while Avadi tries to build the same parallely but at slower rate.

But if the Army comes up with the FMBT specification then it will have to be a DRDO product right? It won't be the T-XX. So how are we exactly supposed to buy FMBT from Russia when no such product exists there? Or will the GSQR's be tailored according to T-XX brochure? Even that plan may fail if the T-XX is cancelled.

[putnanja]

If the army orders around 600-800 tanks, avadi will scale up to probably 100/yr. If all the army wants is 124 more or say even 250, it can produce them in next 5 years with current assembly line.

[SwarnaShikhari]

Rahul bhai - you yanked my last post on Arjun for good reason as it had too many details

In any case, puppeteer likes aat sau while fully realizing additional capacity needs to be invested
He wants to aim high for he says scale will allow lot of magic to happen on economics, experimentation and improvements

Aat sau is escape velocity for Arjun and once it gets going with improvements puppeteer showed me a sealed envelope that has the real number that he wants to deliver in seven years time - all that he said is it will be in four figures

The exact number only he knows for now but said once he feels "AAALL IZZ WELL" he will let me know

He is making his case and is optimistic as the meeta paan he gave me recently was unusually sweeter

[Austin]

Ajai Shukla responded to some queries on his blog

Alert readers!

Thanks for drawing my attention to the engine BHP mistake. It is 1400, as you point out, not 1500. I've made the amendment in the article.

Anonymous 07:48:

The Nag is not used because it cannot be fired from the barrel of a tank. It is too big.

Sujith:

ERA is necessary to deal with shaped charge threats, which the existing Kanchan armour cannot handle.

Venkatesh Thiruvarul

Let the order come and then they can start deciding upon the number of shifts. Don't count your chickens before they are hatched.

Export? Good idea! You know some countries that are ordering?

Anonymous 13:23:

I don't think it would be correct to call the army "shifty". They are actually quite straightforward.

What they certainly are is "inflexible". As they see it, they were correct in opposing the Arjun for so many years... and the DRDO was to blame for overpromising and under-delivering. Now, with the tank ready for operational use, why should they rush to accept it. That sums up the way the army thinks.

The answer, of course, is: it is in the army's own long-term interest to accept and mentor the Arjun.

Anonymous 00:00

The new army chief has not had ANY role in this so far. He has not even seen the report.

Indeed this has happened soon after he took over charge, but that is coincidence.

Saying that he had a role is a bit like saying, "The Polish president must have been the key opponent to the Arjun. As soon as he died, the Arjun has been accepted!"

[Viv S]

Sujith:

ERA is necessary to deal with shaped charge threats, which the existing Kanchan armour cannot handle.

Hmm... maybe Leopard 2A5 style spaced add-on armour is required after all.

[shanksinha]

So the T-90 is obsolete NOW, eh?

Come on Rahul M do you really believe this, or is anything justified to browbeat Philips. Plz dont get carried away.

[Rahul M]

yes it is, may be not if you compare it with paki or BD tanks but compared to the global standard it definitely, has been so for more than 20 years. (then again not obsolete against PA al-khalids DOES NOT mean it will survive an encounter with al-khalids, just that both will be equally dead)
I believe I've provided enough information why I think so, in this very thread. please go through those.

why on earth would I want to browbeat Philip (not philips) ? why do you think he is one to be 'browbeaten' in the first place ?

[Philip]

I'm enjoying this healthy debate as long as one doesn't get unneccessarily personal.It is neccessary for us to challenge each other's viewpoints so that we can see matters from another perspective and arrive at intelligent decision making!

To my mind,a decade is a huge amount of time in RMA terms.10 years ago,we were nowhere as far as perfecting Arjun as of now and even the T-90 was just visible on the horizon.True,old weapon systems have life left in them and soldier on long after their original lfetimes,the Viraat/Hermes is perhaps the best example.The Israelis used their Centurion tanks for decades and we've also kept our Vijayanta's and T-55s for as long as possible.I remember during the last crisis with China over a decade ago there was a v.urgent request to the sole company in the country making a particular component for the VIjayanta,a huge order ,"just in case.."
So even the T-72s will be still serving us in their upgraded form,but when it comes to the frontline tanks required for "Cold Start","Hot Leap" or whatever phrase the IA's doctrine of the day is,equipped with the latest and best makes a difference as the Paki army is not a walkover and in the west will be fighting to survive as a nation with their backs to the wall,unlike in Bangladesh where they had contempt for the Bengalis.A 155/152mm main gun and 5/6km anti-tank missiles on a future FMBT,with new self-defence systems, will outclass ,at least on paper what we have at present.We will most probably have at that time three layers of tank types,the oldest being upgraded T-72s,middling ones in T-90s and early Arjuns,and a new FMBT for the frontline layer and/or further upgrades of either or both the T-90s and Arjun.

In the last Lebanon War the Israelis were rudely surprised by the Hiz's tactics where ground forces knockd out scores of Merkavas using mainly RPGs and a few anti-tank missiles.Current army doctrines around the world look at enhancing the killing force of an infantrymen with new clothing and eqpt.The future tanks will have to meet that challenge too as warfare and weaponry do not remain static.

[Rahul M]

philip saar, we have already gone over these discussions more than once. it doesn't help the discussion quality if you keep ignoring points that have been already made !
to rehash,

A 155/152mm main gun and 5/6km anti-tank missiles on a future FMBT,with new self-defence systems, will outclass ,at least on paper what we have at present.

152/155 mm main gun

the russians have been talking of 152 mm tank main gun for well over 25 years now with no actual signs of progress. per latest reports the T-95 stands canceled. no one else has any similar sized gun armed tank in development or even as a proposal AFAIK. (other than a rumour of a chinese super-tank which weighs more than 80 tonne)

the rationale behind the proposed move towards 152mm guns was that a faster APFSDS projectile can be fired that should be theoretically able to defeat most modern armours. the problems with such a move might however prove insurmountable in the foreseeable future.

> no tank can withstand the recoil from such a powerful gun, it will literally rip-off the turret.
this can only be solved with a much heavier tank, probably in the high 70's or 80 tonne, which brings its own problems of mobility and fuel economy.
> if the projectile velocity is reduced to keep the recoil within manageable levels it will not give any considerable advantage over current 120 mm or 125 mm tank guns, defeating the very purpose of such a move.
> we can well imagine how big a single 152 mm or 155 mm shell is going to be ! at least 60-70% bigger by volume and much heavier as well ! how many will fit in a 'normal' sized tank ? 25 ? 20 ? 15 ?

5/6km anti-tank missiles on a future FMBT

the LAHAT is already there and claims a higher range than that. we don't need a FMBT for this.

new self-defence systems

again nothing that is unique to some hypothetical FMBT, in fact IA still doesn't know what it wants from FMBT. they were hoping the russkies will solve that part but once they are out of the program (the americans having already canceled their FMBT long back) it would be interesting see what IA comes up with.

I would give it a high chance that we don't see a definitive FMBT GSQR even by 2015.

[vina]

the russians have been talking of 152 mm tank main gun for well over 25 years now with no actual signs of progress. per latest reports the T-95 stands canceled. no one else has any similar sized gun armed tank in development or even as a proposal AFAIK. (other than a rumour of a chinese super-tank which weighs more than 80 tonne)

the rationale behind the proposed move towards 152mm guns was that a faster APFSDS projectile can be fired that should be theoretically able to defeat most modern armours. the problems with such a move might however prove insurmountable in the foreseeable future

Rheinmetall did look at a 140mm, but decided there is no threat in the foreseeable future that neeeded that and that the 55 caliber version of their 120mm gun can do the job perfectly. Hence the L55 in Leo 2A6 was adopted (longer barrel, higher muzzle velocity coz gases have more barrel volume to expand).

The Korean K2 tank has provision to fit the 140mm gun if Rheinmetall decides to produce it.

That said, this 152mm fetish is a peculiarly Russian problem and that is because of the smaller lenghts of the Russian APFSDS muntion because of the current layout and autoloader restriction. For them to increase penetration, they cannot go to the L/D rations of the western type tanks. They have to increase the bore size . Let us be clear why they make the design choices they have to. There is a reason behind everything.

With Arjun, we can go for longer penetrators and larger calibers if greater penetration is needed before needing to go to higher bores.

[Austin]

Does any one know at what velocity does T-90 main gun ( 125mm ) fires the APFSDS round ?
I remember reading some DRDO news letter giving a figure of ~ 1600 m/s for Arjun 120mm main gun.

[Philip]

Rahul,the 152mm gun tank design is supposed to be turretless.Not to worry,we've got a decade in which to wait to see it or any other appear!

[d_berwal]

Does any one know at what velocity does T-90 main gun ( 125mm ) fires the APFSDS round ?
I remember reading some DRDO news letter giving a figure of ~ 1600 m/s for Arjun 120mm main gun.

1720 m/s

[Austin]

Does any one know at what velocity does T-90 main gun ( 125mm ) fires the APFSDS round ?
I remember reading some DRDO news letter giving a figure of ~ 1600 m/s for Arjun 120mm main gun.

1720 m/s

Thanks , I never expected the T-90S has that good muzzle velocity for APFDS round , I read that upgraded T-90M has better muzzle velocity with new gun than the T-90S ( Bishma) gun.

There was an option for 1200 HP engine for T-90 wonder why the IA did not opt for it ,any idea ? perhaps to maintain as as a standard wrt CIA ( 1000 hp) ?

Any ways I think the slightly lower velocity of Arjun 120mm gun is because its a rifled gun that provides higher accuracy at long range compared to smooth bore.

[Austin]

I remember reading in a Defence Mag ( Mil Tech ) the French Leclerc with 120mm smoothbore gun had a muzzle velocity of ~ 1700 m/s with APFDS round and it was advertised as the best in its class.

[d_berwal]

Thanks , I never expected the T-90S has that good muzzle velocity for APFDS round , I read that upgraded T-90M has better muzzle velocity with new gun than the T-90S ( Bishma) gun.

There was an option for 1200 HP engine for T-90 wonder why the IA did not opt for it ,any idea ? perhaps to maintain as as a standard wrt CIA ( 1000 hp) ?

Any ways I think the slightly lower velocity of Arjun 120mm gun is because its a rifled gun that provides higher accuracy at long range compared to smooth bore.

T-90M can fire the new log rod penetrator because of new autoloader

1200HP engine is a recent development

No one has picked up from shukla article.. K-5 to be used on Arjun ... (w.r.t ToT for K-5 is complete)

now y would we want T-90 ERA on ARJUN .... Obsolete ERA

Lahat has to still pass the test, its firing has been demonstrated but not passed any test....

[Raye]

Its pretty scary to post in BR,don't blast me with Arjun's guns . My only concern to Gurus, though i am an illiterate Arjun fan, won't it be a logistical nightmare as already suggested, with two mbt's in our force(as some are suggesting to split our tank's if 4000, equally).Arjun is a success fine, lets not be hyper with any limitation/improvement as some are still suggesting. In wartime scenario this drawback may affect our tank potency and thus nagate to some extent Arjun's /t90 's adv against our adversary's. Just a suggestion for future mbt , can't we 1 tank what ever it is, rest as reserve , old junks like t55,etc, donate to some other countries, along with a military package.Its high time time we start some export ,We can start off with Arjun/Prithvi missile maybe with Vietnam!

[Rahul M]

No one has picked up from shukla article.. K-5 to be used on Arjun ... (w.r.t ToT for K-5 is complete)

only as a stop gap. wait and see what ERA actually features on production arjuns.

now y would we want T-90 ERA on ARJUN .... Obsolete ERA

K-5 was projected as a panacea that renders normal composite armour irrelevant, which is clearly not the case. K-5 might still be a decent ERA (ERA works only against certain weapons) but it does NOT provide a complete protection package, as is claimed by T-90 lobby.

[Rahul M]

raye, how many tank varieties do we operate now ? has the IA EVER operated a single tank type ?

[d_berwal]

only as a stop gap. wait and see what ERA actually features on production arjuns.

K-5 branded in Indian label...

well production ARJUN has no ERA thats y K-5

K-5 was projected as a panacea that renders normal composite armour irrelevant, which is clearly not the case. K-5 might still be a decent ERA (ERA works only against certain weapons) but it does NOT provide a complete protection package, as is claimed by T-90 lobby.

every ERA's performance varies ....

Can u provide a link that T-90 lobby quoted it to be complete protection package ?

[vina]

Thanks , I never expected the T-90S has that good muzzle velocity for APFDS round , I read that upgraded T-90M has better muzzle velocity with new gun than the T-90S ( Bishma) gun.

There was an option for 1200 HP engine for T-90 wonder why the IA did not opt for it ,any idea ? perhaps to maintain as as a standard wrt CIA ( 1000 hp) ?

Any ways I think the slightly lower velocity of Arjun 120mm gun is because its a rifled gun that provides higher accuracy at long range compared to smooth bore.

. More than the velocity at the muzzle, what is lot more important is the velocity at which it impacts the target . From high school Fyzz.. sicks you might remember that impusle = mass * velocity.

Now with a lower L/D (fatter than thinner) ratio, the drop in velocity will be much higher for a T series APFSDS than a longer thinner one fired that can be fired from an Arjun. And of course, you can fire a longer heavier one from the Arjun than the T series, and thereby hitting the target with a far higher impulse. ..

So all in all, I would put my money on the Arjun because of fundamentals.

JMT and all the rest of it of course. Danke.

[Austin]

T-90M can fire the new log rod penetrator because of new autoloader

Any advantage with new log rod penetrator and 1200 hp engine if T-90 opts for in upgrade or new ?

K-5 is now progressively replaced by Kaktus ERA.

[d_berwal]

T-90M can fire the new log rod penetrator because of new autoloader

Any advantage with new log rod penetrator and 1200 hp engine if T-90 opts for in upgrade or new ?

K-5 is now progressively replaced by Kaktus ERA.

the new long rod penetrator gives equivalent performance to western latest ammo...

K-5 is still better that what is on upgraded Ajey....

We may see Kaktus or Relict in future batches of T-90 .... (not confirmed yet)

[Raye]

Few months back i was arguing with a young captain forwarding arjun's case. He simply replied like this. "Consider a battle scenario , group of soldiers desperately fighting to retain advance enemy grounds against an enemy counter attack in a canal laced terrain. forget arti support, they are so abundant too speak off ,supposedly tanks are to cross in and give them some respite. Bye the time Arjun can cross over,its already too late for the desperate soldiers, problem with arjun he said its too good, while trying to bunch everything in that, they compromised with some critical aspect." Now critical aspects he didn't shared, this is much before the trials, and hopefully as trials show, shortcomings are well taken care off.

[Viv S]

Any ways I think the slightly lower velocity of Arjun 120mm gun is because its a rifled gun that provides higher accuracy at long range compared to smooth bore.

Not really. Addition of fins to a KE penetrator offsets the need for rifling. As far as I can see we're persisting with a rifled gun only because it fire HESH rounds in addition to regular KE and HE rounds.

[Viv S]

To the knowledgeable,

Do we have a DU round in service with the IA?

[Rahul M]

only as a stop gap. wait and see what ERA actually features on production arjuns.

K-5 branded in Indian label... (that's pure speculation on you part and completely wrong too)

well production ARJUN has no ERA thats y K-5
{K-5 for now. ERA was developed for the arjun project but was not used since the kanchan gave enough protection. those DRDO ERA was used on the CIA as I'm sure you know.

so it's factually incorrect to say we don't have any desi ERA. a more advanced ERA is under development and till that goes into full-scale production the K-5 will serve as stop-gap, that's about it.}

K-5 was projected as a panacea that renders normal composite armour irrelevant, which is clearly not the case. K-5 might still be a decent ERA (ERA works only against certain weapons) but it does NOT provide a complete protection package, as is claimed by T-90 lobby.

every ERA's performance varies ....

Can u provide a link that T-90 lobby quoted it to be complete protection package ?

{the previous pages of this thread should do.}

p.s. do you mind writing in complete words ? we will rather do without expressions like "that's y" and similar juvenile SMS lingo. this is not the first time I'm asking you either.

[Viv S]

Few months back i was arguing with a young captain forwarding arjun's case. He simply replied like this. "Consider a battle scenario , group of soldiers desperately fighting to retain advance enemy grounds against an enemy counter attack in a canal laced terrain. forget arti support, they are so abundant too speak off ,supposedly tanks are to cross in and give them some respite. Bye the time Arjun can cross over,its already too late for the desperate soldiers, problem with arjun he said its too good, while trying to bunch everything in that, they compromised with some critical aspect." Now critical aspects he didn't shared, this is much before the trials, and hopefully as trials show, shortcomings are well taken care off.

Well I happened to have a chat with an colonel, the CO of an Engr regiment with the 31st Armoured. He had similar misconceptions(with regard to his defects) and the Arjun's success in all recent trials has gone a long way in correcting these. Once such dissenters are actually exposed to the tank, get a chance to use it, their opinion usually undergoes a 180 deg reversal (like Col. Ajai Shukla for example).

For the record, the desperate soldiers would prefer a Arjun firing rather than a T-90 on fire. The latter unlike the Arjun, while somewhat better does NOT have a decisive advantage over its adversaries in combat.

[Rahul M]

Few months back i was arguing with a young captain forwarding arjun's case. He simply replied like this. "Consider a battle scenario , group of soldiers desperately fighting to retain advance enemy grounds against an enemy counter attack in a canal laced terrain. forget arti support, they are so abundant too speak off ,supposedly tanks are to cross in and give them some respite. Bye the time Arjun can cross over,its already too late for the desperate soldiers, problem with arjun he said its too good, while trying to bunch everything in that, they compromised with some critical aspect." Now critical aspects he didn't shared, this is much before the trials, and hopefully as trials show, shortcomings are well taken care off.

could you ask your friend how arjun will take longer time but T-90 (say) will not ? last we heard the T-90 can't fly.

[Surya]

If purely higher calibre was going to determine the quality of the tank - the T series (62 and higher) should have fared better against the Israelis in the earlier wars (yom kippur and before)

[Surya]

last we heard the T-90 can't fly.

What???

Bah humbug

Its turret can fly

and with the gun and ammo in it - thats enough

[Vivek K]