INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Nov 2010 09:48

Most of modern SLBM was loaded into the tubes with their own Self Sealed Canister , K-4 too have their own sealed cannister.

Here is a pic to give an idea of how this is done ,Bulava being loaded on Borei Pics: Loading of SLBM

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 28 Nov 2010 13:59

How many arihant class vessels are planned?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 28 Nov 2010 14:13

krishna_krishna wrote:Hello Kanson : Excellent link, it reminds of very hotly debate on your post by the "he who must not be named anymore" on this forum. About health of people living near by and why the drdo scientist were right on their theory. Guru's i believe we need more debate on this important thing.

Hello krishna,

The quest for sub launched missile(Sagarika project) started in early 90s as per open information. The Charlie class sub we leased in late 80s was a SSGN which was meant to house N armed missiles/torpedoes. GF hinted about the Sagarika missile confirming our quest for Nuclear triad from 90s. So if one says we started any sub launched missile project only in 2004 he doesn't know the facts. By being operated SSGN, with N reactor, we could have gained the understanding of using N material in such a small confined space. And there were accidents, which must have further expanded our interest on the knowledge to safely operate N materials in such vessel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/164792.stm
Friday, September 4, 1998 Published at 15:52 GMT 16:52 UK

Mr Fernandes said that India is also developing a cruise missile system called 'Sagarika'. The missile is designed to be launched from a submarine or warship.

Those who involved in the project are whose day to day life deals with radiation and radiation hazard. Even a lab technician who is operating the medical scan machines everyday wears protective apron. To charge that they don't know about the basic thing, that a journalist could point out is ludicrous.

Even if we take his claim as true, it is easier to replace the lower grade material with high grade one in a design perfected for lower grade material though the contrary is not true. Example for this is W-80 warhead. The warhead was first meant for Air launched missiles. Later it was adopted to sub environment by replacing the material to high purity super grade plutonium. And there is no design changes to physics package. It gives at least some indication that the severity that he projects by not testing(if suppose) a specifically built sub launchable warhead in PoK-II is not true. So i think his claims are highly presumptuous. I think he has no idea what he is talking about.

dinesha wrote:Prasun Sengupta further responds to other comments..

In India's case, one has to develop the SLBM's warhead from scratch as it had, by May 1998, only tested the warhead designs meant for land-based ballistic missiles. And as you may have read in the INDIA TODAY article (read it carefully oncev again if you missed it), the K-15/K-4 programme formally got underway in only 2004. Therefore, no purpose-built n-warhead designed for an SLBM was tested back in May 1998, simply because no one had by then envisaged the need for SLBMs!
------------------------

Lastly, had the ATV's n-reactor been a homegrown contemporary design, it would then have had a lifespan of at least 25 years. Instead, as has been revealed by Rear Admiral (Ret'd) Raja Menon (a member of the NSC), the Arihant's n-reactor has only a 10-year lifespan! This crucial revelation clearly proves that the Arihant's n-reactor is of early 1980s vintage. And we all know through Capt (Ret'd) Subbarao's statements that the DAE, till 1988, had not even mastered the theoretical aspects of PWRs, leave alone design and production engineering!
---------------------------

To Rajat: Very pertinent question indeed. Why this self-imposed limitation then? Could it be that the deal struck with the Russians back on June 21, 1998 (under a secret annexure when signing the contract for for the two 1,000mW VVER light water reactors for Koodankulam project) was limited strictly to submarine-based applications of the Russia-supplied n-reactor design?
---------------------------------

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Nov 2010 09:38

The more I look at the Arihant and the fact that she has 4 tubes that can carry 12 Sagarika land attack missiles. The more I think that she was not intended to be a SSBN. The purpose of the boat was to be an Attack boat and not a SSBN. For the SSBN we may have a larger follow on class.. The Arihant can be quite useful as a hunterkiller boat. Along with the ability to hint inland target with the Sagarika.

But in the absence of solid and reliable infoumation the above is just a speculation.

CT Alert.

The cost escalation for the Scorpean and the lack of published numbers for the Arihant. I think that a large part of the cost escalation of the Scorpean actualy went towards the construction of the Arihant.

CT OFF

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 30 Nov 2010 14:58

Can we afford a hunter killer sub right now? Navy/MOD/GoI primarily see SSBNs are missile delivery boats. Arihant is seen as a test bed. On this test bed our future and more useful SSBNs and hopefully SSGNs will be built. But a hunter/killer nuclear submarine will take some time. Maybe when we have a 6-7 trillion dollar PPP GDP.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Nov 2010 15:17

Its not about the costs. As it is ve are paying close to a billion Us $ for the P75I. The Scorpeans and above 600 Mil+ are not exactly cheap.

If you are going to build a Nuke boat. The first one has to work from the day one. You cannot have a prototype or a TD. If you are looking at her as a Boomer. Then it is clear that she wont work. Sagarika is too short legged for the Arihant to be parked off PRC coast as an SSBN. The larger weapons will not be carried in large numbers. If she is carrying only 4 VL tubes. Also building an SSBN wihout a clearcut weapon ready to go from the word go. For the IN that weapon is and 8000 Km ICBM. So even the 5000 Km weapon will not be acceptable to them.

This leaves me with a conclusion that she is ment to be an attack boat and not an SSBN.

But this is just a speculation on my part in the absense of officialy released information from the DRDO/MOD/IN. That conclucivily states the nature of the beast.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Dec 2010 11:18

X posting from the naval discussion thread.

dinesha wrote:Interview with the Vice-Admiral Sanjeev Bhasin, flag officer commanding in chief of the Western Naval Command
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Guarding- ... 33332.aspx
SNIP.........
Before getting to the leased submarine, we have our own indigenously built submarine, INS Arihant. Extensive sea trials are on. .

^^^^

The underlined section is a bit contradictory from the previous reports and tidbit on the Arihant. That have stated that she is undergoing Harbor Trials.

Which report is accurate. This one or the one which suggests harbor trials. Also, the sea trial implies that the reactor is completed and fueled. Right?

As some of the reports in the past have suggested that she is awaiting the powerplant and the fuel it self.

JMT

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 02 Dec 2010 11:35

Sea trials after harbor trails.

amit · Post by **amit** » 02 Dec 2010 13:38

krishnan wrote:Sea trials after harbor trails.

I know there's a tendency to discount what senior brass of the Armed forces say in clear and unambiguous terms if they don't tally with our perceptions.

However if Vice-Admiral Sanjeev Bhasin says Sea trails are being held, it would imply that the harbor trials are over and successful, na?

Which would be great news!

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 02 Dec 2010 16:21

SSBN Arihant On Deterrent Patrol With Strategic Nukes By 2012: Navy Chief
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/12/in ... -with.html

It is undergoing sea trials...

India's nuclear triad -- a matrix of weapons delivery systems from land, air and sub-sea -- will be complete with the commissioning of India's first SSBN, Arihant in 2011-2012. In a significant comment at his annual press conference today in New Delhi, Indian Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma categorically stated that when the Arihant is put to see in two years, it will be on deterrent patrol with strategic weapons on board.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Dec 2010 17:09

Excellent news and not too soon either! One can't also wait too long to see the second ATV hit water and the Chakra,first Akula2/3 commissioned.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 02 Dec 2010 18:03

dinesha wrote:SSBN Arihant On Deterrent Patrol With Strategic Nukes By 2012: Navy Chief
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/12/in ... -with.html

It is undergoing sea trials...
India's nuclear triad -- a matrix of weapons delivery systems from land, air and sub-sea -- will be complete with the commissioning of India's first SSBN, Arihant in 2011-2012. In a significant comment at his annual press conference today in New Delhi, Indian Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma categorically stated that when the Arihant is put to see in two years, it will be on deterrent patrol with strategic weapons on board.

I think this silenced all questions, doubts raised and smear campaign made by all those critics about the reactor and N weapon and those who preferred to call it as mere TD. Wow, deterrent patrol with strategic weapon! I'm loving it.

Let me guess what they will be saying next. It is not the TN weapon becoz we never tested such weapon in Pok-II but old fission bomb. Oh gentlemen, it is the Pu in primary or fission bomb which is the main source of all those radiation hazard that was talked about in sub environment.

What next they may say? It is without N weapon, and Navy is putting a show. I say, good luck to their conscious.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 03 Dec 2010 00:00

Arihant to sail on deterrent patrol after commissioning
Sandeep Unnithan
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... oning.html

India's first ballistic missile submarine the INS Arihant will go on "deterrent patrol" or sail with a full complement of nuclear-tipped missiles when she is commissioned in 2012. "The nuclear triad will be there when it is commissioned," navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma said at a press conference in New Delhi.

This is the first time a service chief has commented on the deployment of a nuclear weapon platform. Launched last year, the Arihant is the first of a series of five indigenously constructed ballistic missile submarines (SSBN). The Indian SSBN is meant to form the third and most survivable leg of a troika of land, air and sea-based platforms enunciated by the Indian nuclear doctrine. The submarines are being constructed at the high security Naval Dockyard Visakhapatnam. "We expect to have it going in two years, end 2011 or 2012," Admiral Verma said. "We are going with the float as far as things go," he said in an attempt to answer speculation that technical glitches with the submarine would delay its commissioning.

Deterrent patrol means a long and lonely vigil where the submarine sails submerged and undetectable for weeks on end with its load of nuclear weapons. It is meant to 'deter' an adversary from launching a first strike on the nation. Only four nations-the US, Russia, France and UK have SSBNs sailing on deterrent patrols. China has two SSBNs and is building three more but its submarines have never sailed on deterrent patrols.

Admiral Verma's predecessor was the first to confirm the existence of the highly classified Advanced Technology vessel (ATV) project two years back. Security analysts however believe that the navy chief's estimates of induction could be optimistic. The Arihant is yet to begin her sea trials or even fire up her nuclear reactor. Missile tests will follow after the submarine completes her sea trials which could take up to a year. Two nuclear-tipped missiles are being developed for the Arihant class. A 700-km submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) called the K-15 or the B-05 has been tested eight times and is in serial production. A 3500 km SLBM, the K-4 has been tested once and will be fielded by around 2017. A second test of the K-4 is expected in the next two months.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 03 Dec 2010 00:01

^^^^What would be the launch platform for K-15 SLBM if already in serial production? What use of stocking SLBMs if no launch platform is YET available ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Dec 2010 00:07

What is your question? The K-15 serial production is to fill the tubes of the Arihant on its initial patrol. You need 3*4 = 12 for initial outload. After 2017 there will be K-4s also.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 03 Dec 2010 01:46

Pratyush wrote:As some of the reports in the past have suggested that she is awaiting the powerplant and the fuel it self.
JMT

Hmm.... They cant just insert a powerplant by lifting the bonnet of Arihant nor can they fuel it later by using headload workers balancing their way down the conning tower with bundles. They would have to cut up the hull and redo the whole thing. So why would anyone launch an empty hull boat with fanfare and later at enormous cost, cut it up again?

For a frugal country that used a surface ship and a submersible pontoon launcher for proofing tests, instead of say adapting a diesel sub for launch tests, it is too much cost to do these nataks for the press alone.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 03 Dec 2010 06:39

The reactor segment with the reactor inside is welded into the submarine.

Now I wonder why the reactor hasn't been turned on yet.
Is the reactor capable of refuelling? Or is it a completely sealed reactor which will have to be removed off the submarine, along with the fuel rods every 10 years?

Sandeep Unnithan's first ever arihant expose seemed to suggest that the reactor is a fully sealed unit with the fuel rods too sealed in, and there is no removing the fuel rods.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 03 Dec 2010 06:56

Gagan, the land based twin of this reactor is supposedly working. SO why would the reactor not be working in the sub yet? What do sea trials involve otherwise?

negi · Post by **negi** » 03 Dec 2010 06:59

Reactor can have fuel and at the same time not be critical.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Dec 2010 07:22

Reactor is working, but it is not ready to generate the required power.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Dec 2010 07:45

negi wrote:Reactor can have fuel and at the same time not be critical.

Yes.

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 03 Dec 2010 07:54

http://www.hindustantimes.com/First-N-a ... 33721.aspx

Extract: To be armed with 12 ballistic missiles, Arihant will provide India enduring nuclear strike and counter-strike capabilities.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Dec 2010 07:57

ramana wrote:After 2017 there will be K-4s also.

Is it not K-X ?

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 03 Dec 2010 08:45

ramana wrote:What is your question? The K-15 serial production is to fill the tubes of the Arihant on its initial patrol. You need 3*4 = 12 for initial outload. After 2017 there will be K-4s also.

INS Arihant is going to carry 12 K-15s maximum. May be 12 more would be required for sub-launch trials and user trials until 2017 by when K-4 with 3500KM range will be inducted and operated from Arihant. This will be followed by fielding of K-X with range greater then 5000KM.

So, K-15 will be fielded temporarily as stopgap measure till 2017 (and may be few years more) until K-4 and K-X are perfected and deployed. when K-4 is deployed and fielded in 2017, K-15 with 700 KM range will be withdrawan. Previously Navy Chief had stated that Arihant will need to be operated from Indian Ocean (and not restricted to Bay of Bengal, South China Sea or Arabian Sea) for credible and survival deterrent petrol.

K-15 is in serial production since 2008 (as per Uninathan), In 5 Years by 2012 Navy will have lot many K-15 SLBM than 24 operationally required for temporary fielding in one single sub.
Why serial produce K-15 is large nos?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Dec 2010 08:57

todays TOI says sea trials to commence in two months.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 030573.cms

With INS Arihant's miniature 83 mw pressurised light-water reactor slated to go "critical" within a month or two for sea-acceptance trials

.....

The 6,000-tonne INS Arihant, which has four silos on its hump to carry 12 K-15s or four extended range K-4s, is to be followed by another two nuclear submarines under the secretive Rs 30,000 crore Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project.

Navy, on its part, wants to have three SSBNs and six SSNs (nuclear-powered attack submarines) in the years ahead

.....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Dec 2010 09:27

Interesting that no requirements for SSGN!.. that is what exactly IN may want especially keeping chin-pak in mind.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Dec 2010 09:33

if my reading is true, the 2nd and 3rd boats might be 'proper' SSBN of around 10,000t to permit carriage of 12 K-4 missiles. this will alleviate the triad issue.

the arihant and 4th-5th boats would be our SSN-cum-SSGN similar to the LA class which it resembles in size and shape....688I class had 8 tomahawks in VL tubes and arihant has room for 12 K-1 now and later Nirbhay SLCM.

note that from now on SSBN and SSN (2nd and 4th above) could well be made in parallel or atleast in overlapping manner to shorten the gaps between induction.

with blank cheque PMO-MOD support and Rus 'advisers' onsite , money, knowhow and resources is probably NOT an issue anymore in this project...its more a execution thing.

after 3 of the arihant type one would expect a new SSN design because IN likes everything in 3 or multiples of 3.

by 2025 i,e, in 15 years we should have a very credible SSN and SSBN based sea borne deterrent similar to fast fading UK and france (who will likely merge the fleets to save cost and cut numbers and warheads drastically..something like a combined 2 vanguard + 2 troimphant with 1 boat on patrol always for H&D fig leaf purposes).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Dec 2010 09:41

you are there..
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -specs.htm
Total Number 5-6

This site shows about 5 schematics
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -schem.htm

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Dec 2010 10:00

Dinesha< Recall the K-15 is same as Shourya. So excess can be fielded by land forces.

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 03 Dec 2010 11:57

I dont think the K-15 offers any sunstantial deterrence given its range and the navy knows that well, so this patrol is probably to learn the ropes: protocols ,procedures to be followed , communication checks and all the stuff invlolved in launching a nuke , so that the navy is ready when the real long arms come. The best part is this is the first time that we are showing in action that we are willing and ready to strike back since the subs will carry live war heads.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 03 Dec 2010 13:23

OK..You are right ... so technically Shourya in under serial production... Few of these will be loaded with strategic n-warhead, canisterized, sealed and re-named as k-15/other chosen name... But even land version with 750KM range is going to be a stop-gap arrangement untill higher range version is developed and produced..

What is your (and other in-house experts) views on matters related to canisterization of all future Indian strategic missile as declared by DRDO. How are they going to achieve this without mating the n-warheads with the RV? Is India already moving away from the Tellis described “force-in-being"”posture. It appears so when one considers other happenings/strategic scenario such as operationalization of Arihant and current CNS statement.. what are your views about implications on India wrt Chinese and Piggyland's action in responce to our new "force-in-ready" posture? Does not the DRDO's focussed and accelerated R&D work on ABM program (AAD, PAD other Indo-Israeli projects) reflective of change in our strategic posture?.. How will it alter/add to conventional and nuclear detterance especially wrt Piggys and their terrorist adventurism such as 26/11?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Dec 2010 15:57

Future ATVs will neccessarily have to be larger and possess a larger number of missile silos to counter China.This would mean a new design of a boat at least 10-12000t.The first ATV will be a deterrent mainly for Pak.The configuration also means that future SSGNs could be based more or less like the Arihant,as 4 silos with 750/1250 km 12 K-15 missiles/equiv. would be sufficient along with about 18-24 torpedoes/cruise missiles/Klub missile family launched from two sizes of TTs.This seems most likely if we are going to go by the earlier post which said that until the '90s ,the ATV was not considered as an SSBN,but an SSGN.It also explains the discreet small cutaway diagram of an SSGN in an earlier issue in the "F" mag,where the SSGN looked remarkably like the ATV.

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 03 Dec 2010 21:52

dinesha wrote:Arihant to sail on deterrent patrol after commissioning
Sandeep Unnithan
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... oning.html
India's first ballistic missile submarine the INS Arihant will go on "deterrent patrol" or sail with a full complement of nuclear-tipped missiles when she is commissioned in 2012. "The nuclear triad will be there when it is commissioned," navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma said at a press conference in New Delhi.

This is the first time a service chief has commented on the deployment of a nuclear weapon platform. Launched last year, the Arihant is the first of a series of five indigenously constructed ballistic missile submarines (SSBN). The Indian SSBN is meant to form the third and most survivable leg of a troika of land, air and sea-based platforms enunciated by the Indian nuclear doctrine. The submarines are being constructed at the high security Naval Dockyard Visakhapatnam. "We expect to have it going in two years, end 2011 or 2012," Admiral Verma said. "We are going with the float as far as things go," he said in an attempt to answer speculation that technical glitches with the submarine would delay its commissioning.

We are going with the float as far as things go ? What does this statement mean? Is it they are going to commit to Arihant as long as they can which would be mean in IMHO underwhelming kind of statement for a flagship project like Arhant . Esp given the detterent patrol statement earlier..Kind of jarring for that statment to be there or does it mean something else? Gurus ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Dec 2010 22:37

Canistering means the separation of cores from weapons phase is over and alsomeans som sort of super duper Indian version of Command and control akin to PLAS is in place.

It adds to the Credibility of the MND.

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 03 Dec 2010 22:44

Jayram wrote: We are going with the float as far as things go ? What does this statement mean? Is it they are going to commit to Arihant as long as they can which would be mean in IMHO underwhelming kind of statement for a flagship project like Arhant . Esp given the detterent patrol statement earlier..Kind of jarring for that statment to be there or does it mean something else? Gurus ?

Nope, very literal

ATV will continue to be called ATV. Much like the original Agni was Agni-TD.

It will serve the purpose of being the tech demonstrator and for further R&D. It will serve as a weapons platform as Agni-TD did in limited way for limited time. As soon as second goes out, ATV will begin to be pulled back and used as a development platform more and more.

My 2c worth through the parsing exercise we have been on this forum for over 10 years now!

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 04 Dec 2010 00:27

^^
Probably "going with the flow" became "going with the float" due to ddmitis.

Going with the flow because this is a first time for Navy, BARC and DRDO and hence lot of unknowns.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 04 Dec 2010 01:02

ramana wrote:Canistering means the separation of cores from weapons phase is over and alsomeans som sort of super duper Indian version of Command and control akin to PLAS is in place.

It adds to the Credibility of the MND.

Might explain Unkil closing his eyes at pakis' recent furious buildup of warheads. We are decidedly moving away from the decoupled status and pakis, for the first time, are in a reactive mode

Pakis would be the one most affected, as they cant mate wareheads due to their jihadi/xerox credibility issues. And unkil can prevent them to core up their mijjiles due to the same concerns, unlike say India. Now that is a big question mark over Unkil. Unkil has been known to be do stupid stuff when it comes to pakis/chinese and if they allow the pakis to core up those missiles named after historic gang-rapists, there might be issues to the entire world.

The best course for unkil is to close his eyes and let pakis get over their insecurity of a first strike by us from the sea. Furious buildup with PRC help in the hopes of atleast some warheads surviving a totally surprising first strike.

Even by 2025, we need those 12 K-Minors of Arihant with conventional heads to say, liberate an odd island or two, if need be.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 04 Dec 2010 02:02

looks like the pieces are falling in place. the chinese have bargained for something they did not expect with all their shenanigans.
our NSA openly saying that our NFU is against NNWS
all these missile tests and operationalization of fully mated canisterized versions
no political leader worth the salt saying anything about CSD -- CSD level action is an option
arihant of deterrent patrol -- that just sounds so cool -- priceless

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Dec 2010 02:36

Where did the NSA clarify the Nofoo? This is major departure.

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Dec 2010 02:41

^ You mean the part about it being a NFU only against NNWS ? Iirc SS posted on this in deterrence dhaga sometime back.