Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

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Sanku
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Sanku »

negi wrote:MMS is talking about no war; such things make sense coming from who is capable of going on war in the first place. :rotfl:
Ok shooting from your shoulders Negi, not at you.

This "no war pact" is not a frivolous matter, although it appears to be one, like a simple chai-biskoot session, which means nothing, other than pandering to Paki ego and keeping them in good humor in hope of aman ki tamasha asha -- however; this is pretty obvious. Yet significant political and other capital is being invested, do those investing it not know what a joke this is, and if so, why are they doing it?

The answer is that this move is essentially a precursor, a move to create a preliminary back ground for later use. Some potential uses are

1) Withdrawal from Siachen -- "Since we now have a pact, we can safely bring our boys home from the cold freezing wasteland without worrying since there is no reason to fight anymore"

2) Reduction of IAs modernization plan/downsizing -- "Kindly factor in the new developments ruling out war with Pakistan and hence reduced threat perception, please use this to appropriate size the force and achieve cost savings to reduce the growing budget deficit"

Both the above are perfectly rational, solid & legal moves by GoI if it chooses to do so (some examples of a working scenario are SALT etc) -- HOWEVER this one as is obvious to every BRFite, is a fraud, since Pakistan will never keep its side of the bargain and in fact use the lull to gain military advantage -- so the pitfall is obvious -- but still we may fear that certain folks (esp at the helm) in GoI might want to do this for their own reasons -- of course we do not have to worry about this right now since we know that Man Mohan Singh, has great regard for Indian security and other interests, as seen by his stand during PoK II tests, at Havana, at Sharm-el-Sheik during the Nuclear deal debate in parliament etc. and by having ask his Home minister to forget about 26/11 and play cricket.

However in future we may not have the able leadership of Dr Manmohan Singh, and therefore, we must be careful that Dr Singh doe NOT enter into a agreement which may be dangerous in future less competent hands.
Last edited by Sanku on 09 Nov 2012 00:59, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by SBajwa »

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20121108/punjab.htm#1

Sukhbir bats for joint venture in textile sector
In Lahore, Deputy Chief Minister says India and Pak Punjab can supplement each other’s industry
Tribune News Service

Chandigarh, November 7
Deputy Chief Minister Sukhbir Singh Badal today underlined the need for giving a big push to the textile industry as it had great potential of employment generation.

Speaking at a function organised by All Pakistan Textile Manufacturers Associate (APTMA) in Lahore, Badal, in an official statement, said the textile industry of Indian and Pakistan Punjab should join hands and supplement each other’s strength.

“The textile industry is quite developed in Pakistan as it constitutes more than 70 per cent of the country’s exports. And we in Punjab are actively pursuing the initiative of a textile park in the Malwa region,” he said.

Inviting APTMA delegation to Punjab, Badal said textile manufacturers of both Punjabs should explore the possibility of a joint venture to excel in competitive goods. He said an APTMA delegation should visit Punjab and discuss the opportunities available in the textile sector. Lauding the improvement in India-Pakistan trade ties, he said people on both sides of the border wanted to live in harmony and the governments of both the nations would have to bend before the people’s wishes.

Earlier, APTMA office-bearers spoke about the progress in textile sector in Punjab (Pakistan)and also honoured the Deputy Chief Minister and his Cabinet colleagues.

Punjab has been trying hard to retain its industry after Gujarat announced a new textile policy earlier this year, offering a slew of incentives. Punjab, therefore, was forced to constitute a committee to look into the issue in September. Currently, the state has 38 spinning mills. But, incentives in Punjab are a pittance as compared to those being offered by Gujarat.

In another development, India and Pakistan today rewrote another chapter in terms of strengthening India-Pakistan sports relations as Deputy Chief Minister Sukhbir Singh Badal and Chief Minister of Pakistan's Punjab Shahbaz Sharif inaugurated the eight-day Punjab Youth Festival-2012 and Dosti Cup for hearing and speech impaired teams.

Sukhbir described it as a historic day while Sharif termed it as golden day in India-Pakistan relations in the field of sports.

Sukhbir said he had been endervouring since past several years to promote traditional games, especially between India and Pakistan, as sports was the most effective confidence building measure. He said the two World Cup Kabaddi Tournaments organised by the Punjab Government had reiterated the resolve of people of both the countries to promote traditional games.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Suppiah »

There is a good reason Beijing's faithful friends are pushing for no war pact. There is a small but certain chance that Obama may take the war on terror too where it belongs. If that happens, they may ask for some logistics help. TSP has to be saved and terror against India has to be kept alive so we are boxed in S Asia and not challenge the pay master's agenda of global domination.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Anujan »

What is a "no war pact"? An assurance that we won't attack Pakistan at all under all circumstances? What if Pakistan attacks first ? That doesn't even make any sense and would not be worth the paper it is signed on. Anyone remember what happened to the other no war pact we signed? Also called panchsheel with China before 1962 ? Why didn't China respect that and not attack us? And more importantly why didn't we adopt gandhigiri and refrain from fighting?

We are needlessly hyperventilating. No war pact is incapable of being implemented or monitored. Our force levels are based on threat perceptions from China so the levels for those cannot be turned down either.

Let's not construct straw man hypothetical and hyperventilate. One more thing. Declaration and prosecution of war is in the seventh schedule and is a privilege of the parliament. Are we going to have a constitutional amendment to exempt Pakistan in the seventh schedule?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Suppiah »

Be that as it may, you never know what the WKKs are capable of...given TSP China gifted nukes, preemptive and completely debilitating surprise strike is one option we should never give up. Pakbarics should have nothing to fight for after that. Or fight with.

So giving up that option solidifies the blackmail strategy of terroristan, pleases it's handlers in Beijing and suits its puppets in India.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by SSridhar »

Abhijit wrote: Every conciliatory gesture from India, helps postpone the next major terror strike by a few days/weeks/months.
Abhijit, I think we must disabuse ourselves of this belief that we can buy off Pakistani terror groups through such things as cricket, visas etc. We have been plainly lucky that a 7/11-like Mumbai attack hasn't taken place after 26/11. And, yet there have been plenty of terror strikes. I quote from an earlier post
Less than two months back, there were serial bomb blasts in Pune and much fatalities, maiming and damage were averted because of pure luck: rain and a failed electronic circuitry. In July 2011, the most sought after target in India, Mumbai, was rocked once again by three serial bomb blasts that killed over two dozen people and maimed 150. In December 2010, the Sankat Mochan temple was bombed and a toddler was killed. In February 2010, the Best bakery in Pune was bombed again killing a dozen and injuring over 50. Yet another attack was exactly a year ago to this day at the Delhi High Court which killed a dozen people and injured over 70. How quickly we have forgotten all these ! May be, we no longer classify such attacks where the fatalities are less than a hundred, as terror attacks. . . These are cases which happened. We don't know how many attempts were nipped by the intel agencies.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Prem »

India’s need for energy dependent on Pak: PEE M
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news- ... -on-pak-pm
KARACHI - Prime Minister Rental Raja Pervaiz Assraf on Wednesday contended that Pakistan would have a crucial role in India’s efforts to acquire energy from the Central Asian Republics, saying peace and stability are essential for the socio-economic development of the region.
“s stability are essential for socio-economic development of the region. It is a matter of satisfaction that both Pakistan and India are moving forward in the right direction through the composite dialogue framework,” he said.South Asia, which is home to one-fifth of the world population and blessed with immense natural resources, has the “potential to emerge as a leading and potent economic force”, he told a gathering that included diplomats, senior Pakistani and foreign military officials and representatives of armament firms from round the world.Assraf reiterated that since the world’s economic centre of gravity was shifting to Asia, specifically to Asia Pacific, it was, therefore, imperative for Pakistan to avail all opportunities
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by SSridhar »

Let me give a run-down on the history of the no-war pact.

As years went by after the attempt by Pakistan to grab J&K through terror and then militarily, India continued to talk peace but these were generally rejected by successive Pakistani leadership starting from Liaquat Ali in 1948 to Ayub Khan in 1965, under one pretext or another. For example, in December 1949, Nehru made the first of his several ‘No War’ offers to the Pakistani Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan which he rejected citing the pending resolution of the Kashmir and other issues. Successive Indian Prime Ministers including Lal Bahadur Shastri, Mrs. Indira Gandhi, Mr. Morarji Desai followed up on similar offers which were all rejected by Pakistan as unworkable in the absence of the resolution of the Kashmir issue. Pakistani analysts continue to claim that Nehru’s rejection of Ayub Khan’s ‘Joint Defence’ offer in circa 1959 and his retort “Joint defence Against Who ?” as a great opportunity that was missed by India. However, given the fact that by circa 1954/1955, Pakistan had joined the SEATO and CENTO ostensibly to fight the spread of communism while India had remained steadfast with its policy of non-alignment, such a pact would naturally raise the question, “Joint Defence Against Who ?”. Thus, Ayub Khan’s offer was made in the full knowledge that India would not take it and was just offered to make India look intransigent to peace efforts. It was again in 1981, after the Bear Trap had set sufficiently in motion in Afghanistan and Pakistan had become the pivot, that it once again offered a ‘No War’ pact to India. However, Pakistan never offered India any concrete proposals through diplomatic channels to be taken seriously. India naturally felt it was merely a diversionary tactic or a tactic to make India feel complacent while it went ahead with massive acquisition of arms and development of nuclear weapons and missiles under a benign US administration with Chinese help. However, Pakistan did present a proposal to India in 1982 through government channels. India, in return, offered a more comprehensive treaty of friendship, peace and cooperation. During the period between 1982-1983, there was considerable thawing in the relationship between the two countries as a result of the peace negotiations. However, Pakistan’s support for the Khalistani separatist forces put paid to further improvement until 1985 when the second meeting of the Indo-Pak Joint Commission was held. The pact not to attack each other’s nuclear installations as well another to improve trade relations were signed in 1986. As usual, the Siachen issue derailed the thaw. For India, it was nothing new and was just a reminder of c. 1965.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Suppiah »

Interesting why dynasty friendly yellow are singing this old tune may be to divert some attention from scams; by some luck if it happens, then it is bonus
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by SSridhar »

The reason for the offer of a no-war pact might lie in the fact that Pakistan has several troubles to contend with: re-establishment of strategic-depth in Afghanistan which is far more difficult to do now than in c. 1994, 'bad Taliban' insurgency, economic difficulties, worsening relationship with the US etc. Now, there are multiple Pakistans that India has to deal with. The PA does not want a direct confrontation with India but it most certainly wants to continue with harassing us through terror. However, that is like walking a razor-thin edge. They don't know when an operation would turn too big than planned, as it happened in Mumbai on 26/11/2008. So, the PA has been working on a non-interruptible peace process (in which it has succeeded) and is now going to the next most important level. Knowing that India scrupulously follows its bilateral committments, such an agreement would give it the cover to continue with terror secure in the belief that India would not go to war. The PA is therefore pursuing the idea of 'no-war' through political Pakistan. The PA is saving itself for another day.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by shiv »

Sagar G wrote:
shiv wrote:I think India the nation is right in being afraid of Pakistan. We don't want to get nuked even if we are able to destroy Pakistan in a war.
If such is the case then we will never get over the problem named pakistan,
I think this is an accurate and honest assessment. I do not see any situation in which we can get over the Pakistan problem in the next 50 years. There are too may brainwashed Islamists in Pakistan who will fight with India as if they are fighting for Islam.

I don't think India should attempt to fight Pakistan. In my view India should let Pakistan develop its idea of Islam so the whole world can see what Islam actually means. After that let there be war between Islam a envisioned by Pakistan and everyone else, or a realization that Islam itself needs a change of course.

As long as we wish away Islam as a source of problem we will only be pretending that it can be solved. Pakistan is a state based on Islam and all disputes with India are Islamic issues. Disputes with the US too are now islamic.

I find it funny that many people on this forum are quite happy to curse "secular" forces in India but are unable to see how they too are behaving and referring to "Pakistan the nation" in that same sickular manner. Pakistan is not a nation state, It is a manifestation of Islam being maintained as an islamic warrior nation. Just because the USA and the secular Indian government pretend otherwise does not change fundamental facts.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by anupmisra »

That no-war pact or NWP (in any shape or form) is a trap. It has the same binding effect as the no-first use decision. It will bolden the pakis into taking decisions that will only help them. Devil's in the details but who knows what the NWP will include. My guess is that it will certainly prohibit each nation to attack the other if the other is under atack by a third party. If India fears Chinese attack and the pakis taking advantage of it, the Chinese are not fools. They are not looking for another war, especially not now when their global ambitions outweigh the desire for Arunachal Pradesh. On the other hand, if pakiland is attacked (by Nato, Afghanistan, Iran, Swat, Fata...) then India can not take advantage of the diverted attention and wrest PoK back.

Besides, when's the last time the pakis have kept their word? It is all too convenient for them to blame non-state actors or djinns.

That NPW also frees up their army temporarily from the eastern front and transfers the bulk of it to the western front. Is that in India's advantage to free up the paki army, who will then take care of their immediate problems with the TTP, and once FATA is back in paki control, these very paki regulars will be back on the eastern front, tear up the NPW and start to harass the IA.

This NPW pact will be too self serving for the pakis. India stands to gain nothing from it. India will probably do better if it had a NWP with the chinese.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by shiv »

What I find really amusing about this talk of "No War Pact" is that war is fought by the Paki army or jihadis. Only in India is the question of war decided by the political leadership - currently Manmohan Singh.

So who is going to sign the pact in Pakistan? Assphuck Kiyani? Huffy Saeed (Peace Be Upon His Mother and Concubine)?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Raja Ram »

Gentle Rakshaks,

The "No-War Pact" buzzword is to be seen in the right context. The re-elected President of the USA is committed to get his troops back from Afghanistan. He however, has to ensure there are no chance of any regrouping on both sides of the Durand line to create a base from where an attack on the US mainland or Europe can be be organized. The US is not bothered about what happens to India from these jehadis. Period. The NATO allies also want to pack and leave. But overall none want to relinquish control. Rule by proxy establishments in both Pakistan and Afghanistan looks increasingly bleak unless they cut a deal. To cut a deal, Pakis have to be brought on board. The only difference this time, the carrot for Pakistan is allowing them to exist as a nation by providing just enough life line - economically and more than enough military hardware to deter India in the event, they want to finish the Pakistan problem for good.

The Saudis do not want the base in Pakistan to go after their own regime - a likely possibility as the Khaki influence on their more holy bretheren continues to wane. The Chinese are scared about Xinjiang. Not many know that China faces two "Kashmirs" of their own - the one in Tibet and the one in Xinjiang. The latter has always been more bloody and they are seeking support from the Pakistanis.

The ownership cabals of Pakistan are all facing different kind of existential challenge or the other. The political lot are getting marginalized, the Khaki's are getting challenged by the Mullah mob, the Mullah mob is getting Droned, the Judiciary wants to emerge as another co-owner of the spoils, they feel left out and so they want to piss on all the others and mark territory.

If at all there is one point agenda where all these needs converge it is in the continuation of the artificial entity called Pakistan. For that to happen, Pakistan should be seen to get something. Something substantial. As usual, when it comes to giving to Pakistan, it is always expected that India gives Pakistan something. At times, Indus water, at times a pipeline revenue, at times free power, and at times giving up territory, be it Siachen or Sir Creek.

That hinges on the "Two Myths" foundation. One there is a need for a stable and prosperous Pakistan, it is in India's interest and is vital for its ascension into great power status. Two there is no alternative but to talk and resolve all issues with Pakistan because it is our neighbour.

For this many a lemon will be sold - Aman ki Asha, Security Council Seat, No war pact, great economic investments, oil and energy, high technology.

But gentle rakshaks, there will always be lemon sellers. It is for the Government of India and the leadership to recognise a lemon selling when it happens and deal with it. If you take a long range view of the past, the successive governments in India have always been wary of such lemons. However, there has also been instances when such lemons have been bought and sold to naive Indian public. Time will tell whether the present leadership comes out on the correct side.

Just a random ramble. Take it for what it is worth. :)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Sanku »

Anujan wrote:What is a "no war pact"? An assurance that we won't attack Pakistan at all under all circumstances?
An assurance that India will weaken itself and will be in no position to punish Pakistan, so no perhaps not under all circumstances (a Modern day Nehru might finally decide that force is needed when Paki's at 10 Km from LBZ) -- but pretty much under most circumstances that matter.

It is a assurance, every time they hit us, we will send more as ziziya, as oil, electricity, business offers etc.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by shiv »

Raja Ram wrote: The Chinese are scared about Xinjiang. Not many know that China faces two "Kashmirs" of their own - the one in Tibet and the one in Xinjiang. The latter has always been more bloody and they are seeking support from the Pakistanis.
Funny thing is - that Karakoram highway, that link between birathers in alms is still shut after the avalanche. It appears like the tarrel and deepel fliends do not want the highway open in a hurry or jihadis will come in truckloads. And just a week or two ago was the nes that the faithfool Moslems of Xinjiang are fighting in Syria :((
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Lisa »

There was a long time ago an individual called Frank B. Kellogg. He conjured up the

Kellogg–Briand Pact

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellogg%E2 ... riand_Pact

What a small world, he was awarded the Nobel Piss prize. What a coincidence.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by JE Menon »

A. Rai,

>>Look how far Sonia would go to so that we can have our first gay PM.

What is the connection between this comment and the article link that you posted?
If you have a problem with gays, take it to another forum. This forum does not care.

Consider this your first caution.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by shiv »

Oh fancy that? Now we get to pay local rates to speak to a terrorist.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Kapil »

8)
It will worsen their economy. All the idiots will send smses to Ekta Kapoor and participate in her contests.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by RSoami »

Dont underestimate the Pappi Jhappi WKK idiots on this side..
They will fix some Kaun Banega Crorepati episode to give back the money to water-car-inventor IQ level fellow.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by anupmisra »

Flags on fire: Obama win may be good news for Pakistan flag-makers
Every dark cloud has a silver lining, I guess.
Pakistan’s flag industry enjoyed a boom in September when a U.S.-made anti-Islam film sparked weeks of demonstrations
Many Pakistanis fear President Barack Obama’s re-election will mean a surge in America’s unpopular drone campaign, but for those making and selling U.S. flags to burn at protests this could be good news
In Rawalpindi, U.S. flags start at around 120 rupees ($1.25) but in Shah’s shop 1,500 rupees will get you a three-square-metre number in cloth.
AoA. The paki economy is all set to bounce back.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by anupmisra »

Flag burning. A national past time that keeps the manufacturers, out of work momeens and tamashahis busy in pakiland. Then there is this Poetic Justice

Abdullah Ismail dies inhaling fumes from burning US flags
Pakistani protestor has died after inhaling smoke from burning U.S. flags during a rally against the anti-Islam film Innocence of Muslims. Abdullah Ismail died in Mayo hospital in Lahore having complained of feeling unwell during the angry demonstrations in the eastern Pakistan city yesterday.
Aah, the irony!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Gagan »

No war pact?

This has been a very long standing demand of the pakeez, they've brought this up with ABV also.

I am quite sure some wily hidootva bunniya baboo, at the last minute, will want to include "proxy" war in that agreement too, to which pakis will decline.

And yet again we will be treated to that line, "the agreement was 99% final, but hardliners from the indian side scuttled the agreement"

This is con[gress] dangling a carrot in front of the pak fauj.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by kish »

Obama victory infuriates :lol: Pakistani drone victims
The 28-year-old Pakistani accuses the president of robbing him of his father, three brothers and a nephew, all killed in a U.S. drone aircraft attack a month after Obama first took office.
Out of 6 terrorists, drones has taken out 5 of them. Not bad
"The same person who attacked my home has gotten re-elected," he told Reuters in the capital, Islamabad, where he fled after the attack on his village in South Waziristan, one of several ethnic Pashtun tribal areas on the Afghan border.
So, islamabad is the place where the terrorists hide. When does U.S bomb islamabad to wipe out terrorism.
(If you split the word 'islamabad' interchange the words, it becomes 'a Bad 1slam' :lol: )
"Since yesterday, the pressure on my brain has increased. I remember all of the pain again."
'Brain',Thats a lie. :mrgreen:
Drone strikes are highly unpopular among many Pakistanis, who consider them a violation of sovereignty that cause unacceptable civilian casualties
:lol:
"Whenever he has a chance, Obama will bite Muslims like a snake. Look at how many people he has killed with drone attacks," said Haji Abdul Jabar, whose 23-year-old son was killed in such a bombing.
:rotfl:
Obama authorized nearly 300 drone strikes in Pakistan during his first four years in office, more than six times the number during the administration of George W. Bush, according to the New America Foundation policy institute.
May be there is a reason why Obama got 'noble peace prize'.
"We are amazed that Obama has been re-elected. But for us there is no difference between Obama and Romney; both are enemies :D . And we will keep up our jihad and fight alongside our Afghan brothers to get the Americans out of Afghanistan," said Pakistan Taliban spokesman Ehsanullah Ehsan
"Any American, whether Obama or Mitt Romney, is cruel," Warshameen Jaan Haji, whose neighborhood was struck by a drone last week, told Reuters on the eve of the election. "I lost my wife in the drone attack and my children are injured. Whatever happens, it will be bad for Muslims."
"When the Sandy hurricane came, I thought that Allah would wipe away America :eek: ," he said. "America just wants to take over the world."
Mus'limps are peacefull only.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by chetak »

The Ideology of Pakistan: A thorny issue


The simple liberals say: Pakistan was created for the Muslims who could not possibly thrive in a Hindu dominated India. Hindus and Muslims are two different nations. Thus, the ideology of Pakistan is Islam. They quote Quaid-i-Azam’s speeches to support their point of view.

I humbly submit the following questions and opinions to this august group:

1. What about the large number of Muslims that were left behind in India? If the larger Muslim populace could not survive under the domination of the powerful Hindus what chances did the much-diminished population of Muslims have? Imagine, if today all the Muslims were in an undivided India they would have constituted nearly 40 per cent of the total population! That would have given them serious political clout to fight for their rights.

2. Consider that by creating a new state based on distrust and hatred, it actually created two warring states on day one of their creation. This intense animosity between the two countries has remained the single most important factor in the formulation of Pakistan’s foreign policy. Internally, every leader in Pakistan has cynically invoked the specter of the fear of India and milked the cow of national security whenever faced with domestic unrest and disaffection. The distrust of India gives immense clout to the army that gets a free hand to spend the poor country’s money on defense. What has that expenditure given in return? Half the country was lost and the remaining is living under very insecure conditions. Soon there may be nothing left to defend!

3. What happened as early as 1971 to that great common bond of religion that was the basis of creating a new nation? Just 24 years after the creation of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan more than half the population decided they had enough of being part of the great Republic?

4. Following the partition of India in 1947, Mohammad Rushdi’s lovely voice sang to us on the radio;

Hum laayen hein toofan sey kashti nikal key
Iss mulk ko rakhna meray bachoo sumbhal key

(We have steered this boat through stormy waters)
(My children, take care of your precious country)

And stormy waters they were; millions killed, maimed, raped and displaced on both sides. A human tragedy occurred on a colossal scale that was not anticipated by any of the great leaders of the Hindus, Muslims or British. Who should history hold responsible for these massacres?

The same saga was repeated in 1971. Once again, thousands killed, raped or maimed. Only this time it was the blood of Muslims mingling with the blood of other Muslims and the semen of Muslim Pakistani soldiers entering bodies of Muslim Bengali women. No Sir, this does not fit well at all in your raison d’être for Pakistan, the famous “Two Nation Theory”. Where was the mother of all bonding, “Islam”? Unless, of course, you say that East Pakistan and West Pakistan were two nations in this case! More likely, years of exploitation by the West Wing gave the Bengalis a broken heart that no bond could keep together and no balm could heal.

“To hell with the short, dark, cowardly Bengalis, they were a burden on our economy anyway. Good riddance!”

Sir, I cannot argue with this impeccable logic based on sound military and economic theory.

5. But the thorn is still residing in my heart and it is asking you, “Do you realise that the Bengalis are doing far better now in Bangladesh than they were in Pakistan? And the good Muslims, the Biharis (labeled Bhikaris or beggars by our great erstwhile Amir-ul-Momineen, Gen. Zia-ul-Haq) who supported a united Pakistan are still rotting away in the infamous “Geneva Camp”, homeless and stateless. And I guess it is relevant to remind you that you left a lot of Muslims back in India in 1947 too! Who is next on the list of your “Jamaican Farewell”?

6. Fast forward from 1971 to now. The country is splitting apart like a rag doll. The glue of Islam has come unstuck. It is not the infernal enemy India that has caused this. We are our own worst enemy. The Balochis are demanding a separate province. Parts of Pakistan are not in the control of the state. The demand for an autonomous Sindh is picking up steam. How do you explain this? All these people demanding independence are Muslims, not a Hindu or Sikh is to be seen. Reminds me of the famous poem about the five mice that set out to hunt and only one came back alive! I think you can guess who the last mouse left in the Islamic Republic is.

The secular / left-liberals claim that Pakistan was envisioned as a secular state. This group, ad nauseam, quotes M.A. Jinnah’s 11thAugust, 1947 speech that talks of equal rights for all religious groups in the newly formed Pakistan.

I pose the following questions to these well-meaning idealists:

1. Respected Sirs, if Mr. Jinnah had envisioned Pakistan as a secular state why did he bother to create it in the first place? Pre-partition India was secular and remains secular to this day.

2. If Pakistan was to be a secular state why do religious groups wield so much clout that even a so-called liberal, Mr. Bhutto, bowed down to their demand for banning alcohol (that he imbibed with a gusto himself) and declaring Ahmadis as non-Muslims? It is clear that the religious extremists have far greater power than their performance at the polls suggests. Acts of violence against minorities continue unabated. Draconian laws created by Zia-ul-Haq continue to thrive and no one dare repeal them.

Lastly, the Religious groups claim that Pakistan was created to be a “true” Islamic state where every aspect of life and death will be according to the tenets of Islam.

To this fine group of Islamic scholars and fighters, I ask how did they determine that “true” Islam forbids modern education, imposes severe restrictions on women, instructs elimination of non-Muslims or bans a good game like football?

I will not insist on an answer since it is most likely written on the tip of a bullet.

So now I am in a situation that the great Caribbean crooner Harry Belafonte found himself in when he asked his father to tell him about the birds and the bees:

It was clear as mud, but it covered the ground
And the confusion made my head go around

Therefore, friends, liberals/leftist/rightist/centrists, I am going to give my answer: get ready to swallow the bitter pill.

The Muslim extremists are morally right! The ideology of Pakistan is Islam (remember, everyone is Pakistan knows that). The creation of Pakistan gave the perfect weapon to the likes of TTP and LeT. A weapon that was more powerful than any nuclear device. They got a complete country called Pakistan, beautifully packaged in green, with a big card on it that said, “Made for Islam”. You can argue till the cows come home that the brand of Islam of the TTP is not the “Real Islam”. If theirs is not the real Islam can anyone present an alternative model of an Islamic state? Saudi Arabia? Afghanistan under the Taliban? Iran? (Sorry, these guys are Shias, thus non-Muslims). Mr. Bhutto tried to sell “Islamic Socialism”; he was hanged. Poor Mr. Salman Taseer just mentioned his dislike for the blasphemy law; he was killed and the killer was garlanded by no less than our lawyers.

No one can come up with such a model for the simple reason that a theocratic state cannot work in modern times.

I have no cure to offer. We cannot turn back the clock to 1947. However there are three minimum prerequisites for making a new start:

1. We must have the moral courage to privately and publicly declare that religion cannot be the basis for creating a nation-state. Once we have established this basic premise we do not let anyone – whether an elected representative or a religious extremist – use religion to exploit those honest, hardworking Pakistanis who are only seeking a square meal, some security of life and property, a decent education, healthcare and a little hope for the future.

2. We must insist that religion is a matter of one’s belief and faith and there can be no restriction on practicing it in the private realm, but that we must separate it from the affairs of the state.

3. We normalize our relationship with India and shift our priority from defense to regional cooperation. Internally, we divert our resources from national security to the social sector.

But I am afraid that none of the above will happen and we are more likely to hang the messenger.

Faiz Sahib, the thorn is out and the pain is gone and now as you said:

Ik mout ka dhanda baqi hey, uskko bhi hum nipta leingey.

(All that is now left is the business of death, and that too will be taken care of soon).
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by pgbhat »

Gagan wrote:No war pact?

This has been a very long standing demand of the pakeez, they've brought this up with ABV also.

I am quite sure some wily hidootva bunniya baboo, at the last minute, will want to include "proxy" war in that agreement too, to which pakis will decline.

And yet again we will be treated to that line, "the agreement was 99% final, but hardliners from the indian side scuttled the agreement"

This is con[gress] dangling a carrot in front of the pak fauj.
Where were you brother? Good to see you back. 8)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by rsingh »

Raja Ram wrote:Gentle Rakshaks,

The "No-War Pact" buzzword is to be seen in the right context. The re-elected President of the USA is committed to get his troops back from Afghanistan. He however, has to ensure there are no chance of any regrouping on both sides of the Durand line to create a base from where an attack on the US mainland or Europe can be be organized. The US is not bothered about what happens to India from these jehadis. Period. The NATO allies also want to pack and leave. But overall none want to relinquish control. Rule by proxy establishments in both Pakistan and Afghanistan looks increasingly bleak unless they cut a deal. To cut a deal, Pakis have to be brought on board. The only difference this time, the carrot for Pakistan is allowing them to exist as a nation by providing just enough life line - economically and more than enough military hardware to deter India in the event, they want to finish the Pakistan problem for good.

The Saudis do not want the base in Pakistan to go after their own regime - a likely possibility as the Khaki influence on their more holy bretheren continues to wane. The Chinese are scared about Xinjiang. Not many know that China faces two "Kashmirs" of their own - the one in Tibet and the one in Xinjiang. The latter has always been more bloody and they are seeking support from the Pakistanis.

The ownership cabals of Pakistan are all facing different kind of existential challenge or the other. The political lot are getting marginalized, the Khaki's are getting challenged by the Mullah mob, the Mullah mob is getting Droned, the Judiciary wants to emerge as another co-owner of the spoils, they feel left out and so they want to piss on all the others and mark territory.

If at all there is one point agenda where all these needs converge it is in the continuation of the artificial entity called Pakistan. For that to happen, Pakistan should be seen to get something. Something substantial. As usual, when it comes to giving to Pakistan, it is always expected that India gives Pakistan something. At times, Indus water, at times a pipeline revenue, at times free power, and at times giving up territory, be it Siachen or Sir Creek.

That hinges on the "Two Myths" foundation. One there is a need for a stable and prosperous Pakistan, it is in India's interest and is vital for its ascension into great power status. Two there is no alternative but to talk and resolve all issues with Pakistan because it is our neighbour.

For this many a lemon will be sold - Aman ki Asha, Security Council Seat, No war pact, great economic investments, oil and energy, high technology.

But gentle rakshaks, there will always be lemon sellers. It is for the Government of India and the leadership to recognise a lemon selling when it happens and deal with it. If you take a long range view of the past, the successive governments in India have always been wary of such lemons. However, there has also been instances when such lemons have been bought and sold to naive Indian public. Time will tell whether the present leadership comes out on the correct side.

Just a random ramble. Take it for what it is worth. :)
Very interesting analysis. Please find time to post more often Saar.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Satya_anveshi »

Welcome Pack, Gagan ji! :)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Anujan »

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nat ... print.html
U.S. military and intelligence officials said that Mullah Fazlullah, the mastermind of the attack on 15-year-old Malala Yousafzai, operates out a region adjoining Pakistan where several hundred U.S. troops are stationed. But they said finding Fazlullah is not a priority because he is not affiliated with al-Qaeda or with insurgents targeting U.S. and Afghan interests.

“Our guys just aren’t tracking him,” a senior Special Operations official said. “He is viewed as an ‘other-side-of-the-border’ problem.”
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Nandu »

http://tribune.com.pk/story/463357/bang ... ar-crimes/
Bangladesh seeks Pakistan apology for 1971 war crimes
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by pentaiah »

shiv wrote:I believe that if we set bravado aside and accept that we are afraid, a lot of actions become more easy to explain.

Who is the "we" here ???


:D Good question!

The statement should read:

"If we on BRF set bravado aside and accept that India the nation, represented by the political and financial managers are afraid of Pakistan a lot of actions become more easy to explain"

Electric power to Pakistan, visas, cricket, going soft on terror, feeble calls to stop terrorism, shooting Pakistanis with no more than a dossier are all hallmarks of a nation that is afraid of Pakistan. Having said that it is easy to misunderstand this statement of mine and ask if we should not be afraid. No. I think India the nation is right in being afraid of Pakistan. We don't want to get nuked even if we are able to destroy Pakistan in a war.
He who is here is We
And who are We to question
Patriotism is anyway last refuge to a scoundrel
Who are not here?
We should think a lot like this! :mrgreen:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by pentaiah »

Also No war pact means ours was fizzle :mrgreen:
And now time to let lose BARC against this no war pact


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Agnimitra »

Nandu wrote:http://tribune.com.pk/story/463357/bang ... ar-crimes/
Bangladesh seeks Pakistan apology for 1971 war crimes
Recently some popular Paki TV talk show hosts brought this subject up, to teach the new generation about lessons learned from Paki history, before they were born. They discussed the marginalization of Bengalis etc, but when it came to this genocide and rape, they cited the "latest research" of Sarmila Bose of Oxfart, that not more than 25K to 50K Bengalis were massacred, and that 3 million is pure Indian propaganda.

Before Sarmila Bose's Oxfart research, Pakis would lessen the burden of guilt by claiming that the great majority of the 3 million massacred were merely Hindoos living in the area, not Bangladeshi Moslems.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Rudradev »

Raja Ram wrote:Gentle Rakshaks,

The "No-War Pact" buzzword is to be seen in the right context. The re-elected President of the USA is committed to get his troops back from Afghanistan. He however, has to ensure there are no chance of any regrouping on both sides of the Durand line to create a base from where an attack on the US mainland or Europe can be be organized. The US is not bothered about what happens to India from these jehadis. Period. The NATO allies also want to pack and leave. But overall none want to relinquish control. Rule by proxy establishments in both Pakistan and Afghanistan looks increasingly bleak unless they cut a deal. To cut a deal, Pakis have to be brought on board. The only difference this time, the carrot for Pakistan is allowing them to exist as a nation by providing just enough life line - economically and more than enough military hardware to deter India in the event, they want to finish the Pakistan problem for good.

...

If at all there is one point agenda where all these needs converge it is in the continuation of the artificial entity called Pakistan. For that to happen, Pakistan should be seen to get something. Something substantial. As usual, when it comes to giving to Pakistan, it is always expected that India gives Pakistan something. At times, Indus water, at times a pipeline revenue, at times free power, and at times giving up territory, be it Siachen or Sir Creek.

That hinges on the "Two Myths" foundation. One there is a need for a stable and prosperous Pakistan, it is in India's interest and is vital for its ascension into great power status. Two there is no alternative but to talk and resolve all issues with Pakistan because it is our neighbour.

For this many a lemon will be sold - Aman ki Asha, Security Council Seat, No war pact, great economic investments, oil and energy, high technology.
Raja Ram ji, always a pleasure and an enlightening experience to read your "rambles"... I wish they came more often!

I do not disagree with anything you have said. But I'd like to raise an extension of your argument. You've very correctly pointed out that the US/West have no issue whatsoever with TSPA/ISI pointing the jihadi hose at India, as long as Islamabad can guarantee zero attacks on the West, once NATO leaves Afghanistan. However, I think the West has less reason than ever to expect Islamabad to deliver on such a guarantee.

Let us consider a situation where US/NATO pulls out in 2014. After that, TSPA/ISI starts up the J&K jihad, as well as nationwide Indian Mujahedin jihad again in full spate. US etc. will cluck their tongues and encourage India to "give more" to Pakistan in the interest of peace. In short it will be back to the 1990s (though perhaps a more bitter fight for India because the IM networks have penetrated deeply in many parts of the country.)

Yet, the very similarity to the 1990s begs the question: what happens next? Can Pakistan's jihadis be satiated with carte blanche to wage jihad against India? Unless India buckles before the assault... which we did not do during the 1990s... I think that's quite impossible. Of course we will lose lives, and of course there will be ill-effects to our economic development and so on; but the relative *advantage* of having a full-scale Paki jihadi pipeline turned on India is that it makes our electorate *less*, not more likely to tolerate any concession towards Pakistan. So, just as in the 1990s, we will stand firm, and we will kill the pigs in greater numbers than the rate at which they will be able to achieve any concrete result. The waves will dash against the sea-wall, break, recede, dash again... but the sea wall will remain standing.

Now we have to look at the effect of this on the Paki Jihadi establishment. After months and years of waging jihad against India with no concrete political benefit to show for it, they will be hard up for excuses when confronted by their "board of directors"... the Saudi, UAE, Qatari masters who finance their efforts and keep the Pakistani state itself alive through their largesse. The financiers will start demanding... "all that money we've given you, but there is no green flag over the red fort, and the Hindus still have Kashmir? What are you people doing? If you can't win in India, then at least fight the kaffirs elsewhere!"

Meanwhile the field leadership of jihadi organizations will start echoing similar thoughts. Continuously fighting and losing jihad in J&K will turn into a huge morale drain, and a recruitment catastrophe, if no victories can be claimed anywhere else. After all, it is hard to pretend that Allah is on your side if you never seem to achieve anything. The rank-and-file jihadis, too, will start clamouring to be sent against other regions of the world where "Islam is in danger"... and thanks to the recent, ongoing and emerging conflicts in West Asia there will be no dearth of opportunities.

This, too, is highly reminiscent of what happened with many AfPak jihadi groups, particularly the Deobandi ones, in the 1990s... India wasn't caving on J&K, and meanwhile the other "Islam in danger" zones, including West Asia, East Africa and the Balkans seemed to be greener pastures where at least some successes could be claimed against kaffirs. And that was at a time when the TSPA/ISI enjoyed high credibility with the pathan Jihadi groups thanks to their sponsorship of the Taliban! This time around, given the TSPA/ISI's recent history in AfPak, and the emergence of anti-Islamabad groups like TTP... the crisis point is likely to arrive much sooner.

This is the point at which the Pak Jihadi establishment (including TSPA and ISI) will find themselves unable to resist turning the jihadi hose back westwards.
They will HAVE to begin operations against the West and Western interests once again because it will be absolutely necessary to justify their existence in the face of continuous, attritive failure against India. India will suffer no doubt, but I have no doubt she will stand firm in the 2014-plus era, just as she stood firm as a much weaker nation of the 1990-2001 era. That's all it will take; re-emergence of a Pakistan-based jihad against the West is absolutely inevitable.

I think the US realizes this. That is why, as you have said, the pressure is on India to give concessions to Pakistan ahead of time... especially on things like Siachen, "soft borders" and visas, that will make India even more vulnerable when the jihadi hose turns on us full spate after 2014. But even that won't change the inevitable. Once the jihad on India starts again in full strength, India will harden and refuse to give more, and the jihadis will find themselves taking losses while gaining nothing. The crisis point will come, in as few as three years after the US withdrawal... and then it's African Embassies, USS Cole, 9/11 part two.

India must prepare for the worst, not just in terms of defensive internal security measures against the coming jihad; but pro-actively, by cultivating lethal proxies in Afghanistan that will divert some of the jihadi attention to Pakistan's western border and also maximize the costs of jihad to the TSPA/ISI leadership. Then all we have to do is hang in there.

The only way we can lose this game is by playing Prithviraj Chauhan and showing what the jihadis can portray as "weakness" in political resolve; either now, or post 2014. This, by the way, is why ANY concrete concession to Pakistan on things like visas, J&K "soft-borders", and especially Siachen is absolutely unthinkable... such things will only maximize the pain that we are due to feel from 2014 onwards, and may end up accruing long-term strategic losses for us in their wake.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Rudradev »

pentaiah wrote:Also No war pact means ours was fizzle :mrgreen:
And now time to let lose BARC against this no war pact


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Yes Umrao Jaan.

Our BARC is worse than our bite.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by pentaiah »

This no war is a genuine offer from MMS ( whose favorite movie is Do Ankhen Bara Haat de de)

It basically tells TS Pakistan feel free to use you non state actors and not regular army in conventional mode, that way you can continue with your habitual periodic itch and in turn we will using fax machines. The fax machines are idle for a very long time, the last use was when Kasab and friends toured India as tourists.

To be honest TSP does not need a war to bring India to kneel down, just activate the sleeper cells.
Its cheaper, effective and no brainer
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Vipul »

Sanku wrote:
negi wrote:MMS is talking about no war; such things make sense coming from who is capable of going on war in the first place. :rotfl:
Ok shooting from your shoulders Negi, not at you.

This "no war pact" is not a frivolous matter, although it appears to be one, like a simple chai-biskoot session, which means nothing, other than pandering to Paki ego and keeping them in good humor in hope of aman ki tamasha asha -- however; this is pretty obvious. Yet significant political and other capital is being invested, do those investing it not know what a joke this is, and if so, why are they doing it?

The answer is that this move is essentially a precursor, a move to create a preliminary back ground for later use. Some potential uses are

1) Withdrawal from Siachen -- "Since we now have a pact, we can safely bring our boys home from the cold freezing wasteland without worrying since there is no reason to fight anymore"

2) Reduction of IAs modernization plan/downsizing -- "Kindly factor in the new developments ruling out war with Pakistan and hence reduced threat perception, please use this to appropriate size the force and achieve cost savings to reduce the growing budget deficit"

Both the above are perfectly rational, solid & legal moves by GoI if it chooses to do so (some examples of a working scenario are SALT etc) -- HOWEVER this one as is obvious to every BRFite, is a fraud, since Pakistan will never keep its side of the bargain and in fact use the lull to gain military advantage -- so the pitfall is obvious -- but still we may fear that certain folks (esp at the helm) in GoI might want to do this for their own reasons -- of course we do not have to worry about this right now since we know that Man Mohan Singh, has great regard for Indian security and other interests, as seen by his stand during PoK II tests, at Havana, at Sharm-el-Sheik during the Nuclear deal debate in parliament etc. and by having ask his Home minister to forget about 26/11 and play cricket.

However in future we may not have the able leadership of Dr Manmohan Singh, and therefore, we must be careful that Dr Singh doe NOT enter into a agreement which may be dangerous in future less competent hands.
You are looking for too many reasons why Murkh Mohan Singh is entering into a No War pact when the answer is obvious plain and simple. Only Cowards need a reason to hide behind an agreement to escape from taking a decision to wage a rightful war.
Last edited by Vipul on 10 Nov 2012 05:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Post by Virupaksha »

pentaiah wrote:This no war is a genuine offer from MMS ( whose favorite movie is Do Ankhen Bara Haat de de)

It basically tells TS Pakistan feel free to use you non state actors and not regular army in conventional mode, that way you can continue with your habitual periodic itch and in turn we will using fax machines. The fax machines are idle for a very long time, the last use was when Kasab and friends toured India as tourists.

To be honest TSP does not need a war to bring India to kneel down, just activate the sleeper cells.
Its cheaper, effective and no brainer
You mean even these below did not occur??
13 July 2011 - Three coordinated bomb explosions at different locations, killing 26
13 February 2010 - a bomb explosion at the German Bakery in Pune killed fourteen people, and injured at least 60 more
1 August 2012 - four bomb explosion at various locations on JM Road, Pune injured 1 person
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