INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Gagan » 08 Jun 2010 14:23

The RN's new Astute SSNs claim that their sonars are sensitive enough to detect a cruise ship laving NY harbour from UK waters!

:rotfl:
It is achievable in theory, but is practically impossible.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Gagan » 08 Jun 2010 14:27

The seabed array is a project that is implemented far away from prying eyes. I don't think that DDM has the aptitude to inquire into its existence / implementation from GoI.
Who's to say what that statement meant. Perhaps such a one off system as a TD or a test bed is in place and is gathering data and finetuning before fully operational systems are in place around major ports?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Kanson » 08 Jun 2010 22:34

negi wrote:
Kanson wrote:According to the available open source information the expected Sonar for the ATV will be Indian.
Wiki says it is PAYAL . :-?

hmm, is that the only information available as open source ?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Kanson » 08 Jun 2010 22:40

RN's new Astute SSNs claim that their sonars are sensitive enough to detect a cruise ship laving NY harbour from UK waters!
Kochi people too claimed that they could hear a heart beat more than 100m underneath the sea.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Kanson » 08 Jun 2010 23:00

chackojoseph wrote:Did anyone ever say that Arihant is not a TD? Just curious.


Maybe we should start understanding from the fact that did under any military construction around the world a capital ship of the type such as Arihant or even a military class sailable object is termed as TD. My memory is not very perfect on this but i can assure there is no such case in the recent history. OTOH, i willing to hear if any such case exists. Pls note, here, we are using the term TD as the product being constructed only to prove the technology and not for active use. Navy when they constructed for the first time a destroyer they never called her as TD nor when they started constructing their first Aircraft Carrier. So one wonders what parameter was set this ATV apart from rest to be called as TD? I am as curious as you to find out why they(Navy) are making such a gesture.

GSLV that is recently launched by any degree is a TD but ISRO never used this only as TD. Same for Chandrayaan Project.

And on the same token i'm further more curious to know what will be the terminology used for the S2 residing in Kalpakam if the ATV is termed as TD ?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Shalav » 09 Jun 2010 01:02

And this matters - why?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby negi » 09 Jun 2010 01:12

Well at the end of the day will Arihant will be armed with nuke tipped SLBMs ? It cannot get any clearer or unambiguous than that, at least that is what nuclear triad was all about.If it is not armed then it will be a TD for all practical purposes.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Austin » 14 Jun 2010 15:50

SNaik wrote:This depends, Austin. The standard Russian issue of MGK-540 Skat-3 sonar suite which is the sonar on last pr.971 (Akula) subs includes Ajax-M digital library of acoustic signatures. This library may not be included in the transfer, because of the controversy of the sonar on Nerpa - is it Skat-3 or is it MGK-400EM Irbis (upgraded export version of Rubikon from Kilos). Ajax-M certainly is not a part of the upgrade package for Indian Kilos carried out by Sevmash.


SNaik missed this message ,I was thinking these submarines are all digital Akula subs , so they need not add or remove actual hardware but limit the potential of sonar/sensor , signature/noise and other capabilities of submarine ,can be quite easily done with suitable software locks or performance restrictions.

But then we really do not know what is the exact nature of the deal between the two countries , could well be an intelligence sharing arrangement between the two.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Kanson » 16 Jun 2010 07:48

Project 885 Severodvinsk (“Yasen”) class SSN

Propulsion: The class was designed with a “monoblock” reactor; meaning the entire propulsion system (PWR, coolant loops, turbines, generators, coolant pumps) is contained within the reactor compartment. The advantage is the obvious space/weight savings, the disadvantage is that any repairs can only be done in-port with the reactor shut down and the compartment ventilated. The reactor is intended to have a lifespan as long as the submarine’s (about 25 years). Initially, the class was intended to have a PJP but later Russian navy display models show a traditional skewed 7-bladed propeller. Then in early 2010, a drawing showing a PJP again was released. Two small maneuvering thrusters are included.

Weapons: Eight launch tubes for SS-NX-26 Yakhont cruise missiles are carried, each housing three missiles. Some cutaway drawings show them angled (as on the sole “Charlie III” class Novgorod Velikiy) while others vertical. The supersonic, anti-ship SS-NX-26 has a range between 69NM - 161NM depending on the flight profile selected. Early drawings with the spherical sonar array (see “Sensors” section below) showed eight 21” torpedo tubes amidships in the American style. More recent models showed six amidships 21” tubes and two large 650mm tubes atop a cylindrical bow array, but in 2010 a new sketch appeared showing eight 650mm tubes, all amidships. Loadout would be thirty weapons: torpedoes (types SAET-60, UGST, TEST-71ME, and the new type TE-2 if it is actually in fleet service). If 650mm tubes are installed, the SS-N-16 “Stallion” ASW missile could also be supported. Finally several sources state that tubes linered down to 21” could also fire the “Klub” family of missiles, specifically the 3M51 Alfa (Klub-S) land-attack model. The MDS mobile mine will also be carried, as will the MG-74ME tube-fired decoy.

Several defense-industry websites have stated that the Russian navy is working on a “Project Grom (thunder)” strategic cruise missile as an alternate to the endless problems experienced by the SS-NX-30 Bulova SLBM. The stated range for the proposed missile is 2400NM, which would be astonishing for a cruise missile. The Project 885 would likely carry this missile, if it is ever built.

Sensors: Initially this class was to have the Irtysh-Amfora combined spherical/hull/towed array system (as tested in the “Yankee Pod“ SSAN), however later display models show a “Shark Gill” cylindrical array. The “Shark Tail” towed passive array is streamed from the upper rudder, rather than a “bullet” housing (however a 2010 drawing showed the towed array streamed from a fairing on the lower port-side hull). Models have shown a “Pert Spring” SATCOM and two periscopes extended, it can be assumed that a “Snoop”-series radar is included plus most likely the “Amber Light” and “Rim Hat” EW masts, a RDF (likely “Park Lamp”), and Kremmny-2 IFF
.

Interesting inforamtion abt Yasen class...and naturally one try to the see the commonness with ATV.
Livefist Arihant Pic
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 718188.JPG
From the pic, is it possible to say whether it is 650mm or the standard 533mm torpedo tube?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Lisa » 29 Jun 2010 22:30

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... Submarine/

It would be so nice if similar film was made for INS Arihant, just to give one an idea of how far R&D has come.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby VikB » 30 Jun 2010 11:52

"http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/TAUXIto0lwI/AAAAAAAAKh0/Il8lpGHIeXg/s1600/ARIHANT-718188.JPG"

There was lot of speculation on the type, etc of Arihant when it was first launched and no pics were available. With the above pic, are we any wiser? I am sorry I missed the relevant discussion, if it has already taken place ie.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby SRay » 03 Jul 2010 09:19

VikB, check out the discussion from about 6 pages back and extending several pages after that. Quite a bit of analysis, photo manipulation, and whatnot emanated from that pic.


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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby MN Kumar » 30 Jul 2010 07:42

Arihant: the annihilator
By Rear Adm AP Revi
The realization of the need for a nuclear submarine came a little late to India. One would recall the time, when the government was not willing to consider acquiring even a conventional submarine for the purpose of training anti-submarine crews on surface ships. For this purpose, the Navy had to make do with RN submarines during annual Commonwealth exercises. The reason given was that the submarine was an offensive weapon and ours is a defensive navy. Only in the late 1960s a change of mind took place and the first squadron of I641 submarine was inducted into the Navy from the Soviet Union (USSR). After two decades, the HDW submarine from Germany, followed by 877EKM submarines from USSR were also added to the inventory.

The aspirations for a nuclear powered submarine surfaced soon after the Bangladesh war. Presumably, Indira Gandhi, the then Prime Minister, was traumatized by the unexpected entry of the US Aircraft Carrier Task Force into the Bay of Bengal. To counter this move and demonstrate their solidarity with India, Admiral Gorshkov is believed to have ordered one of the Soviet nuclear submarines in the vicinity to surface. This had a salutary effect on the situation. This one single incident demonstrated to the Prime Minister the overbearing significance of a nuclear submarine in the strategic scenario.

The prototype Pressure Water Reactor (PWR) for the submarine became critical inside the submarine pressure hull capsule at Kalpakkum on 11 November 2003 and was declared operational on 22 September 2006.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby RajeshA » 16 Sep 2010 13:40

Some propaganda by Uneven Cohen

Arming Without Aiming: India's Military Modernization Book by Stephen P. Cohen, Sunil Dasgupta

ARMING WITHOUT AIMING: INDIA’S MILITARY MODERNIZATION: Book Launch Event on September 9, 2010 @Brookings Institute (pdf)
Transcript Page 11 wrote:Stephen Cohen: I think it would be disastrous, however, if India squanders its money on that white elephant of a weapons system, the Arihant, which is a seagoing, nuclear-powered, nuclear weapons delivery vessel. The book and my own view is I’m really quite skeptical about the Arihant as a practical weapon. They may make one demonstration model of it, but I doubt if they’ll go beyond that.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby P Chitkara » 16 Sep 2010 14:39

I find those remarks quiet funny. Why would we invest so much time and money -- to build a demonstrator? naah...

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Pratyush » 16 Sep 2010 15:10

^^^^ OK, even if Uneven is correct that the Arihant is a TD and a one off class. Big Deal, if it allows india to learn from her and build a new and better submarine. Then, it is money well spent. White elephant or not.

Opinions are like body parts every one has them.

JMT.

Ps has any one any idea why the Arihant is a White Elephant. in his mind.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby chackojoseph » 16 Sep 2010 15:45

^^^ If you follow the past news, INS Viraat and INS Vikrant have been called white elephants. Now, new whip boys are Arihants and Vikramaditya. Don't ask for reasoning, cause there isn't one.

Added later...

The guy is telling us the reverse of what is already happening.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby P Chitkara » 16 Sep 2010 16:44

I guess that is intended more for media consumption and creating perceptions than anything else.

They wouldn’t really like us to join the exclusive club, would they?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby parshuram » 16 Sep 2010 16:55

If he don't write such things who will spend money on his book :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby ravi_s » 16 Sep 2010 16:55

Are you Pankaj Chitkara?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Christopher Sidor » 16 Sep 2010 17:08

RajeshA wrote:Some propaganda by Uneven Cohen

Arming Without Aiming: India's Military Modernization Book by Stephen P. Cohen, Sunil Dasgupta

ARMING WITHOUT AIMING: INDIA’S MILITARY MODERNIZATION: Book Launch Event on September 9, 2010 @Brookings Institute (pdf)
Transcript Page 11 wrote:Stephen Cohen: I think it would be disastrous, however, if India squanders its money on that white elephant of a weapons system, the Arihant, which is a seagoing, nuclear-powered, nuclear weapons delivery vessel. The book and my own view is I’m really quite skeptical about the Arihant as a practical weapon. They may make one demonstration model of it, but I doubt if they’ll go beyond that.


You should realize Cohen is seeing us with american eyes. In American Eyes they have one of the finest defense procurement systems. Though some people in america claim, that the defense procurement is broken, due to cost overruns, delay in getting projects completed on time, project scope creep, etc, it is still considered by and large by everybody in america that is one of the better procurement systems.
But they miss the most important point. We are competing with China and India. Our procurement policies and procedures should be compared with those of pakistan and china. They should be compared with how effective our defense procurement policies are as compared to those of Chinese. We are not competing with America and our system and american systems are different.

Coming back to the point of Arihant, they do doubt its efficacy. But Arihant is a test bed. A test bed on which are future SSBN/SSGN/SSN submarines will be built. Sort of an experimental lab. There are rumors that India is going to build 2-3 more nuclear submarines. The success of these submarines will depend on how arihant performs and the ability of our nuclear mining industry to get domestic sources of uranium.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby P Chitkara » 16 Sep 2010 17:11

ravi_s wrote:Are you Pankaj Chitkara?

Yes, and you Ravi from AS?

About Arihant being test bed, yes it may very well be the case. But, one can state with a certain degree of certainty that there will be follow ons with refinements learnt form the first example.

Mankind did'nt reach the moon on the very first rocket that was made :)
Last edited by P Chitkara on 16 Sep 2010 17:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby D Roy » 16 Sep 2010 17:12

Bhaiyon aur Baihnon,



The Navy will need three or four nuclear-powered submarines for this arm to be a viable force. Will you build more LWRs for these submarines?

We are already doing that. I will not be able to tell you the number, but it is a fact that we are in that game. The next nuclear steam generating plants are getting ready for future applications.



http://hindu.com/2010/09/06/stories/201 ... 051300.htm

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Dilbu » 16 Sep 2010 17:14

P Chitkara wrote:
ravi_s wrote:Are you Pankaj Chitkara?

Yes, and you Ravi from AS?

Are both of you paanwalas? :D

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby P Chitkara » 16 Sep 2010 17:19

Dilbu wrote:Are both of you paanwalas? :D


No, dont even know a paanwala :(( Wish I did...

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Philip » 16 Sep 2010 17:47

Cohen an his ilk,cannot stomach an independent India that can build and operate nuclear subs.They have the Paki mndest that "one Yanqui is the equal of 10 njuns"! In fact this is a rampant disease in the US defence mndset.I have studied several US defence publications,where there is none or little comment about he sgnificance of Brahmos,while several oher international and western missiles of inferior capability are well featued. The Chinese ABM carrier-killer is often discussed eeven though here has yet to be a single test of this great Chinese firecracker,wheras Brahmos has been tested many a time and the hypersonc version is being developed too!

That is why it is important to study the likes of Cohen and co.who reveal the US establishment's bigotry,idiocy and duplicity,as they laud their Paki counterparts time and time again while trying to demean India's achievements.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby P Chitkara » 16 Sep 2010 18:11

It actually betrays a cold war mindset of looking at other countries. Looks like he is yet to overcome it.

BTW, any idea/speculation on the displacement of follow on subs? Also, are there any plans SSK heard of?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby uddu » 16 Sep 2010 18:58

It seems the person is just parroting the U.S view on the subject or the view that he thinks should be that of the U.S. Nothing to do with book sales etc.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE6-1/Cohen.html
White elephant. :rotfl: So sad that being an expert on India he did not know that Airawats are really good and shows the wealth and power of a nation. poor guy.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Singha » 16 Sep 2010 21:35

my prediction - the goras are past experts at moving the goalpost just on the verge of someone scoring a goal.
1."india cannot be a great power without settling cashere"
2. "india may have sent a orbiter to moon but 750 mil yindu live on less than $1 a day"
3. 300,000 ROP genocided in gujarat, how can india be considered a secular democracy
4. india may have a bulging middle class but they do not enjoy the urban services of um berlin or osaka due to korrupt govt
5. indians do not contribute billions to alumni institutions => indians are cruel and uncaring
6. yindu has only small bums, china has bigger and more bums

now to add for 2015
7. india has a 1000km GLCM but yindu bum is weak
8. indian lacks own GPS sats
9. indians are *still* short, dark, rice eating and pray in dark, moist temples :D
10. indian A5 cannot put 10 mirv on target (onlee 5). hence A5 < DF31B & india < cheena < usa
11. india doesnt have 'instant strike' hypersonic stealth weapons to raze terrorist goat sheds within 30mins of POTUS pressing the green button
12. india doesnt GUBO, GUBO is doctor recommended for intestinal health
13. Arihant can only do 23 knots submerged while virginia can do 35, hence arihant is a white elephant and yindu cruelty to deprive the poor of their schools/hospitals/meals.

the way to upset this game is
[a] develop our own forums, blogs, media management - the internet is facilitating that
[b] release a loud fart in the direction of these psyops operators.
[c] keep doing the good work.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby ManuJ » 16 Sep 2010 22:11



That's a wonderful interview. Lot of information:

Has the Light Water Reactor (LWR), using enriched uranium as fuel, on board the submarine been started up?

Our nuclear steam supply system is ready 100 per cent. From our (DAE) side, everything is ready. We are only waiting for other systems to become operational so that we can start the commissioning activity of the reactor. I really do not know when the harbour trials will be done.


Where will the enriched uranium for these boats come from? There is only one Rare Materials Plant at Ratnahalli, near Mysore, to produce enriched uranium. Will the proposed Special Material Enrichment Facility in Chitradurga district in Karnataka be helpful?

Chitradurga will come a little later, not immediately. Our Ratnahalli plant capacity has been enhanced. But more than that, there is significant improvement in our technology. Usually, a term called Separating Work Units (SWUs) defines the technology level that we have achieved in this, and I can assure you that there has been considerable improvement in SWUs of our next generation caskets of centrifuges. The separating capacity of our centrifuges has improved. So total capacity enhancement at Ratnahalli has been done. We are confident of supplying the entire fuel for the set of….

You cannot say anymore that India does not have enrichment technology. India has its own technology and we can produce [enriched uranium]. We have not started doing it for large-scale commercial nuclear power stations, which require a much larger quantity of enriched uranium. We will be able to do that once we go to Chitradurga.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby dinesha » 16 Sep 2010 22:54

OT:
As far as India’s strategic R&D is concerned, Chitradurga distt. is going to be place of action in few years time. Four Major activities there:
1. DRDO has acquired 4,290 acres for an advanced R&D complex, a 3.5 km runway and test centre for long-endurance ( 48-72 hours) UAVs and UCAVs
2. BARC has acquired 2000 acres for "Special Material Enrichment Facility".
3. IISc has acquired 1700 acres to develop Energy Research Centre and Advanced Aerospace Research Centre, whatever that means..
4. Indian Army is seeking 10000 acres to establish some “top secret facility” and also to station a Brigade there

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Singha » 16 Sep 2010 23:07

keep a sharp eye for 'dalit' and EJ activitism to try and make inroads there.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Kersi D » 16 Sep 2010 23:34

dinesha wrote:OT:
As far as India’s strategic R&D is concerned, Chitradurga distt. is going to be place of action in few years time. Four Major activities there:
1. DRDO has acquired 4,290 acres for an advanced R&D complex, a 3.5 km runway and test centre for long-endurance ( 48-72 hours) UAVs and UCAVs
2. BARC has acquired 2000 acres for "Special Material Enrichment Facility".
3. IISc has acquired 1700 acres to develop Energy Research Centre and Advanced Aerospace Research Centre, whatever that means..
4. Indian Army is seeking 10000 acres to establish some “top secret facility” and also to station a Brigade there


Where is Chitradurga ? Sound it is somewhere in South India. Any coordinates please ?

K


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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby putnanja » 16 Sep 2010 23:39

Kersi D wrote:
Where is Chitradurga ? Sound it is somewhere in South India. Any coordinates please ?

K


Chitradurga is in central Karnataka. Check out this map

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby shambu » 16 Sep 2010 23:41

14.23°N 76.4°E

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby Kersi D » 16 Sep 2010 23:46

Singha wrote:my prediction - the goras are past experts at moving the goalpost just on the verge of someone scoring a goal.
1."india cannot be a great power without settling cashere"
2. "india may have sent a orbiter to moon but 750 mil yindu live on less than $1 a day"
3. 300,000 ROP genocided in gujarat, how can india be considered a secular democracy
4. india may have a bulging middle class but they do not enjoy the urban services of um berlin or osaka due to korrupt govt
5. indians do not contribute billions to alumni institutions => indians are cruel and uncaring
6. yindu has only small bums, china has bigger and more bums

now to add for 2015
7. india has a 1000km GLCM but yindu bum is weak
8. indian lacks own GPS sats
9. indians are *still* short, dark, rice eating and pray in dark, moist temples :D
10. indian A5 cannot put 10 mirv on target (onlee 5). hence A5 < DF31B & india < cheena < usa
11. india doesnt have 'instant strike' hypersonic stealth weapons to raze terrorist goat sheds within 30mins of POTUS pressing the green button
12. india doesnt GUBO, GUBO is doctor recommended for intestinal health
13. Arihant can only do 23 knots submerged while virginia can do 35, hence arihant is a white elephant and yindu cruelty to deprive the poor of their schools/hospitals/meals.

the way to upset this game is
[a] develop our own forums, blogs, media management - the internet is facilitating that
[b] release a loud fart in the direction of these psyops operators.
[c] keep doing the good work.


One nice way is to grab their jobs !!!

K

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby vic » 17 Sep 2010 00:22

My guesses:-

dinesha wrote:OT:

As far as India’s strategic R&D is concerned, Chitradurga distt. is going to be place of action in few years time. Four Major activities there:

1. DRDO has acquired 4,290 acres for an advanced R&D complex, a 3.5 km runway and test centre for long-endurance ( 48-72 hours) UAVs and UCAVs- No guess required

2. BARC has acquired 2000 acres for "Special Material Enrichment Facility". No guess required


3. IISc has acquired 1700 acres to develop Energy Research Centre and Advanced Aerospace Research Centre, whatever that means.. I think it should be things like Kali, Durga, Avtaar etc

4. Indian Army is seeking 10000 acres to establish some “top secret facility” and also to station a Brigade thereNuclear missiles ?


It seems a lot of area but it is only around 9x9 km or so !

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Postby ramana » 17 Sep 2010 01:27

What I see from interview is that SMEF is an advanced and more efficient fuel enrichment facility for power reactors.


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