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This was said right here on the forum, why are you reposting it ?keshavchandra wrote:This is some one had to say about the recent trials between two tanks
Arjun Vs T-90
Time of the Day: MBT (No.of Targets Assigned) No.of Successful Hits
B4 Noon T-90 (11) 9
Noon T-90 (11) 4
Night time T-90 (15) 7
B4 Noon Arjun (11) 11
Noon Arjun (11) 10
Night time Arjun (15) 15
Its definately not acceptable if the best we can do is to get 50 tanks per year in two shifts it may dent operational requirements.vina wrote:Let us assume that the Army (after Tuffy and Huffy) miraculously comes up with a FMBT specification (or more realistically goes to Nizhny Tagil and gets a photocopy of their scrapped T-XX whatever ding dong), you still will be able to produce the exact same 50 tanks per year in two shifts.. So how "acceptable" is that?.
But if the Army comes up with the FMBT specification then it will have to be a DRDO product right? It won't be the T-XX. So how are we exactly supposed to buy FMBT from Russia when no such product exists there? Or will the GSQR's be tailored according to T-XX brochure? Even that plan may fail if the T-XX is cancelled.Austin wrote:Its definately not acceptable if the best we can do is to get 50 tanks per year in two shifts it may dent operational requirements.vina wrote:Let us assume that the Army (after Tuffy and Huffy) miraculously comes up with a FMBT specification (or more realistically goes to Nizhny Tagil and gets a photocopy of their scrapped T-XX whatever ding dong), you still will be able to produce the exact same 50 tanks per year in two shifts.. So how "acceptable" is that?.
But T-xx the risk is mitigated because if Avadi cannot do it there is always an option to import it and quickly build on numbers while Avadi tries to build the same parallely but at slower rate.
Alert readers!
Thanks for drawing my attention to the engine BHP mistake. It is 1400, as you point out, not 1500. I've made the amendment in the article.
Anonymous 07:48:
The Nag is not used because it cannot be fired from the barrel of a tank. It is too big.
Sujith:
ERA is necessary to deal with shaped charge threats, which the existing Kanchan armour cannot handle.
Venkatesh Thiruvarul
Let the order come and then they can start deciding upon the number of shifts. Don't count your chickens before they are hatched.
Export? Good idea! You know some countries that are ordering?
Anonymous 13:23:
I don't think it would be correct to call the army "shifty". They are actually quite straightforward.
What they certainly are is "inflexible". As they see it, they were correct in opposing the Arjun for so many years... and the DRDO was to blame for overpromising and under-delivering. Now, with the tank ready for operational use, why should they rush to accept it. That sums up the way the army thinks.
The answer, of course, is: it is in the army's own long-term interest to accept and mentor the Arjun.
Anonymous 00:00
The new army chief has not had ANY role in this so far. He has not even seen the report.
Indeed this has happened soon after he took over charge, but that is coincidence.
Saying that he had a role is a bit like saying, "The Polish president must have been the key opponent to the Arjun. As soon as he died, the Arjun has been accepted!"
Sujith:
ERA is necessary to deal with shaped charge threats, which the existing Kanchan armour cannot handle.
152/155 mm main gunA 155/152mm main gun and 5/6km anti-tank missiles on a future FMBT,with new self-defence systems, will outclass ,at least on paper what we have at present.
the LAHAT is already there and claims a higher range than that. we don't need a FMBT for this.5/6km anti-tank missiles on a future FMBT
again nothing that is unique to some hypothetical FMBT, in fact IA still doesn't know what it wants from FMBT. they were hoping the russkies will solve that part but once they are out of the program (the americans having already canceled their FMBT long back) it would be interesting see what IA comes up with.new self-defence systems
Rheinmetall did look at a 140mm, but decided there is no threat in the foreseeable future that neeeded that and that the 55 caliber version of their 120mm gun can do the job perfectly. Hence the L55 in Leo 2A6 was adopted (longer barrel, higher muzzle velocity coz gases have more barrel volume to expand).the russians have been talking of 152 mm tank main gun for well over 25 years now with no actual signs of progress. per latest reports the T-95 stands canceled. no one else has any similar sized gun armed tank in development or even as a proposal AFAIK. (other than a rumour of a chinese super-tank which weighs more than 80 tonne)
the rationale behind the proposed move towards 152mm guns was that a faster APFSDS projectile can be fired that should be theoretically able to defeat most modern armours. the problems with such a move might however prove insurmountable in the foreseeable future
1720 m/sAustin wrote:Does any one know at what velocity does T-90 main gun ( 125mm ) fires the APFSDS round ?
I remember reading some DRDO news letter giving a figure of ~ 1600 m/s for Arjun 120mm main gun.
Thanks , I never expected the T-90S has that good muzzle velocity for APFDS round , I read that upgraded T-90M has better muzzle velocity with new gun than the T-90S ( Bishma) gun.d_berwal wrote:1720 m/sAustin wrote:Does any one know at what velocity does T-90 main gun ( 125mm ) fires the APFSDS round ?
I remember reading some DRDO news letter giving a figure of ~ 1600 m/s for Arjun 120mm main gun.
T-90M can fire the new log rod penetrator because of new autoloaderAustin wrote: Thanks , I never expected the T-90S has that good muzzle velocity for APFDS round , I read that upgraded T-90M has better muzzle velocity with new gun than the T-90S ( Bishma) gun.
There was an option for 1200 HP engine for T-90 wonder why the IA did not opt for it ,any idea ? perhaps to maintain as as a standard wrt CIA ( 1000 hp) ?
Any ways I think the slightly lower velocity of Arjun 120mm gun is because its a rifled gun that provides higher accuracy at long range compared to smooth bore.
only as a stop gap. wait and see what ERA actually features on production arjuns.d_berwal wrote:No one has picked up from shukla article.. K-5 to be used on Arjun ... (w.r.t ToT for K-5 is complete)
K-5 was projected as a panacea that renders normal composite armour irrelevant, which is clearly not the case. K-5 might still be a decent ERA (ERA works only against certain weapons) but it does NOT provide a complete protection package, as is claimed by T-90 lobby.now y would we want T-90 ERA on ARJUN .... Obsolete ERA![]()
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K-5 branded in Indian label...Rahul M wrote:
only as a stop gap. wait and see what ERA actually features on production arjuns.![]()
every ERA's performance varies ....K-5 was projected as a panacea that renders normal composite armour irrelevant, which is clearly not the case. K-5 might still be a decent ERA (ERA works only against certain weapons) but it does NOT provide a complete protection package, as is claimed by T-90 lobby.
Thanks , I never expected the T-90S has that good muzzle velocity for APFDS round , I read that upgraded T-90M has better muzzle velocity with new gun than the T-90S ( Bishma) gun.
There was an option for 1200 HP engine for T-90 wonder why the IA did not opt for it ,any idea ? perhaps to maintain as as a standard wrt CIA ( 1000 hp) ?
Any ways I think the slightly lower velocity of Arjun 120mm gun is because its a rifled gun that provides higher accuracy at long range compared to smooth bore.
Any advantage with new log rod penetrator and 1200 hp engine if T-90 opts for in upgrade or new ?d_berwal wrote: T-90M can fire the new log rod penetrator because of new autoloader
the new long rod penetrator gives equivalent performance to western latest ammo...Austin wrote:Any advantage with new log rod penetrator and 1200 hp engine if T-90 opts for in upgrade or new ?d_berwal wrote: T-90M can fire the new log rod penetrator because of new autoloader
K-5 is now progressively replaced by Kaktus ERA.
Not really. Addition of fins to a KE penetrator offsets the need for rifling. As far as I can see we're persisting with a rifled gun only because it fire HESH rounds in addition to regular KE and HE rounds.Austin wrote:Any ways I think the slightly lower velocity of Arjun 120mm gun is because its a rifled gun that provides higher accuracy at long range compared to smooth bore.
p.s. do you mind writing in complete words ? we will rather do without expressions like "that's y" and similar juvenile SMS lingo. this is not the first time I'm asking you either.d_berwal wrote:K-5 branded in Indian label... (that's pure speculation on you part and completely wrong too)Rahul M wrote:
only as a stop gap. wait and see what ERA actually features on production arjuns.![]()
well production ARJUN has no ERA thats y K-5
{K-5 for now. ERA was developed for the arjun project but was not used since the kanchan gave enough protection. those DRDO ERA was used on the CIA as I'm sure you know.![]()
so it's factually incorrect to say we don't have any desi ERA. a more advanced ERA is under development and till that goes into full-scale production the K-5 will serve as stop-gap, that's about it.}every ERA's performance varies ....K-5 was projected as a panacea that renders normal composite armour irrelevant, which is clearly not the case. K-5 might still be a decent ERA (ERA works only against certain weapons) but it does NOT provide a complete protection package, as is claimed by T-90 lobby.
Can u provide a link that T-90 lobby quoted it to be complete protection package ?
{the previous pages of this thread should do.}
Well I happened to have a chat with an colonel, the CO of an Engr regiment with the 31st Armoured. He had similar misconceptions(with regard to his defects) and the Arjun's success in all recent trials has gone a long way in correcting these. Once such dissenters are actually exposed to the tank, get a chance to use it, their opinion usually undergoes a 180 deg reversal (like Col. Ajai Shukla for example).Raye wrote:Few months back i was arguing with a young captain forwarding arjun's case. He simply replied like this. "Consider a battle scenario , group of soldiers desperately fighting to retain advance enemy grounds against an enemy counter attack in a canal laced terrain. forget arti support, they are so abundant too speak off ,supposedly tanks are to cross in and give them some respite. Bye the time Arjun can cross over,its already too late for the desperate soldiers, problem with arjun he said its too good, while trying to bunch everything in that, they compromised with some critical aspect." Now critical aspects he didn't shared, this is much before the trials, and hopefully as trials show, shortcomings are well taken care off.
could you ask your friend how arjun will take longer time but T-90 (say) will not ? last we heard the T-90 can't fly.Raye wrote:Few months back i was arguing with a young captain forwarding arjun's case. He simply replied like this. "Consider a battle scenario , group of soldiers desperately fighting to retain advance enemy grounds against an enemy counter attack in a canal laced terrain. forget arti support, they are so abundant too speak off ,supposedly tanks are to cross in and give them some respite. Bye the time Arjun can cross over,its already too late for the desperate soldiers, problem with arjun he said its too good, while trying to bunch everything in that, they compromised with some critical aspect." Now critical aspects he didn't shared, this is much before the trials, and hopefully as trials show, shortcomings are well taken care off.
What???last we heard the T-90 can't fly.