Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2010

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Apr 2010 18:09

Pakistan Azam-e-Nau military exercises.
They are probably using the Bahawalpur PAFB for this. The area is closest to the IB by about 60 Km.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Apr 2010 18:55

Battle of Basantar / Battle of Barapind (Dec 4 - Dec 16, 1971)
This is the chicken neck area. Pakistan has always had a fetish for this area and have always sought to attack here to try and cut off J&K from the Indian Mainland. The reason is that from the IB there is a flat area of some 80-100 Km wide before high mountains begin to the east. There is essentially one road and one railway line between Pathankot and Jammu. Cutting this off means that supply to J&K will be in trouble. To this day, 63 years later and 3 major wars later, India has not sought to rectify the situation by building an all weather road from shimla to leh so that J&K can have 24x7x365 supply route.

This is the battle where Maj. Hoshiar Singh Cheema used his anti tank with devastating effect on the pakistani tanks and was awarded the PVC.

References:
http://pakistan-observer.blogspot.com/2 ... chive.html

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Apr 2010 19:32

Blast from the past:

Zia Ul Haq giving full respect to Z A Bhutto...

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Apr 2010 19:36

How the highly pure treat the merely pure:
Image has mutilated body parts : DO NOT OPEN if faint hearted

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8bEdZGbBsg0/S ... 2+copy.jpg

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 21 Apr 2010 19:39

a small query to the learned ones,
would the continuous use of unlined canals lead to development of bogs around the canals, such as ones used by TSP, and would this affect tank movement?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Apr 2010 19:52

Gagan wrote:Blast from the past:

Zia Ul Haq giving full respect to Z A Bhutto...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8bEdZGbBsg0/S ... 2Bcunt.jpg

Brilliant - have archived it for posteriority!

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 21 Apr 2010 20:03

One month before...

This one should go with that. The body language is striking.

Almost everyone in that picture save Nawaz knew what was going down.

All the plans were complete.

Sanju · Post by **Sanju** » 21 Apr 2010 20:21

In Gagan's post earlier showing Zia stooping to Bhutto, the soldier is saluting with his left hand.

Isn't this usually the case when the soldier has lost his right hand? However, there seems to be a baton sticking out of his right side. So may have lost part of his arm only.

Nice picture Gagan. A keeper as the Doc says. Thanks!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Apr 2010 20:26

'A Common Destiny' - Aman ki Asha Programme in Pakistan

An interesting set of participants from India.

“A Common Destiny”, the first of Aman ki Asha’s series of discussions on issues of strategic importance to India and Pakistan kicks off on Thursday with prominent intellectuals, those who have been close to historical events, and are leaders of thought in their own right.

The event will begin with a day-long closed-door session on April 22, followed by an interaction with invited members of the civil society and the media on April 23. Delegates from India include former foreign secretary Salman Haider, well-known analysts and writers Prem Shankar Jha and Amitabh Mattoo, Admiral (retd) Nayyer and Admiral (retd) Ramu Ramdas.

Jaideep Bose, Editor of The Economic Times, the world’s second largest business paper in English, and Ranjan Roy, the associate editor and the editor Times News Network will also attend the conference.

Bose is also the editor of The Times of India, the world’s largest English language newspaper that is partnering with the Jang Group to take forward the Aman ki Asha peace initiative between India and Pakistan.

Amitabh Mattoo, the former editor of ‘The Telegraph’, has been chairperson of the Centre for International Politics, Organisation and Disarmament at the Jawaharlal Nehru University.’ He has authored 10 books on nuclear issues, foreign policy and international relations, more than 50 research articles (including in leading journals like Survival and Asian Survey).

Prem Shankar Jha has written several books about socio-economic affairs pertaining to India and its neighbours. From serving as Deputy Chief of the Naval Staff till opting for his second career as a leading peace activist and campaigner against nuclear weapons from 1993 to the present, Admiral (retd) Ramdas brings a diverse experience with him.

He is Chairperson Emeritus of the India chapter of the Pakistan-India Peopleís Forum for Peace and Democracy, the largest people-to-people initiative between the two countries. Salman Haider served in the Indian Foreign Service for four decades before associating himself with think tanks in New Delhi and Chandigarh. His publications include Section on Bhutan in ‘External Affairs: Cross-Border Relations’, Roli Books 2003; ‘Afghanistan’, Manohar Publishers 2002; ‘India-Bangladesh’ CRRID 2005.

From Pakistan, Aitzaz Ahsan, Dr Mubashir Hasan, Khurshid Mehmood Kasuri, IA Rehman, Sherry Rehman, Arif Nizami and Shafqat Mahmood will participate in the discussions. The discussions, moderated by Maj-Gen (retd) Mahmud Ali Durrani, will revolve around the question of whether there should be peace between India and Pakistan, the long-term strategic interests of both the countries and how to pursue “A Common Destiny”.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Apr 2010 20:31

Sanju wrote:In Gagan's post earlier showing Zia stooping to Bhutto, the soldier is saluting with his left hand.

Isn't this usually the case when the soldier has lost his right hand? However, there seems to be a baton sticking out of his right side. So may have lost part of his arm only.

Or the more likely explanation is that the image is a mirror image, a common occurrence in the era when film reels were used to develop pictures.
If someone remembers the photos of Pokharan-2 N tests given out by PIB were mirror images

reversed L->R to confuse the videshis.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Apr 2010 20:48

Gagan x-post the two maps in the Pak armed forces thread and the Indian army history thread (basantar).
Thanks,ramana

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Apr 2010 20:51

I am a little apprehensive after watching that Najam Sethi - Mani Shankar Aiyar video. MSA talks about MMS and Geelani walking hand in hand to accept the Nobel piss prize.

Point is:
1. Mani Shankar Aiyar probably surfs BRF. I sensed that he is aware at some level what is dissucced here. Was he playing to the MMS baiting gallery here?
2. MSA is open about what MMS and Mushy had agreed to. It was not against the parliament resolution regarding the status of J&K, BUT CERTAINLY AGAINST THE SPIRIT OF THAT RESOLUTION.

Joint access to J&K is a NO
Withdrawl from Siachen is a biog NO.

We will only be giving pakistan a big opening here.

Let us all realize one thing. Pakistan will SURVIVE this current imbroglio, battle damaged, but still in one piece.
The US has starting rearming pakistan to India's detriment.
The US is financially supporting Pakistan's economy to prevent it from collapse.
all in all, these are aimed at allowing pakistan to escape the sinkhole it is in currently to live to fight another day.

And who the pakistanis want to fight is amply clear.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Apr 2010 20:56

Sanju wrote:In Gagan's post earlier showing Zia stooping to Bhutto, the soldier is saluting with his left hand.

Isn't this usually the case when the soldier has lost his right hand? However, there seems to be a baton sticking out of his right side. So may have lost part of his arm only.

The image is a mirror of the original. That's all.

Sanju · Post by **Sanju** » 21 Apr 2010 21:01

Thanks Gagan And Shiv.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Apr 2010 21:16

That picture was from this blog.
http://low-intensity-conflict-review.blogspot.com/

One might add this blog to the list of the ones to watch out for.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 21 Apr 2010 22:28

Gagan wrote:That picture was from this blog.
http://low-intensity-conflict-review.blogspot.com/

One might add this blog to the list of the ones to watch out for.

Gagan,

This is a very interesting blog. He looks like an ex-PA guy. Who is he really? is the stuff he writes credible?

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 21 Apr 2010 22:58

pgbhat wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:At Top University, a Fight for Pakistan’s Future

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/21/world ... rsity.html
The related video (below) is interesting as well. The English Prof. calls Pakjabi University a giant "madrassah", full of mujahids from rural Pakjab. According to her, the campus hostel is "overcrowded" with them. AoA!!
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2010/04/ ... ampus.html

Shame .. A university which produced people Like Har Gobind Khorana, Satish Dhawan (ISRO's ex chairman), and Abdus Salam (BTW, all were later disowned by Islamic Pakistan) is reduced to to a typical Paki place.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Apr 2010 23:11

The pakistanis have run to the ground any and every institution that fell in their territory.

We should be saying what a shame, instead I can only say good riddance they got their pakistan to ruin as they felt the need for.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 21 Apr 2010 23:13

Gagan wrote:
Let us all realize one thing. Pakistan will SURVIVE this current imbroglio, battle damaged, but still in one piece.
The US has starting rearming pakistan to India's detriment.
The US is financially supporting Pakistan's economy to prevent it from collapse.
all in all, these are aimed at allowing pakistan to escape the sinkhole it is in currently to live to fight another day.

For all of TSP's protestations against USA, this has been TSP's single-minded objectives. Namely, as TSP was being squeezed by US, it was in serious danger of its ability to give India a bloody nose should the latter dare to retaliate to its terrorist provocations. As that analyst, George Friedman, or whoever pointed out, US started realizing that the balance was tilting damgerously in India's favor, and I think with the induction of thugs like Holbrooke & Co, this imbalance is being addressed. Hence you see TSP becoming even more amenable to US diktats and more aggressive towards India. Basically, TSP has gotten US support on the following issues: 1) LET off the table and Mumbai at most a footnote with any trace of TSPA/ISI involvement completely obliterated, 2) Strategic depth in Afganisthan will be allowed, 3) India at best will be a euncuh in Afganisthan to satisfy its H&D and not pull back ignonimously in response to TSP's terror, 4) sophisticated military hardware and humongous economic aid, and 5) India TSP equal equal at the diplomatic level with the ultimate equal equal prize: nuke deal at some point in the not too distant future.

Thus, you can be assured TSP will not rock the boat in the interim, probably giving enough political cover to MMS to make joint love with Pakis in Srinagar after honeymoon in Stockholm, Sweeden.

TSP is winning, and will win big at the denounement of AfPak to live on to fight another day.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 21 Apr 2010 23:22

Amber G. wrote: Shame .. A university which produced people Like Har Gobind Khorana, Satish Dhawan (ISRO's ex chairman), and Abdus Salam (BTW, all were later disowned by Islamic Pakistan) is reduced to to a typical Paki place.

Why "shame"? It is good for us, imagine if they continued to produce men of calibre there, it would disaster for India. In their incompetence lies our security.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 21 Apr 2010 23:59

Amber G. wrote:Shame .. A university which produced people like Har Gobind Khorana and Abdus Salam ...

The article says "three nobel laureates". Who's the third?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 22 Apr 2010 00:07

India resigned to ‘holding pattern’ with Pakistan - Siddharth Varadarajan

With the SAARC summit only a week away, and India and Pakistan still unable to agree on talks about talks, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s meeting with his Pakistani counterpart on the sidelines of Thimphu will have the limited but important aim of preventing further deterioration in an already fraught relationship, Indian officials say.

“What we are really looking at is a holding pattern”, a senior official told The Hindu, using the aviation industry phrase for when an aircraft circles around an airport at a fixed altitude awaiting clearance to land. “It is clear that they are not ready to move forward. Nor, quite frankly, are we, until we see some movement on the issues we have raised".
...
...

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 22 Apr 2010 00:14

"Holding pattern" is probably a good thing wrt to TSP, why is being given a negative undertone in the article?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 22 Apr 2010 00:18

From the tone of Siddartha Vardarajan's article, it seems India is more keen. Question is why? And also the disgusting equal equal.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 22 Apr 2010 01:17

CRamS wrote:
1) LET off the table and Mumbai at most a footnote with any trace of TSPA/ISI involvement completely obliterated, 2) Strategic depth in Afganisthan will be allowed, 3) India at best will be a euncuh in Afganisthan to satisfy its H&D and not pull back ignonimously in response to TSP's terror, 4) sophisticated military hardware and humongous economic aid, and 5) India TSP equal equal at the diplomatic level with the ultimate equal equal prize: nuke deal at some point in the not too distant future.

Thus, you can be assured TSP will not rock the boat in the interim, probably giving enough political cover to MMS to make joint love with Pakis in Srinagar after honeymoon in Stockholm, Sweeden.

TSP is winning, and will win big at the denounement of AfPak to live on to fight another day.

CRamS
Actually, the arms race/bail out to rentboy is to bleed India's resources and capabilities, just as sugardaddy did with ussr.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 22 Apr 2010 01:24

Nihat wrote:"Holding pattern" is probably a good thing wrt to TSP, why is being given a negative undertone in the article?

The negative connotation reflects Siddharth Varadarajan's & Chindu's views on this subject (or the views that they have been asked to peddle). If you view his earlier op-ed pieces, the same "lets make love" tone is evident. Its worth repeating that Varadarajan is a U.S citizen - given that & the tone of his articles, one can justifiably question his loyalties.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 Apr 2010 01:47

From the US's POV one 'China' is proving to be a hot potato, one they are finding difficult to handle.

Earlier they labeled a challenger as an enemy, and then went all out against it.
But with China, they just can't do that! Before they realized, the Chinese Trojan was inside fortress America, and is now so intertwined that they can't do a surgical separation without damaging themselves. Besides, true to form the Chinese Dragon is starting to bare his claws.
Remember that the fire spitting-claw baring dragon has the US in a tight embrace, and neither party can let go.

The US is determined not to allow another nation to become another china, and the US be intertwined with it to such an extent as with china. On planet earth, if there is one nation that has the potential to be another china and then tomorrow another US - it is India. In terms of land mass, population, economy none has the potential and the current growth rate to be able to do so. Worse from the US's pov, while there has been some success in maligning the Chinese, India is a holy cow that the US's liberals and intelligentsia simply love.

They love the poverty of India, and they love the little struggles that various GoI's endlessly indulge in to reduce that poverty. They love the idea of a nation with 25 odd different languages, and half a dozen major religions that is a secular democracy. They love the literature that comes out of this country. The old guard at foggy bottom and the pentagon are hard pressed at labeling India as a demon. Thus this realization of late that Pakistan is indispensable as far as a counter weight to India.

I don't necessarily see a counter weight as a liability, it has its uses. If it takes away India's complacency and injects a sense of urgency into India's mission, I think it is a bonus that we should utilize.

To be rid of Pakistan we will need the right leadership and wait for the right opportunity - Pakistan is sure to give us plenty. Therefor there seems to be a sense of urgency amongst the world's powers to give Pakistan a raksha kavach against India that India can't penetrate. Pakistan acquiring N weapons was not an accident, it is the result of an international conspiracy against India that this happened.

Pakistan is here to stay. The more India grows, the more that country will be needed by the world powers to needle India.

JMT.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 22 Apr 2010 02:19

Sanju wrote:A keeper as the Doc says. Thanks!

more like a creeper. Ugh. Any pic of zia gives me the creeps.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 22 Apr 2010 02:22

Pa'astani Army's glorious history (till 1965, BTW,

) can only be defined by the obvious reference to Indian Army history.

http://img405.imageshack.us/i/titlepatill19651.png

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5117 ... l19651.png

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 22 Apr 2010 03:42

anupmisra wrote:
Amber G. wrote:Shame .. A university which produced people like Har Gobind Khorana and Abdus Salam ...
The article says "three nobel laureates". Who's the third?

PU's website, gives Khorana, and Salam ..and search of prize winners lists no one else from PU.

BTW Chandrasekhar was born in Lahore (and has visited PU later when he was famous ...BTW in past -Before 80's - PU wasn't that bad or unfriendly even for Indian visitors)

Kipling's father was principal or something in some college in Lahore (?) so that may be the guy who might have some relationship with PU..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Apr 2010 06:23

Gagan wrote: I don't necessarily see a counter weight as a liability, it has its uses. If it takes away India's complacency and injects a sense of urgency into India's mission, I think it is a bonus that we should utilize.

Golden words Gagan - I was beginning to fear the possibility that Pakistan may disappear allowing Indians to sink into somnolence. Too early for that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Apr 2010 06:31

surinder wrote:
Amber G. wrote: Shame .. A university which produced people Like Har Gobind Khorana, Satish Dhawan (ISRO's ex chairman), and Abdus Salam (BTW, all were later disowned by Islamic Pakistan) is reduced to to a typical Paki place.
Why "shame"? It is good for us, imagine if they continued to produce men of calibre there, it would disaster for India. In their incompetence lies our security.

I noticed a Paki version of Macaulayputra language in the video. University of "the Punjab".

The Brits who discovered that Punjab means five rivers thought in English and decided that it would be an English grammatical error to say "five rivers" without adding the article "the" at the beginning making it "The five rivers" - hence "The Punjab". From an India (or Paqui) standpoint there is no need to say "The Punjab" any more than it is necessary to say the surinder or the shiv. By the "correct English" argument names like trimurti or saptagiri would have to have "the" inserted in front to make them correct. But Macaulay governs the brain that still refers to Punjab as "the Punjab".

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 22 Apr 2010 06:52

Pakistan to impose wedding curfew as power shortages cause civil unrest

Pakistan is expected to announce a series of drastic power-saving measures this week, including a shorter working week and restrictions on wedding celebrations at night, as a severe energy shortfall threatens to set off riots. The blackouts have plagued cities and the countryside for up to 20 hours a day in some places, bringing industry and even farming to a halt.

A genuine question -- how did it worsen so much this year (say when compared to last year)?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 22 Apr 2010 07:22

UN commission’s command performance —Syed Talat Hussain

As expected a lifafa article dissing the UN commission and its report. To jog your memories Syed Talat Hussain is the same guy who was in the center of the Army manufactured controversy about the Kerry Lugar bill, wanted to be "aggressive" with Hillary to build his street cred and got his musharraf kicked by her when she said "Well Pakistan can refuse the money if the conditions are unacceptable". That gem is on youtube somewhere

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 22 Apr 2010 07:36

Who is the Swat Taliban's commander?

With rumors circulating about the Swat Taliban's resurgence in the former tourist destination in Pakistan's northwest, Pashtun journalist Daud Khan Khattak profiles the movement's Swat Valley commander, Maulana Fazlullah

http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts/20 ... _commander

Kamboja · Post by **Kamboja** » 22 Apr 2010 08:20

Gagan wrote: I don't necessarily see a counter weight as a liability, it has its uses. If it takes away India's complacency and injects a sense of urgency into India's mission, I think it is a bonus that we should utilize.

Not that I disagree, but do we really need the thorn of Pakistan in our side when we already have China on our northern borders acting as a constant reminder of our need to develop political/economic/military muscle? OTOH I'd venture to say that self-congratulatory measurements of ourselves against Pakistan has the detrimental effect of distracting us from the threat of the greater powers lurking behind Pakistan... which is of course their very intention.

Just a thought.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 22 Apr 2010 08:26

CRamS wrote:From the tone of Siddartha Vardarajan's article, it seems India is more keen. Question is why?

Simple, CRS. It is the pressure from the US Administration.

GoI, as usual, has only itself to blame. Why did Mr. Man Mohan Singh meet Gilani in SeS and why did he issue that abominable joint statement ? It is being held against us now as we feared, irrespective of the spin and chankyanness attributed to it at that time.

Kamboja · Post by **Kamboja** » 22 Apr 2010 08:31

abhishek_sharma wrote:Who is the Swat Taliban's commander?

http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts/20 ... _commander

FTA:

Like Sufi Muhammad before him, Fazlullah called for social parity, quick justice, the provision of civic facilities, more jobs for Swatis, and the redistribution of property.[xv] The promise of land distribution attracted many followers for Fazlullah's movement in Swat, which started capturing the orchards, farms, and other land of the khans, or local leaders and landowners, who had abandoned the areas from late 2007 to late 2008 after Fazlullah's men carried out several targeted killings against them.

I recall reading that many of those attracted to the TTP in rural areas of NW Pakistan were the landless peasants and serfs, and the landlords were among the first targets of the TTP and the first to leave areas that TTP came to control. Just wondering to what extent Punjab-based militant outfits, including the ones focused on Kashmir, espouse similar land reform/anti-landlord causes. Seems to me that would be an easy avenue to real popularity, power, even revolution, but of course they would then risk losing the backing of their patrons in the PA and government, which represents interests of the landed aristocracy.

I'm wondering if this has already occurred, and if not why -- seems a logical route to power for the militants.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Apr 2010 08:44

WASHINGTON: The Obama administration has refused to mark out India and Pakistan as countries that needed to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, saying instead that since they are “very special friends,” Washington holds daily conversations with them on such issues.
Ellen Tauscher, who as Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security is responsible for the administration’s non-proliferation policies, however, indicated that the United States opposed other nations joining the nuclear club. “The countries that you mentioned are very special friends of the United States. We have conversations with them every day about many different things,” said Secretary Tauscher when asked if Washington would also persuade India and Pakistan to join the NPT.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... or-npt-240

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Apr 2010 08:46

Anujan wrote: A genuine question -- how did it worsen so much this year (say when compared to last year)?

Either the story is all gas, or the reason may be less gas from Baluchistan. Either way do you think the story has something to do with gas? Just ~~gassing~~ guessing.