Design your own fighter

[Victor]

I suspect that simply jamming all the goodies into the available space won't work . For eg. will the 20mm cannon have any effect on the rangefinder if it is a few inches away when it fires? At the short distances and heights involved in this type of engagement, will Litening be effective? So why not make them attachable pods? Introduces a lot of flexibility without overengineering and overloading the basic plane.

Now let's freeze the specs and put a project manager in charge, not an engineer or heaven forbid, a babu armed with a calculator.

[shiv]

Now let's freeze the specs and put a project manager in charge, not an engineer or heaven forbid, a babu armed with a calculator.

Well assuming 2 Adours, the plane will be larger than a Hawk but smaller than an Su-25 Frogfoot.

While I am no expert - clearly there are certain trade offs. More fuel versus more payload. As long as that trade off is made on the wings - i.e external tanks versus munitions there can be flexibility. Than means internal space in the fuselage can be reserved for a mix of avionics and fuel. The reason I am talking of avionics goes back the Abhibhushan's post which mentions both terrain following and DARIN III. It was the DARIN upgrades that imporved the Jaguar's weapons delivery accuracy. That post also mentions three things:

1) Take off from Leh - (3500 meters altitude) with at least 1500 kg payload
2) Ability to work at Along, Arunachal Pradesh - 300 meters above sea level
3) Gerat performance at 20,000 feet - (because the ground is often at 18.000 feet)

I see a DARIN type avionics suite as important because interdiction may mean cutting off enemy logistics lines at crucial chokepoints. The could mean taking out bridges over rivers in a deep mountain valley. (Will provide an image for illustration later) A single pass dropping one 1000 kg (or twin 500 kg) laser guided bombs on a bridge should be able to take it out. Literally 5 minutes over the target area. In and out.

The wings must be optimised for lift rather than high speed performance. That is the other tradeoff. A low wing loading (I think) should ensure better high altitude performance.

[SaiK]

We need to design our own long range bomber/fighter/HCA.

[vardhank]

How large is the Adour? Can we move the intakes further back, over the wing? (Actually, I might be barking here - would it actually help protect the engines from dust and stones, etc?) And sorry for asking for constant changes Victor but should there be a bubble-style bulging canopy, again for better downward visibility? You'd definitely need very thick, strong glass/perspex/whatevertheyuse.
Also, how does one go about adding armour? Would you have to thicken the skin overall, or would you have add-on armour plates at certain points? I don't know much about the Kiran's structure, either: is it possible to have a fairly thick-gauge metal skin on the underbody, wings and engine nacelles, with composites used everywhere else?
Going back to wing design, how do you mate good stability (bomb-dropping, strafing) with excellent roll and yaw rates? Does anhedral even work on low-wing aircraft?

[shiv]

The "overwing engine" demand of the A-10 was primarily because the A-10 was essentially built around the Gatling cannon. In this case there are several reasons for not building it around a similar cannon - not least the fact that such a cannon does not exist in India and the demand in this thread is to build with what is already here. The A-10 was designed to operate at 1000-1500 meters above ground where it could batter the crap out of the opposition with that awesome cannon an the 1000 plus rounds carried by the A-10. At such low levels there is the additional hazard of ingestion of debris - but I really do think the cannon fumes was what the US was looking at when they put the engine where they did.

I think we are looking for something that will be agile in the mountains and the requirement for debris and FB ingestion may not be that acute.

[vic]

My Take, we must enlarge/modify the present lines rather than design new aircrafts:-


1. HJT-36 ->to be enlarged into AJT and CAS aircraft usng derated Kaveri engine


2. LCA Mark 1 -> Mark 2 with GE 414 -> There should be Mark 3 in something like MAKO form using Kaveri JV engine


3. LCA Mark1 -> with present Kaveri engine as LIFT/CAS to supplement heavy HJT-36


4. LCA Mark-1-> wit present Kaveri engine modified to UCAV

5. AMCA using 2 Kaveri JV engines -> AMCA using 2 present Kaveri engines as CAS aircraft


If we looking at aircraft that can attack ground targets at 18,000 feet while avoiding Manpads then mud movers like A-10/Su-25 may not be suitable and HJT-LCA-AMCA type aircrafts will have to be used. A-10/Su-25 were conceived in cold war to attack tanks in central europe, sea level basically, using cannons, which is not a scenario which fits indian requirements

6. HTT-40-> modified for CAS role-> Two engined development of HTT-40 for specifically for forward/CAS role

7. Saras/RTA->evolved and developed for light bomber in CAS role, something like Canberra

8. MRTA-> developed into Heavy bomber for Indian conditions for scorched earth policy


By the way why are we forgetting Rustom CAS can be done by UCAVs also and as there is no particular need for Stealth therefore why wait for stealth UCAV, so:-


9. Rustom H-> Rustom turboprop powered MTOW 5 tons -> Rustom AL-55 turbfan powered MTOW 10 tons and then -> Rustom turbofan modified / derated present Kaveri MTOW 15 tons

I agree with Shiv that CAT would have been the best solution but then >>>>>>>>>

[vardhank]

Victor, Shiv,
Mind if I go off-track a bit?
Can someone come up with projected specs and an illustration of a two-engined LCA? I think it could make a very good gen 4+ MMRCA, good enough to take on the current MMRCA contenders.
To keep things simple, you'd use the same wings, same avionics and probably the same GE 414 engines (or two R25s, if we want to be stringent about the made-in-India idea, though it's probably not the best idea for this sort of plane).
You can either go for a narrow-fuselage design like the Rafale/Typhoon, or (my preference), a wide, lifting body like the Russians. Two vertical stabs, maybe canards if needed.
Can someone project weights, payload, range, number of hard points, etc?
The sticking point is probably the radar, but I expect it'll use whatever the LCA finally ends up using.
Also, how long do you estimate it would take to make this?

[vardhank]

Forgot a couple of things...
1) two-seater for sure
2) might need to elongate the fuselage a little... otherwise it would be very wide and stubby, which i imagine would affect stability, yes? (pulling this out of ze musharraf, no clue if that actually affects things)

[shiv]

Another approach here could be to use the Marut as our base fighter and move ahead from there...
A few things that, in my view, that needs to be done to give the Marut a modern day make over are:
1) Airframe- Introduce composites in the structure and strengthen the airframe to add more hard point
Also tweak the design for good transonic handling.
2) Re-engine- Strap 2 Adours from the Jaguars in place of the Orpheus engines or we could use a single Kaveri, if available.
3) Sensor Package- Fix the entire set of sensors that were installed on the upgraded MiG 27. This should enable the platform to be PGM Capable(i guess).

I LIKE the idea.

[ShivaS]

Guys Design is fine, but what about who, How and where to(locate suppliers) build. Identify the infrastructure that exists who can do this. Its not going to be one entity but like " United Technologies".

I will post my thoughts with names of existing industries that can do it in India.

[Bala Vignesh]

Ah yes.. the logistics of building the fighter..

No work should be given to any PSU as they are all busy with their own projects and this should be seen as a test of the Private industries in helping us build the required strength with quality and gain the trust of the Forces. And all parties here must be involved in every stage of the program.

Seeing that the HAL is pretty busy with all the other projects they have, the airframe construction and the final integration of the aircraft should be handed over to private industry, say TAAL.
Whatever they cannot manufacture, we simply give it to others who can manufacture it, like L&T or Aditya Birla group, even to Reliance, if we must.

The integration test and all such studies to be carried can be done by NAL, with of course the help of DRDO. If need be, we can set up a joint liaison office between them.

These are, of course, broad-strokes. Please feel free to fine tune these.

[Gaur]

^^
There is only one problem. Shiv Sir's requirement is that everything (from screws to engine) should be indigenous and the time frame of induction should be a couple of years. And considering the current expertise of private sector, it would be a tremendous achievement if they could even develop a CESSNA 172 equivalent in that time frame.

While I agree that the private industry needs to be given more opportunities in Defence Sector, it can only be a gradual process. This is because the experience and expertise of private sector at presence is zilch. Even if HAL was to provide them with all their know how, it would take them decades to grasp it all. Decades of experience in manufacturing, research and even failures cannot be just handed down to private sector in a couple of years. At the moment, designing and manufacturing even a 2nd gen fighter jet may prove too much of a task for them.

[Bala Vignesh]

Gaur sir,
The requirement is not that everything from screws to engines needs to be indigenous, but rather we should be able to manufacture everything required in India, no matter from wherever they are.
Seeing as this is the requirement. We can have 2 years spent on studying and absorbing the technologies involved by the private industries(for industries that can manufacture pressure hulls for submarines this should not be tough,i guess).
And also as a side note, TAAL is involved in manufacturing of Hansa trainers, IJT sitara, and parts of GSLV. So i believe that the required expertise does exist in the industry.
The only problem that i foresee is the manufacturing of the engine, i.e can HAL koraput deliver the required engines with the required quality specs...

[Gaur]

^^
Perhaps my choice of word "indigenous" was misleading. I too did not mean that the parts (like engine) should be developed from scratch in India. My meaning was that we should be able to manufacture everything without any outside help even in the face of sanctions. I guess that is the basis on which the fighter designs are being discussed in this thread?

Now, as you said, the engines are certainly a problem. IMVHO, even HAL will find it difficult to reverse engineer Adour (which seems to be preferred choice here) in a couple of years. Building under license (or even under TOT) is not the same as manufacturing the whole thing without any outside help (as AL-31FP TOT indicates).
The only hope is that Kaveri does not suffer any further hiccups and is available in near future.

But even with the engine problem solved, what about aerodynamics? Does the private industry has enough expertise to even modify an existing design (like Marut)? What about materials? What about stress studies? What about radar, avionics, data link etc? I do not think that even mentoring provided by HAL will do any good. To be frank, my opinion of private sector is that they will greatly struggle to even assemble a fighter aircraft by themselves. This is by no fault of theirs. They simply do not have the experience.
Again, all this is IMHO. I may have much greater confidence in private sector's capabilities in aerospace. I just personally do not share that confidence.

Also, while I do not doubt the accuracy of your stated involvement of Tata aerospace in the projects you mentioned, I am not able to find any specific details (like simple information regarding the parts manufactured). The information on Tata's own website was very vague. If you have any details, could you please post it?

PS: There is really no need for "Sir".

[Bala Vignesh]

Gaurji,
The company i had mentioned was the Taneja Aerospace and aviation ltd,Bangalore. They carry out the following work:
1. Manufacture of the P68C, a six seat twin piston-engine aircraft. All detailed parts and assemblies including seats, electrical looming, cable assemblies etc. were manufactured at TAAL's facilities.
2. TAAL was involved in building up the first three prototypes of the 14 seat, SARAS aircraft for the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL). TAAL has manufactured the entire airframe of the aircraft (excluding the wings which are manufactured by HAL) including tooling, parts and assembly. The first prototype is now under flight-testing.
3. TAAL was associated with the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) for the production of the two-seat all composite (glass fiber) trainer aircraft called the “HANSA”.
4. TAAL is manufacturing the airframes for the full composite (carbon and glass -wet lay up and room temperature cured) NISHANT, Remote Pilotless Vehicle developed by the Aeronautical Defense Establishment (ADE).
5. TAAL is manufacturing all the composite components (Tail cone, Nose cone and air-intake) for the LAKSHYA, Pilotless Target Aircraft (PTA). This aircraft is now in series production.
6. TAAL is manufacturing the Elevator and Stabilizer for the Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) manufactured by HAL.
7. TAAL is manufacturing a variety of aircraft tooling (bakelite), Sheet Metal Parts etc., for the Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH); Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Light Combat Helicopter ( LCH);Sukhoi (SU-30 ) & MIG Series projects of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited ( HAL).
8. TAAL is manufacturing Auxiliary Fuel tank, stretcher, Armour Panel and interiors for Advanced Light Helicopters of HAL and also interiors for Defence Service Helicopter.
9. Parts for Jaguar Drop tanks and Incendiary Containers.
10. TAAL is doing space structures for PSLV and GSLV of Indian Space Research Organization
(ISRO).
11. Manufacture of THORP T211 Two Seater aircraft for Domestic and Export Markets.
12. In the past TAAL has undertaken certain sub-contract work for the Israel Aircraft Industries (ISI) in India.
13. Number of Modifications and Installations on Indian Navy Helicopters and Aircraft.
14. Interiors for Indian Air force Aircraft.

But even with the engine problem solved, what about aerodynamics? Does the private industry has enough expertise to even modify an existing design (like Marut)? What about materials? What about stress studies? What about radar, avionics, data link etc? I do not think that even mentoring provided by HAL will do any good. To be frank, my opinion of private sector is that they will greatly struggle to even assemble a fighter aircraft by themselves. This is by no fault of theirs. They simply do not have the experience.

For this i had proposed this

The integration test and all such studies to be carried can be done by NAL, with of course the help of DRDO. If need be, we can set up a joint liaison office between them.

About the engines, I am assuming, well its hoping actually, that since HAL has been producing the Jaguar for over 31 years now, they would have reverse-engineered some, if not all, aspects of the engine. And if push comes to shove we can ask Rolls Royce to sell us the design and manufacture it then.

[Gaur]

^^
Thanks for the information. That is quite a list! It seems that I was wrong and private sector does have some manufacturing capabilities. But, given an opportunity, can they also research, experiment and design? To be honest, I am even now skeptical regarding that. However, the skepticism of one pessimistic jingo does not matter. I do hope that private sector is much more capable than I give them credit for.

[bmallick]

Guru's I have a question regarding the usage of Adour. Since we had been making it under license, is there a cap on the numbers we can make. Do we pay a fixed amount and make as many as we can or do we pay a royalty on every engine that we make. Also if we need to make any modifications how do we get permissions for the same. With regards to clearances of modification and certifications etc, since we would be using the engines ourselves would it be mandatory for us to get a certification from a reputed agency.

Also Shiv sir, one more engine that I think we have gotten the license for is the new Al-55I, of course its thrust is not in the league as the Adour, but if our weight requirements are not too high then maybe we can use to Al-55I.

[shiv]

one more engine that I think we have gotten the license for is the new Al-55I, of course its thrust is not in the league as the Adour, but if our weight requirements are not too high then maybe we can use to Al-55I.

You know why I think Adour or R 25 may be a better choice than Al 55. Simply because Indian industry has had a much longer time to work on those engines and come up with components in house. I don't know the import content of either Adour or R 25 but I am guessing that we should be able to duck sanctions if we decided to make them. I think Al 55 is too "fresh" for that - the agreement was signed pretty recently. Actually the Orpheus, that powers the Kiran is probably made by India alone - I doubt if the original company still makes them.

As far as I know - with engines not all parts are made in house. Some components are simply better imported because a manufacturing line exists for them to be made cheap in the country of origin. It would make manufacture of those parts too expensive to start a production line here. That is where "age" is to our advantage.

[Bala Vignesh]

Got a general doubt... Should we go ahead and hypothesize on the results of the various integration tests, aerodynamics tests and many other such tests that a developmental aircraft needs to go through???

[Drishyaman]

Another approach here could be to use the Marut as our base fighter and move ahead from there...
A few things that, in my view, that needs to be done to give the Marut a modern day make over are:
1) Airframe- Introduce composites in the structure and strengthen the airframe to add more hard point
Also tweak the design for good transonic handling.
2) Re-engine- Strap 2 Adours from the Jaguars in place of the Orpheus engines or we could use a single Kaveri, if available.
3) Sensor Package- Fix the entire set of sensors that were installed on the upgraded MiG 27. This should enable the platform to be PGM Capable(i guess).

With so many changes (> 90 %) would you still like to call it a Marut ? Why not take a new pencil and fresh piece of paper ?
But, before that could you please define the requirement?

[nachiket]

B_Ambuj, the requirement is of a light, single-seat strike aircraft which can perform well in the mountainous regions and which can be designed and manufactured completely in India with the current level of technical knowhow available in the country. This has been discussed in the thread earlier.

[Bala Vignesh]

With so many changes (> 90 %) would you still like to call it a Marut ? Why not take a new pencil and fresh piece of paper ?
But, before that could you please define the requirement?

Ambuj sir,
The name is of little significance here. The reason i proposed the idea was that most of the components required for the basic marut and all the changes proposed here can be done using technology available in house and is relatively sanction-proof.

The requirements are as follows:

I must thank the good doctor for prescribing just what an old fighter jock would love. While all of you go all out to design a 5th gen ++ super duper fighter, I want to take a detour and come up with some thing that my pongo friends would love to see in the sky.
There is one huge battlefield that might one day call me in for offensive air support which I am unable to provide today. I need an aircraft that can operate over Wallong and Along and perhaps a hundred kilometres north of it for releasing weapons in marginal visibility and if possible even by night. I need an aircraft that will take off from Leh or Chshul with one and a half tons of ordnance and be able to operate comfortably with full load at 20000 feet or more. I want an aircraft that can have a radius of action of 200 km flying at 15000 feet above sea level.
Let me now design this beast.
Take a basic Kiran. Retain the wings/tail. Build it as light as possible using composites. Redesign the main body for a single pilot and lots of internal fuel. Give it an internal bay for carrying about 50 x 68mm or 57mm unguided rockets and four hard points fit for 350 kg class loads. Give it a light contour mapping / imaging radar slaved to an HMS. Replace the 2 machine guns of the Kiran Mk 2 with one GSh23. Give it a glass cockpit and a DARIN III fit. Give it an integral laser target designator. Power it with an unreheated Adour (as used in the Hawk). Play around with the wing structure a little to improve its low speed turning performance. See if the RCS can be reduced by tinkering with the intakes. If possible, give it one or two short range light air to air missiles carried over the wing like the Jaguar. Give it a self defence electronic suit. If the Adour is unable to lift all this load then make it really an overpowered beast by fitting an unreheated Kavery!
Produce it in 36 months. Test and certify it in the next 24 months. Produce it in large numbers. In 1962, we could not / did not use offensive air power. Let there not be a repeat of that situation.
PS. I do not foresee a dense air defence air presence in the projected hostile area. If one comes along, I shall need top cover by the air dominance fighters you all are designing.

Another spin-off that can be had here is the E/A-6B like dedicated ESW/ELINT bird.

[Drishyaman]

May be we should design an Aircraft with the following specification:
1. Delta Winged some what shaped like the Vulcan,
2. With 4 Kaveri Engine.
3. Air frame and Fuselage made of Titanium and composite.
4. Skin made of Russian RAM.
5. AESA Radar.
6. Capable of carrying 10 Brahmos, 10 Nirbhay and 10 Astra concealed within the fuselage and wings.
7. Huge Internal fuel carrying capacity.

Tactics should be that this Aircraft should not venture any where near 200 km of our friendly International Border. It should only fly from Mumbai to Delhi and Delhi to Kolkata.

[Bala Vignesh]

self delete

[shiv]

^^ Mr. Ambuj,
Could you point out the necessity of the sarcastic post above??

Ah the super intelligent, super funny desi. He will dig a grave for himself sooner or later. The really funny bit will be pushing him into it.

[Drishyaman]

^^ Mr. Ambuj,
Could you point out the necessity of the sarcastic post above??

Sir, I didn't make a sarcastic remark here. Probably, you got it wrong. I said this might be a requirement for us.

[Drishyaman]

About the engines, I am assuming, well its hoping actually, that since HAL has been producing the Jaguar for over 31 years now, they would have reverse-engineered some, if not all, aspects of the engine. And if push comes to shove we can ask Rolls Royce to sell us the design and manufacture it then.

I am not sure rather I don't have any information on how much of Reverse-Engineering HAL has done on Adour Engine. If HAL was able to do this, probably they can do the same with the Su-30 engine as well.

[Drishyaman]

B_Ambuj, the requirement is of a light, single-seat strike aircraft which can perform well in the mountainous regions and which can be designed and manufactured completely in India with the current level of technical knowhow available in the country. This has been discussed in the thread earlier.

This Requirement some what matches that of the CAT which was planned earlier. BAE Hawk Mk132 probably killed it.
CAT needs to be Resurrected.

[shiv]

Forgot a couple of things...
1) two-seater for sure
2) might need to elongate the fuselage a little... otherwise it would be very wide and stubby, which i imagine would affect stability, yes? (pulling this out of ze musharraf, no clue if that actually affects things)

Why a two seater? If we are looking at a primary requirement of a modern day "COIN" aircraft and interdictor/forward air support which has great performance at 20,000 feet as well as the ability to take off with a useful load from Leh, I would have thought that the weight and space requirement of a second pilot would only be a burden rather than an advantage.

But it appears to me that many such aircraft in the past have been developed from trainers and hence were two seat by default. Looking back at similar aircraft (apart from the proposed Indian CAT) I am able to recall the BAC Strikemaster (a development of The Hunting Jet Provost - used by Sri Lanka). The Strikemaster was 2 seat and had a max weight of about 5 tons.

The French Fouga Magister was used as a combat aircraft by Israel. It was a 2 seat trainer that was about 3 tons max.

The Cessna T 37 (operated by Bangladesh and Pakistan) appear to be trainers with a secondary combat role - just like the Kiran could be used I guess. The Cessna was 3 tons and Kiran 4 tons.

The BAe Hawk 200 is a single seat development of the Hawk trainer described as a "lightweight multirole combat fighter with emphasis on air defence, air superiority, anti-shipping, air-denial, long-range interdiction, short-range close air support and ground attack." and this is the sort of thing that comes to my mind. But the air combat capability as a primary requirement may be unnecessary.

The Hawk is 9 tons Max. I suspect the Indian Hawk can be used in this role too, but that takes the fun out of designing a jingo fighter with what we have now. The Hawk has a single Adour and it strikes me that if we use 2 Adours we will have a much bigger aircraft. Are we looking at an aircraft with a normal loaded weight of 10 tons? Much bigger than your average trainer.

I am not sure how the trade off between the inertia of higher mass and higher engine power is when it comes to maneuvering between mountaintops at high altitude. Obviously bigger wings and lower wing loading would make a difference. This is the sort of thing I would experiment with by making plane models and leave the calculation to people who have learned maths beyond 12 times tables.

[Victor]

What we have arrived at with the JF1 so far is basically a Hawk 200 in Indian clothes that may have better low-speed handling due to the straight wings.

[shiv]

What we have arrived at with the JF1 so far is basically a Hawk 200 in Indian clothes that may have better low-speed handling due to the straight wings.

Victor apart from having a long history of aviation design the Brits have a keen eye for business. Only that can explain the Hawk 200 designed in an era when others were making the F-22 or the Rafale/Eurofighter.

I suspect a plane of the JF-1 class would be unique - but I don't know enough about aerodynamics at high altitude yet. But that will not stop this jingo from finding out!!

[bmallick]

I am not sure how the trade off between the inertia of higher mass and higher engine power is when it comes to maneuvering between mountaintops at high altitude. Obviously bigger wings and lower wing loading would make a difference. This is the sort of thing I would experiment with by making plane models and leave the calculation to people who have learned maths beyond 12 times tables.

Shiv sir, the higher inertia is the reason why I had suggested earlier in the thread to have the two engines in the middle of the aircraft body, like the Buccaneer. This would mean that most of the heavy thing of the aircraft is in the center, thus reducing inertia. Such an arrangement would also mean that we can have one more fuel tank in the part of the aircraft section projecting aft of the engines. Also something that comes of the hat, and here I am speculating quite a bit, that we can extend the wing roots such that the jet exhaust is shielded from direct view from below, maybe that would provide some protection from manpads.

[ShivaS]

Here is how I would implement your designs with these implements.
I)
Classification of the sub assemblies (engineering orientation wise)
Engine not included in the first cut. Frame fabrication also not included.
Engine I would go back to HJE2500 design for simplicity.

II)
Mechanical (Hydraulic, Pneumatic, Manufacturing etc)
Electrical (prime movers, generators, power supplies, wiring harnesses)
Electronics (Communication, RADAR, Signalling)
Instrumentation ( Electro-Mechanical in nature)
Software (PLC and control circuits for instrumentation).
Next step would be identifying existing companies and leveraging their experience, module by module)

[shiv]

Here is how I would implement your designs with these implements.
I)
Classification of the sub assemblies (engineering orientation wise)
Engine not included in the first cut. Frame fabrication also not included.
Engine I would go back to HJE2500 design for simplicity.

II)
Mechanical (Hydraulic, Pneumatic, Manufacturing etc)
Electrical (prime movers, generators, power supplies, wiring harnesses)
Electronics (Communication, RADAR, Signalling)
Instrumentation ( Electro-Mechanical in nature)
Software (PLC and control circuits for instrumentation).
Next step would be identifying existing companies and leveraging their experience, module by module)

Ah. These are the details on which such a project can survive or die.

As far as I know, up until very recently (and its still true to a large extent) HAL was/is doing all of this. In a way this is absurd, but I believe the problem was a "Chicken first or egg first?" problem. No private industry was making the sophisticated (for the 1950s and 60s) components for aircraft. So HAL had to do it all. And because HAL was doing it all, no companies built up the skills and assembly lines to make sub assemblies for aviation related projects. This of course is changing and needs to change even further IMO.

[manish.rastogi]

To all gurus.....don't jump on me rather I would appreciate constructive criticism to further refine my thinking and the fighter jet i am proposing.....

You might have seen movies like Stealth and the recent GI Joe Rise of the Cobra......I took some inspiration from that!Now I hardly have any technical knowledge but I say that we should develop from scratch a totally new fighter plane(could also be said as 6th gen),the engine too...If we see new general innovations and technologies and basic concepts,I am pretty sure we could develop a unique and innovative jet and engine,I would say to develop a new kind of fuel with co-op from ISRO!
I say it should have internal bays for weapons....and some holes on the underneath of the fuselage to attach pylons if needed!
The biggest innovation I propose...is thrust vectoring but in a diff. manner,we should keep it on engine too!!but underneath the fuselage we should have some points from where thrust could be provided.....each point could give a variable thrust in the whole circular cone of area beneath it!All this could be controlled by a computer doing the necessary calculation stuff which could be controlled by pilot's throttle or by any other method which pilots would suggest!This could definitely give us a pretty good VTOL capability....and for sure would provide super maneuverability !I prefer maneuverability rather than very high speeds....for pulling maneuvers more than 9G....we could study the cockpit changes for more than 9G..and provide necessary changes which could nullify the high G effects!

I also say a bit enlarged and with some structural changes,we could also give a world class bomber JET!!
Please feel free to suggest or finding my mistakes!!I have still a lot to learn!

[ShivaS]

Not really, Kalam saar also had the same problem, if he relied on PSUs Prithvi would have stayed ground, Agnis would have been the coolest thing ever, and Akash would have been underground.

But he came to Godrej first he cajoled seth NPji it did not evoke much enthu in Bawaji.., then Kalam saar jacked up price, Sethji Yawned, the Kalam saar said import any damn thing required for this or any of your project under OGL I will pay, Sethiji started calculating, Kalam fired the last Salvo of Pinak battery, you have masive amount of Land in Slat Lake Calcutta, You have a lot of Land in Vikhroli, You have land in Hyderabad, you have it too in Ambattur, do you want to lose it all (under UCLA) or keep them and make my equipment also the money...
Rest is best left to you.

Yes it can be done I dont want to hear Nahi Hoga
iss Nahi hoga ke samne aap sirf Kyon add kardi jiya subkuch badal jayaga...
Kyon Nahi Hoga?
I will peel a little more like Sophia Loren in Yesterday Today Tomorrow... watch it

[vardhank]

Forgot a couple of things...
1) two-seater for sure
2) might need to elongate the fuselage a little... otherwise it would be very wide and stubby, which i imagine would affect stability, yes? (pulling this out of ze musharraf, no clue if that actually affects things)

Why a two seater? If we are looking at a primary requirement of a modern day "COIN" aircraft and interdictor/forward air support which has great performance at 20,000 feet as well as the ability to take off with a useful load from Leh, I would have thought that the weight and space requirement of a second pilot would only be a burden rather than an advantage.

But it appears to me that many such aircraft in the past have been developed from trainers and hence were two seat by default. Looking back at similar aircraft (apart from the proposed Indian CAT) I am able to recall the BAC Strikemaster (a development of The Hunting Jet Provost - used by Sri Lanka). The Strikemaster was 2 seat and had a max weight of about 5 tons.

The French Fouga Magister was used as a combat aircraft by Israel. It was a 2 seat trainer that was about 3 tons max.

The Cessna T 37 (operated by Bangladesh and Pakistan) appear to be trainers with a secondary combat role - just like the Kiran could be used I guess. The Cessna was 3 tons and Kiran 4 tons.

The BAe Hawk 200 is a single seat development of the Hawk trainer described as a "lightweight multirole combat fighter with emphasis on air defence, air superiority, anti-shipping, air-denial, long-range interdiction, short-range close air support and ground attack." and this is the sort of thing that comes to my mind. But the air combat capability as a primary requirement may be unnecessary.

The Hawk is 9 tons Max. I suspect the Indian Hawk can be used in this role too, but that takes the fun out of designing a jingo fighter with what we have now. The Hawk has a single Adour and it strikes me that if we use 2 Adours we will have a much bigger aircraft. Are we looking at an aircraft with a normal loaded weight of 10 tons? Much bigger than your average trainer.

I am not sure how the trade off between the inertia of higher mass and higher engine power is when it comes to maneuvering between mountaintops at high altitude. Obviously bigger wings and lower wing loading would make a difference. This is the sort of thing I would experiment with by making plane models and leave the calculation to people who have learned maths beyond 12 times tables.

Shiv,
The 2-seater/longer fuselage thing was in reference to my two-engined LCA idea (which no one has commented on *pouts and sulks* ), not the Kiran-based attack jet.
For the JF-1 (can we change the name? Sounds too much like the JF-17), I'm not certain... would it offset the weight penalty to have a pilot who can concentrate on missing those rather unforgiving mountains and a WSO who does the shoot-em-up job?

[shiv]

The 2-seater/longer fuselage thing was in reference to my two-engined LCA idea (which no one has commented on *pouts and sulks* ),

Ok I'll bite

Can someone come up with projected specs and an illustration of a two-engined LCA? I think it could make a very good gen 4+ MMRCA, good enough to take on the current MMRCA contenders.
To keep things simple, you'd use the same wings, same avionics and probably the same GE 414 engines (or two R25s, if we want to be stringent about the made-in-India idea, though it's probably not the best idea for this sort of plane).
You can either go for a narrow-fuselage design like the Rafale/Typhoon, or (my preference), a wide, lifting body like the Russians. Two vertical stabs, maybe canards if needed.
Can someone project weights, payload, range, number of hard points, etc?
The sticking point is probably the radar, but I expect it'll use whatever the LCA finally ends up using.
Also, how long do you estimate it would take to make this?

Actually I am horrified by the idea of a larger LCA. It makes a much bigger target to shoot at. I am no aerodynamics expert but somehow I get this vague feeling that the drag caused by a delta wing while turning probably shows more than just a linear increase with increase in wingspan - I mean the drag is related to area and not wingspan needing engines that are that much more powerful and fuel guzzling. I may be wrong. Ignorance may be speaking through me.

In fact some months ago we had discussed on this forum the exact opposite. A smaller LCA with no pilot - a UCAV.

[ShivaS]

WE should stick to HF for naming the series. I dont want to name anything Like Arjun, Pinaka Tejas etc till they serve at two to three yeras and then "re christain" them other wise we will run out names for imported and working mal.

Oh by the way I want this a/c to serve with Army aviation corps as Close Air support, and ground attack while the IAF protects them with their assets in the battle field. Sub sonic is fine as some one already said just like Su25 or munna beta of Warthog

[ShivaS]

good read

http://www.vectorsite.net/avsu25.html