The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

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Pranav
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by Pranav »

RajeshA wrote:
Pranav wrote: IMHO, Christianity and Islam each need to be understood separately.

In the case of Christianity, the Church organizations are political animals and are tools of neo-imperialistic machination. But there is the possibility of the founder being absorbed into a Dharmic framework.

In the case of Islam there does not seem to be any possibility of the founder being compatible with a Dharmic framework.
Perhaps I should say Christianism instead of Christianity to emphasize the role of the Church.
Pranav wrote:But arguably, the political, neo-imperialistic challenge from Islamism is less coherent and organized as compared with the Church.
This is debatable. Islam just works differently but I would call it more driven and effective. In a few decades Islam would have taken over Europe - the bastion of Christianity.
Over the past few centuries, almost all Church denominations have been tamed and harnessed to the cause of western neo-imperialism. But traditional Church denominations holding out against neo-imperialism have been targeted at various points of time. Witness the fate of the Russian Orthodox Church, at the hands of the Bolsheviks. Liquidation of priests, destruction of cathedrals was rampant. Western neo-imperialism seeks to destroy traditional Christianity in its homelands of Europe and North America.

So your comment about Islam in Europe does not really tell us anything about the strength of Islamism vs neo-imperialist Church denominations on Indian soil.

This is a digression, there is a thread in the Burqaa forum that discusses western neo-imperialism.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

Hindu & Bharatiya

Atri
Atri wrote:But there was a crucial change that was happening in west. West had begun its journey of departing from abrahmic idealism (literalism) and slowly began to return to their Roman ways. The whole reformation, renaissance, french revolution and gradual decline in stature of religion from public lives seen in west. This has given rise to secularism and western civilization.

There is huge difference between abrahmic onslaught and secular onslaught (although it started through abrahmic people. It includes Communism). Hindus, by the means of Loksangraha, managed to overthrow the domination of "people with religion" - it was out and out religious struggle. First against Muslims, then against Christians (1857). Heck, even the independence movement was a "religious" movement where Hindus fought to liberate their country and the native others simply piggy-backed.

But the nature of enemy had changed drastically by then. It required different "super-ego" to make people come together against west. The deracination makes it difficult to think in mind and answer the crucial question - What is mine and what is not mine - which inturn begs the answer to the fundamental question of all - Koham (who am I)..

...

There is no identity to rally against the third demon which is clear and present danger. The taqleef with "Hindu" which is been shouted is this. But those shouting and cursing "Hindu" should understand that it is very much relevant and essential identity and them cursing it is only going to hurt them. They are shouting against "Hindu" seeing its impotence against secularism and nehruvianism, without looking at its efficacy against abrahmic. The proponents of "Hindu" OTOH, should realize that it indeed is impotent against secularism and nehruvianism and new identity is required to facilitate the "Loksangraha" of Sajjana people..
Atri garu,

Nehruvianism consists of Westernism, Secularism and Socialism.

Nehruvian-Socialism itself consists of Nationalized Industry, Licence-Raj and Welfare (Handout) State. Some of it has been done away with, while some is still being promoted.

Nehruvian-Westernism was basically Macaulayism. It is still entrenched in media, education and national discourse. But there has been substantial discrediting of it, and through alternative media, may one day have to concede defeat. I consider the later Globalism a separate phenomenon.

Nehruvian-Secularism is basically a thin but solid veneer to hide sheer Islamo-Christianism underneath and is based on cooking the Hindu frog on low heat.

Atri
Atri wrote:7. I am merely asking to acknowledge the presence of second antagonistic globalizing force (I request you all to help me name this force, I am not able to find an apt name) which has forced us to have a dharmarthik identity. Hindu identity is religious identity which is good while engaging with Muslims an Christians. My emphasis on Hindu has nothing to do with what some Sikhs and Buddhists think. I call them as "hindus". We are facing two-pronged threat, hence we need two faces to address them both.

8. Like Ganda-Berunda, we need a body with two faces (Hindu and another dharmaarthik identity) to tackle two foes - Abrahmism and Globalizing western secularism, respectively. (a suggestion for new name would be appreciated)
The answer to Abrahamist Ideologies is indeed 'Hindu', the answer however to Globalizing Western Secularism is 'Bharatiya'.

The identity 'Bharatiya' is all about feeling pride in the native, in the Bharatiya Sabhyata and all that it entails. The answer to uprooting phenomena like Globalization can only be better rooting in the Native.

I had written earlier
RajeshA wrote:IMHO 7 foundation stones for Bharatiyas should be -
  1. Bharatiya/Hindu - Civilizational Identification - Thorough Study of our Pre-Islamic History and our Resistance to Mlecchas, Love for Bharat, Kshatriyata
  2. Samskaras - Religious Allegiance - Practice of Religious Rituals and Festivals, Bhakti
  3. Dharma - Philosophical Enlightenment - Deep Learning of our Scriptures, Exploring new ways to Truth
  4. Sanskrit - Link and Operating System Language
  5. Sanskriti - Cultural Immersion - Immersion in Bharatiya Music, Dance, Art, Architecture, Interior Decoration, Cuisine, Fashion, Aesthetics
  6. Parampara - Social Traditions - Respect for Gurus, Elders, Generational Continuity, Family
  7. Vidya, Artha, Karma - This-Worldly Knowledge, Innovation, Sciences, etc.
To that I would add that we need to create a 21st century coolness to our ancient culture, introducing new things accordingly, but this should be done trying to ignore the Sufi influence as well as influence of Macaulayist Era.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

Hindu, Bharatiya, Dharmic, Indian, Indic

'Hindu' defines us in relation to our civilizational challenges and the Adharma wrought on us, by prescribing a resistance to it. 'Hindu' defines us by providing a "Definition of Negative Content", telling us what we are not and against what we have to fight. It is an 'aarthik' marker.

'Bharatiya' defines us in relation to our civilizational past and the Dharma that ruled in Bharat before the Adharma took over. 'Bharatiya' defines us by providing a "Definition of Positive Content", telling us who we are and what we should rejoice being. It is a 'sanskritik' marker.

'Bharatiya' defines us over the time-space - Bharatiya Civilization reigning over Bharatvarsha, which is also the temporal time-space anchor of all Dharmic Sampradayas in India. However if we wish, we can refer to ourselves as "Dharmics" as well, using a collective term for the Sampradays. 'Dharmics" also defines us by providing a "Definition of Positive Content", albeit only a list of the various Sampradays. It is a 'religious' marker.

Hindu, Bharatiya and Dharmics provide the three identity markers which can be useful as political, civilizational/cultural and religious markers.

Of course 'Indian' is also there. No way should we disinvest from this 'identity', which is to be considered as equivalent of Bharatiya. It is foreign and may not carry the same sentimentality, but for strategic reasons the ownership of this 'identity' marker should be retained.

As far as Indic is concerned, I believe it is an identity marker without any revolutionary zeal to it. It is useful for differentiating Indians who are non-Abrahamics from those who are Abrahamics in India in a context where one is more or less agreeable to the present political structure of India. But this identifier is also useful to underline the indigenousness of the Dharmics and foreign origin of the Abrahamics in a non-provocative fashion.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

What Secularism?

I'm re-posting a few of my posts here, changing tack from cultural/religious identities to political identities and visions!

The ideological platforms available today in India
RajeshA wrote:I think the Hindu nationalists have played along with INC's mantra of secularism for too long. Basically there is no "secular platform" in India.

The ideological platforms available today in India are

1) Bharatiya Nationalist Platform (Hindus, RSS, BJP, Neo-Dharmists, ...)

2) Jaati-based Platform (BSP, SP, etc.)

3) Islamo-Christianist Platform ( Congress, Janta Party offsprings, Islamist parties, Christianist orgs)

4) Cultural Marxist Platform (Communist parties intent on destroying any culture of the majority)

5) Yuppie Platform (Indian Elite enamored by West, ignorant of Indian values, Economic progress above all else)

6) Macaulayite Platform (Congress, Media, ...)

These are the six ideological platforms. There is no "secular" platform. What we call "Secular" Platform is actually just a claim by the last four platforms together, and all these four platforms are in fact against Indian Civilization and Culture. The second platform based on "Jaati-Consciousness" is really the swing platform.

By rejecting any existence of any "Secular" platform, even in the form of "Pseudo-Secular", one gets to the reality of what is going on. So let's start using the correct terminology.

Just a humble suggestion!
Islamo-Christianist Combined Platform
RajeshA wrote:It would be wrong to abbreviate the "Islamo-Christianist" Platform label. It is actually the hidden or not-so-hidden Christianist aspect of the platform that gives it respectability. When one says "Islamist" for Congress, it would not sound convincing, because people would start thinking that the leadership does not have any Islamist credentials.

The labels of the platforms are for Indian consumption and introspection, and not meant for the Westerners. The Westerners have to decide whether the support they are willing to give to the "Islamo-Christianist" platform is worth it, because it facilitates not only Christianist agenda but also Islamist agenda. It may subdue the "Bharatiya Nationalist" agenda, but over the long term, they would end up supporting the Islamization of India, and not our Christianization necessarily.

From the Indian PoV, the label "Islamo-Christianist" is important, because it tells of the pact between these two groups, how Islamic street muscle and Christianist media monopoly together prop up this setup all in the name of "secularism". Without telling the Indians about the pact that exists between the two, they will not understand why the purportedly "secular" leaders support Islamist resurgence in India, why the media do not criticize Muslims.

There is a substantive group carrying Hindu names which oversees to the interests of the "Islamo-Christianist" Platform, which confuses the people. This group is wedded to the whole platform in general for various reasons like political power, influence, etc. even if some of them would neither identify themselves as Islamic nor as Christianist. They simply nurture the bridge, the pact between the two. This group also gets promoted in the setup because their Hindu names help this platform hide its true nature and agenda. They serve the Islamo-Christianist Platform in lieu for this influence. And they are to be found all over the media especially. For this platform it is absolutely crucial to hide its true nature and the pact that is in place.

Lets also not forget that the "Islamo-Christianist" Platform also tries to form alliances with other ideological platforms - the Macaulayists, the Yuppies, the Cultural Marxists and often with the Jaati-Conscious also.
Redeemability
RajeshA wrote:The Macaulayists, the Yuppies, and the Jaati-Conscious can all be saved and be redeemed, except perhaps the hard-core, but the "Islamo-Christianists", the "Cultural Marxists" are not redeemable.

However considering that Marxism has in the world overall taken a beating, there may be a shimmer of light, but Maoists/Naxalites are kept in steady state of agitation for any redemption, for bringing them back into the fold, for dialogue and they are also too strongly controlled by PRC, and often supported by others simply for their contribution to anarchy.
Islamist Political Platform in India
RajeshA wrote:
RajeshA wrote:When one says "Islamist" for Congress, it would not sound convincing, because people would start thinking that the leadership does not have any Islamist credentials.
Arjun wrote:Lets say the argument is "What Islamist? How do you define Islamist?" one counter is to ask what they mean by calling BJP a Hindutva party. How do you define Hindutva? And since defining Hindutva is no easy task in itself, its kind of easy to followup with an == between BJP as Hindutva and INC as Islamist based on which vote-bank the parties seek to appeal to.

If you think you can popularize 'Islamo-Christianist' then that's fine, but if it turns out you need something more catchy Islamist is also defensible.
When I say Islamist, then I mean
  1. supported by Gulf money
  2. supportive of Islam's expansion in India - through
    1. geographic expansion;
    2. increased birth rate;
    3. migration of Bangladeshis and Pakis;
    4. consolidation of Muslim ghettos;
    5. consolidation of Mullah's control over the Muslim masses;
    6. elevation of Mullahs as the legitimate dialogue partners w.r.t. issues involving the Muslim community;
    7. tolerance of Muslim mafia, underworld and muscle;
  3. Appeasement of Kashmiri separatists and Pakistanis
  4. supportive of Islamic-British historical narrative at the cost Indian Civilizational history
However Congress can push back any labeling of it as "Islamist" because it can quote its historical role as opposition to Muslim League, its opposition to Two-Nation Theory, etc. This is all legacy and something that happened a long time ago, and under the guidance of more stalwarts than just the monopoly on power of Nehru-Gandhi dynasty!

The Congress trick is to portray the ideological fragmentation of Indian polity as something between "Secular" forces and "Hindutvavadis". Many other ideological platforms also are happy to play this game.

Because the Indian Muslims vote strategically, they know how to play the various parties and let the "Islamo-Christianist" Platform compete with other platforms for their votes - the Cultural Marxists (who are against only the majority culture), and the opportunist Jaati-conscious parties (who too are open to such alliances). That is how the Muslim vote bank ensures that ideologically there is an understanding between the various platforms on the national level, supportive of Islamic expansion in India.

And because there is this competition for Muslim votes, Bharatiyas get the impression that Congress is not per se "Islamo-Christianist", which also suits Congress, because it allows them to get the votes of others as well, as their true nature can thus be clouded and hidden.

The Macaulayites, the Yuppies, the Communist-minded, the Jaati-conscious common people all thus fooled to support the "Islamo-Christianist" agenda because of this deceptive label of "Secularism".

That is why it is important to speak out all the various platforms individually and to reject the existence of "Secular Platform"
Fickle Yuppies
RajeshA wrote:
Sushupti wrote:Has UPA killed the India growth story?

http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-sh ... 130128.htm
Arjun wrote:Why would the UPA want the urban middle class to grow in size when that class clearly abhors medieval dynastic politics ?
Well the urban middle class also has a repository of Yuppies, and Yuppies are actually a very fickle constituency. Till now INC was able to convince them with Indian SoopaPauer, Indian Growth Story, India-Amreeka Nuclear Bhai-Bhai, "Singh is Kinng, Singh is Kinng" jingles, etc., but when they hear about Indian economy collapsing under the leadership of INC and hear about NaMo bringing in 49,405 crores investment to Gujarat, more than all the rest combined, then the Yuppie also starts thinking - Is it time to jump ship?
Nehruvian Secularism
RajeshA wrote:Nehruvian-Secularism is basically a thin but solid veneer to hide sheer Islamo-Christianism underneath and is based on cooking the Hindu frog on low heat.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by Atri »

RajeshA wrote:
The answer to Abrahamist Ideologies is indeed 'Hindu', the answer however to Globalizing Western Secularism is 'Bharatiya'.

The identity 'Bharatiya' is all about feeling pride in the native, in the Bharatiya Sabhyata and all that it entails. The answer to uprooting phenomena like Globalization can only be better rooting in the Native.
Bhaartiya has its own drawback, although it works fine on other occasions. It is bound by territory and time. Which Bhaarat? mughal Bhaarat, British Bhaarat OR Republic of Bhaarat.. Bhaarat of 13th august 1947 OR 15th august 1947..

The point is, Bhaarat has kept on changing according to rising and falling valor of those people who are referred to as "Hindus" in past 1000 years. As Bhaarat changes, so does "Bhaaratiya".. For example, Hindus have forgotten about Kapisha (Kabul) and Takshashila today.. It remains a distant memory, but no fervent "claim" in common narrative.

"Hindutva" had this ability to transcend the space-time barriers that "Bhaaratiya" faces, but has been compromised and engulfed by "hindu" post RJB movement. It could stand against and answer Nehruvian Westernism-socialism-secularism on all aspects. We had (and have) the enormous literature expounding "Hindu polity" by like minded people which could have been a dharmaarthik alternative to Nehruvian westernism. But.....

We need something akin to "Hindutva" which could appeal intellectual and emotionally to people and which could create an umbrella to shield and answer the questions posed by Nehruvianism (with all three subsets), as well as give an alternative dharmaarthik narrative of our own..
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by ShauryaT »

devesh wrote: Also, the word "India" was also given by "foreigners", yet we are using it without any complaints, no? even "Indic" is but a variant of "India". yet, not much opposition to that.
Most "Indics" prefer the word Bharat. I wish the constitution said Bharat, that is India, instead of India, that is Bharat. Hair splitting, maybe. I personally have a problem with the use and prominence of English language itself, the biggest deracination of all. Shame on me and all of us to be using it, promoting it at the cost of a common unifying language, which could be Sanskrit based. Do not care which one was used, the issue should have been forced. It still can be. Unfortunately, English has become the only route to success within India today. But, the rot starts at the top. Our constitution and laws should have NEVER been written in English in the first place, however that is the only language the lawyers knew how to frame laws in!! If it were upto me, I would do a complete roll back of our constitution - which BTW is nothing unconstitutional.

We either get comfortable with who we are and what we stand for or continue to react to differences with others, sometimes accommodating their thoughts (macuaylite camp) or sometimes revolting against some others to form our own sectarian protections (Hindutva Camp). Ofcourse, in all this the Universal nature of SD is what is compromised - if not by design then by default.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by ShauryaT »

Rudradev wrote:
What I am talking about with "Dharma" is quite different... it is not a question of translation at all but it's use in INDIAN languages. Like it or not, it is used as the abstract term implying a belief system. And it has been so for nearly a thousand years. There is no question of a few English speakers like ourselves "reclaiming" it. "Reclaiming" from whom? Our own people?

For example: you go to any house in North India where some variety of Hindi is spoken. Ask the people there to define: "what is Islam?" I guarantee you that, in providing the definition, the people of most houses will use the term "Dharam". As for example "Islam Dharam ka ek prakaar hai" etc. The people concerned may have contempt or hatred for Islam but for the most part they will still use "Dharam" to define what Islam is.

Are you, or Shaurya, or Harbans ji going to go house-to-house in each and every town and village to re-educate all these people about what "Dharmic" means in their own language, in their own usage?

Do we not have a better use for our time and energy than that? All because some people have taqleef with the far more contextually-established and specific term "Hindu"!
We have our own language, terms and ideas. The past 1000 years of the usage of that term reminds me of only one thing - our subjugation. Why should I not reject that term and use my own such as "Sanatani" or "Arya". Should I now stop using Arya because Hitler ******** that word. How about the Swastika? When will this reaction business and difference anxieties (a popular RM term) stop? My words, my symbols are my own. It is up to us to protect them and propagate them accurately. If a Hindu says Mohammedi dharma, there are two things probably going on. The poor Hindu does not know what dharma is in its ideas and values and systems and even if he does, may not know what Islam's corresponding ideas, values and systems are. No dharmic person once educated (yes, it is our duty to ensure dharmic education is mandatory for all Indians) on both ideas, will dare call Islam another dharm, except for those who are severely deracinated and do not have the guts to stand up for their own convictions. An educated dharmic individual will recognize Islam as adharma and his only mission is to vanquish these adharmic memes. This is non-negotiable for a dharmic person, once the adharmic nature of Islam is proven beyond all doubt. Either SD is the only religion or all others are religions and SD is not. Dharma is only that which is Sanatan, eternal. Only Truth is eternal. This education is essential.

MKG had it right. Truth is god. There are pathways to test truth. The first job is to give up dogma on all sides.

Coming to the term Hindu, it was a geographical marker. India that is Bharat, fought its independence under the label of Hindustaan. The muslims, hindus, sikhs, and christians of Hindustaan were all fighting for independence. The muslims sought to demarcate themselves from that sectarian marker and asked for Pakistan. In the deracinated minds of our founders, to appease muslims, the name Hindustaan was dropped. Now look at the evolution of this term. The founders of our nation decide to "drop" ALL of our civilizational heritage and its teachings and learnings and adopt a "foreign" milieu, under the guise of "secularism". A reaction again by dharmics to resist being sectarian.

The adherents of dharma, recognizing this inherent conflict seek to organize themselves in socio-political environments. This drama of sectarian impulses, which is a reaction to “others” and the inherent universal nature of dharmics to resist sectarianism by way of “secularity” needs to stop. The biggest loss in all this has been that the ideas of dharma, its values, principles and systems have been short changed. Fast forward to current times, the SC led by justice verma in 2002, lumps ALL non Abrahamic faiths as Hindu. Not out of some design, but because the eminient justice did not know, how else to define it. The terms Hindutva, Hindu and Hinduism cannot be parsed to say one is acceptable and the other is not. My biggest issue is not the term itself but the ideas it represents. I reject the sectarian impulses the term seeks to denote, if the term can be matched to ideas that most can identify with easily to the values of SD, then no issues.

Is democracy the preserve of any single group today? Democracy is an idea, which carries with it certain systems, values and principles of governance. The ideas of SD, ought to be such, if they are true and universal. Bharat can be its founding member, but let the ideas of SD travel far and wide and be recognized as such. Hindu or Hinduism has no such chance for it will forever be mired in the cycle of sectarian impulses to protect when threatened and appeasement by the weak . SD inherently detests sectarianism.

PS RD: RM is not the first one to do purva-paksha in the contemporary era. Ram Swarup has been doing that since the 1950’s on communism, Islam and the west. Sita Ram Goel and Arun Shourie both considered Ram Swarup as a guru of sorts. The works and impact that these gentlemen have had on purva-paksha and the polity and intellectual thought process of India is for you to judge. I wish RM all success in his chosen path.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RamaY »

ShauryaT wrote:Most "Indics" prefer the word Bharat. I wish the constitution said Bharat, that is India, instead of India, that is Bharat. Hair splitting, maybe. I personally have a problem with the use and prominence of English language itself, the biggest deracination of all. Shame on me and all of us to be using it, promoting it at the cost of a common unifying language, which could be Sanskrit based. Do not care which one was used, the issue should have been forced. It still can be. Unfortunately, English has become the only route to success within India today. But, the rot starts at the top. Our constitution and laws should have NEVER been written in English in the first place, however that is the only language the lawyers knew how to frame laws in!! If it were upto me, I would do a complete roll back of our constitution - which BTW is nothing unconstitutional.
+1.
We either get comfortable with who we are and what we stand for or continue to react to differences with others, sometimes accommodating their thoughts (macuaylite camp) or sometimes revolting against some others to form our own sectarian protections (Hindutva Camp). Ofcourse, in all this the Universal nature of SD is what is compromised - if not by design then by default.
If we go thru SD in any form, it is universal in its world view. That doesnt mean it accepted everything everyone did. It made a conscious effort to identity and destroy asuric memes again and again and again.

There is a major difference between having a universal world view while destroying asuric memes AND accepting asuric memes as part of that universal being as equals. I think the I am proposing take the former position where as ShauryaT garu takes the later position.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RamaY »

MKG had it right. Truth is god. There are pathways to test truth. The first job is to give up dogma on all sides.
With lot of humility and great respect for MKG -

MKG's truth is also a dogma. He was not truthful in his own transactions with other Bharatiyas. All he did was to "experiment" with truth.

MKG asked others to use Truth as 10.2 without any context or purpose.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by member_20317 »

SharuyaT ji, my opinion is that your lament at having to use the opponents language may not be valid.

You see it allows us to 'spy' on the opponent too. Had we limited ourselves to Indic languages we probably would never have been able to do a first hand comparative study.

And comparative study gives the initiative right back into our hands.

The best of west is trying to read invalid translations to link themselves to their real past to get to their real past. OTOH we already are tied up to our real past (mostly) and have the additional benefit of taking all the comparative evaluation to our people who can judge for its worth at a very Atmic (first hand) level.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

Atri wrote:
RajeshA wrote:
The answer to Abrahamist Ideologies is indeed 'Hindu', the answer however to Globalizing Western Secularism is 'Bharatiya'.

The identity 'Bharatiya' is all about feeling pride in the native, in the Bharatiya Sabhyata and all that it entails. The answer to uprooting phenomena like Globalization can only be better rooting in the Native.
Bhaartiya has its own drawback, although it works fine on other occasions. It is bound by territory and time. Which Bhaarat? mughal Bhaarat, British Bhaarat OR Republic of Bhaarat.. Bhaarat of 13th august 1947 OR 15th august 1947..

The point is, Bhaarat has kept on changing according to rising and falling valor of those people who are referred to as "Hindus" in past 1000 years. As Bhaarat changes, so does "Bhaaratiya"..
Atri garu,

IMHO we should differentiate 'Bharatiya' identity from identity as Indian Citizen. Sure one can call an Indian citizen 'Bharatiya' as well thus overloading the semantic, but I at least don't have a problem with that confusion as it can actually work in favor of the 'Bharatiya' identity I speak of.

'Bharatiya' should be considered a state of mind. The allegiance is solely to the idealized Bharatiya Civilization (without any Abrahamic political and social influence) and the interest of Bharatvarsha regardless of the size of Bharat at any given time.

Bharatiya Dharma would be:
  1. Expansion of Bharatvarsha to its maximum historical extent is of course one such interest (Akhand Bharat being an intermediate step).
  2. Ensuring Bharatvarsha to be under Dharmic/Hindu leadership sworn to the upkeep of Bharatiya Civilization solely.
  3. Expending effort to promote the health and flourishing of Bharatiya Civilization.
Atri wrote:For example, Hindus have forgotten about Kapisha (Kabul) and Takshashila today.. It remains a distant memory, but no fervent "claim" in common narrative.
The claim is not made perhaps because one still has many more miles to go before one reaches Kapisa. If Kapisa belonged once to Bharatvarsha than that is written in stone, and can be taken up anytime the Bharatiyas feel that it should be their next target.
Last edited by RajeshA on 12 Feb 2013 21:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RamaY »

Coming to the term Hindu, it was a geographical marker. India that is Bharat, fought its independence under the label of Hindustaan. The muslims, hindus, sikhs, and christians of Hindustaan were all fighting for independence. The muslims sought to demarcate themselves from that sectarian marker and asked for Pakistan. In the deracinated minds of our founders, to appease muslims, the name Hindustaan was dropped. Now look at the evolution of this term. The founders of our nation decide to "drop" ALL of our civilizational heritage and its teachings and learnings and adopt a "foreign" milieu, under the guise of "secularism". A reaction again by dharmics to resist being sectarian.
When Hindu is made into the proud and confident identity of Dharmic people and also Bharatiyas, then it will stop becoming a burden.

If deracinated minds of our founders, to appease, Muslims, dropped the name Hindustan; Why did we start this thread with the objective of leaving Hindu/Hinduism identity to appease the mythical dharmics who are Maculyte Hindus or minorities?

In our eagerness to "accommodate" others we are losing ourselves.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

Savarkar considered himself a Nastik, and he defined 'Hindu' as independent of Sanatan Dharma. His 'Hindu' did not have anything to do with the Trojan Horse "Hinduism". He considered Sanataniks, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists all to be Hindus.His definition for 'Hindu' included Bharatiya atheists as well like himself. All these resisted conversions to Islam or Christianity and so they were HINDUS.

Essentials of Hindutva
Author: V.D. Savarkar
Publication Date: 1922
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

ShauryaT wrote:India that is Bharat, fought its independence under the label of Hindustaan. The muslims, hindus, sikhs, and christians of Hindustaan were all fighting for independence.
The proper label should have been Aryavrata to differentiate between Aryas and Mlecchas.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RamaY »

RajeshA wrote:Savarkar considered himself a Nastik, and he defined 'Hindu' as independent of Sanatan Dharma. His 'Hindu' did not have anything to do with the Trojan Horse "Hinduism". He considered Sanataniks, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists all to be Hindus.His definition for 'Hindu' included Bharatiya atheists as well like himself. All these resisted conversions to Islam or Christianity and so they were HINDUS.

Essentials of Hindutva
Author: V.D. Savarkar
Publication Date: 1922
So this does tell us something. That patriotic Atheist Bharatiya do not have any issue with Hindu identity.

Going back to my main question? WHO ARE uncomfortable with Hindu identity? I remember even Zakir Nayak say he is a Hindu to the fact that he came from Hindustan :P That covers all Zakir Nayak followers as well.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

Hindusthan
RamaY wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Savarkar considered himself a Nastik, and he defined 'Hindu' as independent of Sanatan Dharma. His 'Hindu' did not have anything to do with the Trojan Horse "Hinduism". He considered Sanataniks, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists all to be Hindus.His definition for 'Hindu' included Bharatiya atheists as well like himself. All these resisted conversions to Islam or Christianity and so they were HINDUS.

Essentials of Hindutva
Author: V.D. Savarkar
Publication Date: 1922
So this does tell us something. That patriotic Atheist Bharatiya do not have any issue with Hindu identity.

Going back to my main question? WHO ARE uncomfortable with Hindu identity? I remember even Zakir Nayak say he is a Hindu to the fact that he came from Hindustan :P That covers all Zakir Nayak followers as well.
Somebody should tell Zakir Naik that Hindusthan was a geographical marker only till before the invasion and occupation of India by Islam and Islam's spread. Till then Hindu too simply meant somebody from the geography of Hindusthan. That however changed after the advent and spread of Islam in Hindusthan.

Till then Hindusthan => Hindus

Hindus were those who came from Hindusthan.

After the advent of Islam, it became the other way round

Afterwards Hindus => Hindusthan

The meaning of Hindus changed after the advent of Islam. Hindus meant those people of Bharatvarsha who resisted Islam and Christianity. Hence Hindusthan began to mean "the land that rightfully belonged to the Hindus".

Zakir Naik cannot be a Hindu, unless he is a Raa Agint!
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by ShauryaT »

There is a major difference between having a universal world view while destroying asuric memes AND accepting asuric memes as part of that universal being as equals. I think the I am proposing take the former position where as ShauryaT garu takes the later position.
No I am not but I am in no hurry to make enemies when my own body is weak.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RamaY »

But RajeshA garu,

Isn't the whole exercise of denouncing Hindu/Hinduism identity is to attract everyone, including Zakir Nayaks?

Or Did I miss the whole discussion?

What is the objective of Harbansji/ShauryaTji's project?
1/ That there are Dharmics all over the world.
2/ Need of the hour is to bring all of them together under an unified command.
3/ Dharmics worldwide are not coming under the Dharmic fold only because today Dharma/Dharmic is tightly intertwined with Hindu/Hinduism identity. {My contention being why would a Dharmic have any problem with Hindu identity, given the fact that these two are so intertwined. The supporting argument being since Hindu identity also includes rituals and non-Hindu dharmics do not want these rituals.}
4/ By separating Dharma from Hinduism we can bring all these Dharmics together
5/ Then what do these Dharmics plan to do? {Are they going to fight Adharma in all its Avatars? Can they count of the Dharmics from Other faiths?}

...
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by ShauryaT »

RajeshA wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:India that is Bharat, fought its independence under the label of Hindustaan. The muslims, hindus, sikhs, and christians of Hindustaan were all fighting for independence.
The proper label should have been Aryavrata to differentiate between Aryas and Mlecchas.
From a geographical marker, the name Bharat is already there in the constitution. We are bhartiya. The name Bharat has always denoted a geography, even if that geography was larger in certain times. God willing, it shall become larger in the future too. But, again, no hurry. Let us first make ourselves worthy of this Bharatvarsha, protect what we have and become strong to stand up to our enemies in ALL dimensions of power, hard and soft.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

ShauryaT wrote:
There is a major difference between having a universal world view while destroying asuric memes AND accepting asuric memes as part of that universal being as equals. I think the I am proposing take the former position where as ShauryaT garu takes the later position.
No I am not but I am in no hurry to make enemies when my own body is weak.
Actually there is no such thing as not making an enemy of an Islamic when one's body is weak.

The Islamic is by de-fault an enemy of the Kufr, so one can't make him more of an enemy, when the body is weak.

When the body is weak, it will either be assimilated or would systematically be made still weaker, there would no coming out of this weak body.

You can however provoke a reaction when your body is strong, and you try to destroy asuric memes, but at least then you have a chance of succeeding.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by ShauryaT »

For me: A better identification with our values, usage, identification and history. Rejection of foreign sources. Better control over how the derivatives of the words used evolve. By using Dharma, it is easier to add the qualifier Sanatan to it. It has historical support. Sanatani Hindu anyone? By using the word Dharma - the separation from other belief systems and "religions" is instant. no more equal-equal business. Tapping into our rich heritage becomes easy. I have dharma shastras to tap into. My constitution does not have to fly from 5000-8000 miles. ALL my works that acted as law givers can be tapped into.

RamaY: You need to stop seeing ghosts. If you think the label "Hindu" is better served to do the above and our practitioners can be made comfortable with that word and be adopted - all power to you.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RamaY »

ShauryaT wrote: From a geographical marker, the name Bharat is already there in the constitution. We are bhartiya. The name Bharat has always denoted a geography, even if that geography was larger in certain times. God willing, it shall become larger in the future too. But, again, no hurry. Let us first make ourselves worthy of this Bharatvarsha, protect what we have and become strong to stand up to our enemies in ALL dimensions of power, hard and soft.
I agree with this tactical position. Let us first make citizens of current India Bharatiyas.

For that first we need to define what that Bharatiyaness means. I think Your/Harbans thinks it should be based on a set of Dharmic qualities. Those things can be enshrined in the Constitution and put entire Rashtra power behind them. We don't have to call it Hindu.

* To be fair, I think the current Constitution of India does this ~80-90%. It doesn't overtly support any Adharmic deeds (except things like freedom of religious propagation to Abrahamic faiths). And rashtra power is also attached to it. The problem is that the individuals behind this rashtra power are mainly Macualite Putras to the core.

* By defeating the C-system and installing the people who demonstrated good governance (Refer NM's SRCC speech - He achieved what he achieved under the same constitution, laws, governance model, administration, citizenry, funds, and so on...) we can achieve 90% Dharmic levels first.

* That would convince the citizenry of Bharat to take the Dharmic Quotient of the Constitution to the next level.

* That momentum can be used usher Historical, Cultural, Academic revival of Bharat.

* That revival would make the Hindu majority to get away from their stringent rituals; which are their self-protection mechanisms in view of the Adharmic onslaught.

* That will make Hinduism as Dharmic ++ taking the civilizational evolution from material well being to intellectual well being.

* That will pave the way for separated Dharmic entities/regions/populations to return to Bharatiya fold.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

RamaY wrote:But RajeshA garu,

Isn't the whole exercise of denouncing Hindu/Hinduism identity is to attract everyone, including Zakir Nayaks?

Or Did I miss the whole discussion?

What is the objective of Harbansji/ShauryaTji's project?
1/ That there are Dharmics all over the world.
2/ Need of the hour is to bring all of them together under an unified command.
3/ Dharmics worldwide are not coming under the Dharmic fold only because today Dharma/Dharmic is tightly intertwined with Hindu/Hinduism identity. {My contention being why would a Dharmic have any problem with Hindu identity, given the fact that these two are so intertwined. The supporting argument being since Hindu identity also includes rituals and non-Hindu dharmics do not want these rituals.}
4/ By separating Dharma from Hinduism we can bring all these Dharmics together
5/ Then what do these Dharmics plan to do? {Are they going to fight Adharma in all its Avatars? Can they count of the Dharmics from Other faiths?}

...
RamaY ji,

I can't really speak for harbans ji or ShauryaT ji. From my impression, I would say

harbans ji is advocating
  1. creating a common platform among the various Dharmic Sampradayas (Sanataniks (SD), Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists)
  2. this platform should be based on some distilled values from all these Sampradayas
  3. These values would then be called Dharmic values.
  4. the values thus distilled should be embedded in the Constitution, and that would give the country better governance, and all, including Muslims and Christians would abide by these values as these values would be considered universal.
  5. He thinks basing Constitution on 'Hindu' or 'Hindutva' as he understands the terms would put off too many of the other Sampradayas, who may then not join in into this common undertaking.
He is however open to other solutions.

ShauryaT ji, as I see it
  1. sees the values espoused in SD as universalist.
  2. believes that if the associated "value labels" are included in the Constitution, it would be positive
  3. considers the term 'Hindu' to be expendable, especially as its use would undermine the cooperation from others
  4. initially made the impression, that he is interested only in what he believes in and don't see any need to rally the whole country behind any agenda.
I think both think that Hinduism = Sanatan Dharma, and hence Hindu = Sanatanik. harbans ji believes that to be the case. ShauryaT ji believes that other Dharmics think that way. They wish Dharmic to be the collective term for Sanatan Dharma (which they think is the same as Hindu), Sikhism, Jainism and Buddhism. They are in favor of using this collective term and leaving Hindu out. For harbans ji that is important so that not just SD people are involved but others to. ShauryaT ji doesn't seem to have the need for the term 'Hindu' as he considers it of foreign origin and he has Sanatan Dharma already as his identity.

Just my reading of it.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

RamaY wrote:* That would convince the citizenry of Bharat to take the Dharmic Quotient of the Constitution to the next level.

* That momentum can be used usher Historical, Cultural, Academic revival of Bharat.

* That revival would make the Hindu majority to get away from their stringent rituals; which are their self-protection mechanisms in view of the Adharmic onslaught.
At least for me, that is not the purpose of the revival. The purpose of the revival should include that more people understand the meanings behind the rituals and that they continue to perform them.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by harbans »

Dharma is universal and eternal. We all try and evolve to it. The markers are there as in traits in our civilization. I understand Ramay Ji's question. There is no such thing as Adharmic Dharma. It is a contradiction. When we call anything sundry 'XYZ Dharma' we all know it is wrong. But some will use it for arguments sake. Yoga is effort to the union self and Supreme. There is no Christian Yoga for instance. The effort and closeness to the Supreme may only be the indicators on the effectiveness of the Yoga is. That effort may be made through a number of Paths. For the civilizational state we seek we need Institutional markers and guidelines to guide the transition/ evolution.

It is said What unites is Dharma, what divides is Adharma. Does that imply we hug killers, rapists? Our and most civilized nations don't do that. That is intrinsic Dharma in any Civilization taking a stance on Adharma and putting such people in the locker. Yet there are people and nations that honor Killers and Rapists. Killers, rapists by outraging values disunite society against the wishes of the majority that don't. At the highest levels of Civilizational Dharma there would be hardly any cause for disunity of purpose.

Same with Truth. Truth is not some Islamic, Christian Truth. Truth can never be 'i say Boolah moolah is my Truth'. Even 50 years ago Westerners used to laugh at the Dharmic concept of Reincarnation. There were basically less than 5% people who believed it may be possible. Today in the US more than a third believe in reincarnation. Why do fasicst ideologies first target the Freedom of the Press? They know how hollow the their ideology is deep inside. That if Truth is expressed their 'Boolah Moolah is Truth' will be shattered. The blasphemy laws arose exactly because of that. Scared to face up. That is why many Islamic countries and groups pressure 'Anti Hate speech' legislations. That is why it is completely stupid of Hindutvaadi groups to come out in the streets to arrest Owaisi on 'Hate speech' grounds. If that much sense has not emerged in Hindutvaadi factions as yet, they do need some serious rethink on their priorites. For all these Adharmic ideologies, Truth has a very dirty habit upsetting the power cart. So it must be suppressed. We need to understand that truth is much more powerful. To keep it floating we need to be awake.
Last edited by harbans on 12 Feb 2013 23:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RamaY »

Thank you RajeshA garu for your reading of Harbansji and ShauryaTji...

I was talking about rituals/structures Hindus currently do that they can shed away in a Dharmic rashtra, if any.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by harbans »

To be fair, I think the current Constitution of India does this ~80-90%. It doesn't overtly support any Adharmic deeds (except things like freedom of religious propagation to Abrahamic faiths). And rashtra power is also attached to it. The problem is that the individuals behind this rashtra power are mainly Macualite Putras to the core.
Ramay Ji, good introspection. I find myself in agreement to almost everything you conclude in that post, except possibly this minor nitpik. And i dealt with this on the India Interests thread. The Constitution has in it's preamble Secular and Socialist. Even freedom of speech is conditional to Law and Order. I.e, what the Governments did in banning Rushdie, Tasleema, Vishwaroopam etc the easy way out saying it might give rise to law and order problems. That means any speech that highlights the truth can be banned if some group feels offended and is ready to take to the streets. Thus Truth becomes subservient to Law and Order. Discussion finished as far as the Constitution goes. That is why i was insisting that Truth be made nodal to the Constitution. And the power of the State is used to fully back Truth to the highest level.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

RamaY wrote:Thank you RajeshA garu for your reading of Harbansji and ShauryaTji...

I was talking about rituals/structures Hindus currently do that they can shed away in a Dharmic rashtra, if any.
No I don't think that anybody is suggesting that, including harbans ji and ShauryaT ji.

It is mostly a little tug-of-war or call it deliberation over what terms to use for a united front against the Islamics and Christianists, so that all Dharmic Sampradayas can feel included, and do not feel excluded due to a narrow term.

They feel Hindu is a narrow term only meant for SD. I feel otherwise.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by harbans »

Why should any Sampradayik ritual be sacrificed in a Dharmic State. The civilizational legacy of this country is so astounding and amazing, i do feel sorry that younger generations are weaning away from appreciating it fully because of political correctness being promoted.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

harbans wrote:Why do fasicst ideologies first target the Freedom of the Press? They know how hollow the their ideology is deep inside. That if Truth is expressed their 'Boolah Moolah is Truth' will be shattered. The blasphemy laws arose exactly because of that. Scared to face up. That is why many Islamic countries and groups pressure 'Anti Hate speech' legislations. That is why it is completely stupid of Hindutvaadi groups to come out in the streets to arrest Owaisi on 'Hate speech' grounds. If that much sense has not emerged in Hindutvaadi factions as yet, they do need some serious rethink on their priorites. For all these Adharmic ideologies, Truth has a very dirty habit upsetting the power cart. So it must be suppressed. We need to understand that truth is much more powerful. To keep it floating we need to be awake.
Freedom of Speech and issues of Blasphemy are indeed important topics of discussion, and need to be discussed here!
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RamaY »

harbans wrote:
To be fair, I think the current Constitution of India does this ~80-90%. It doesn't overtly support any Adharmic deeds (except things like freedom of religious propagation to Abrahamic faiths). And rashtra power is also attached to it. The problem is that the individuals behind this rashtra power are mainly Macualite Putras to the core.
Ramay Ji, good introspection. I find myself in agreement to almost everything you conclude in that post, except possibly this minor nitpik. And i dealt with this on the India Interests thread. The Constitution has in it's preamble Secular and Socialist. Even freedom of speech is conditional to Law and Order. I.e, what the Governments did in banning Rushdie, Tasleema, Vishwaroopam etc the easy way out saying it might give rise to law and order problems. That means any speech that highlights the truth can be banned if some group feels offended and is ready to take to the streets. Thus Truth becomes subservient to Law and Order. Discussion finished as far as the Constitution goes. That is why i was insisting that Truth be made nodal to the Constitution. And the power of the State is used to fully back Truth to the highest level.
Please note the Secular Socialist addition to preamble happened in 1976. This will have to go away. But the problem is since then the "Secular" cool-aid is oversold and to the extent that many Hindus too became addicted to it. Second issue is a constitutional course correct would require 2/3 majority and the only govt that got such a mandate was Rajiv Gandhi govt. He used his 2/3 majority to appease Muslims (Shabano case) instead of bringing back the original spirit of the constitution.

In the current scenario, any nationalistic mandate should be 2/3 majority to get this course correction.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

I have a question for the jirga:

From a Purva Paksha angle what kind of Blasphemy is acceptable by the Dharmics, but not accepted by the Islamics? Where should one draw the line? This line is required for determining the Freedom of Speech allowable in law!
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RamaY »

^ You mean some thing like ...

It is blasphemy for any individual, religion or religious organization, religious or non-religious scripture/text/speech/proposition to say that only their path is true and other paths are invalid and to propose excommunication or death penalty for Individuals who leave one path to another?
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

^ Well that is a popular one! It certainly does differentiate the the Dharmics who prescribe to free access to the Supreme and those religions which claim to be in possession of the only gate which leads to heaven!

Wrote a bit on that here

Differences: Direct Transceivers

I am actually interested in knowing if there is some kind of blasphemy that is not possible in Dharmic traditions but would be considered as such in Abrahamic faiths, as well as blasphemy that is in fact possible in Dharmic traditions and thus should not be allowed.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RamaY »

^ I see what you are saying... got the same thought when i went for a quick walk...
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by member_20317 »

See now this is what I wanted to convey when I wanted to not focus on definition and focus instead on deeds. I will be leaving a lot unsaid but would suggest that you guys do your own understanding of it.

First the background


The sources of Law for India:

1) Primary sources of law:

a) Customs or customary law – based on usage
b) Judicial Precedents – based on doctrine of ‘stare decisis’
c) Statute Law or Legislation – based on the Constitution
d) Personal Law – based on religion

2) Secondary sources of law:
a) Justice, Equity or Good Conscience – to be used only in the absence of the Primary Sources of Law
b) English Law (their composite sources in their order)



Now for the facts.

A gentleman by the name of G. Bühler translated a part from the Manusmriti as follows:
But by Sruti (revelation) is meant the Veda, and by Smriti (tradition) the Institutes of the sacred law: those two must not be called into question in any matter, since from those two the sacred law shone forth.

We know what was 'The Revelation' and any man so long as he is alive can understand how to manipulate them because there is no real order to them nor the overriding concern for the context. The Revelations lead to the Sunnah/Church which was basically the tradition/custom. Now traditions/customs can only be by Usage. Nature of the beast, what can we do. So we have the Law/Sharia from the Tradition/Custom via the half way house of The Constitution. But just like the revelations most times these later works too suffered from two extremes. A general ham handedness of context mashed into a law by a political system that requires only 25% votes to decide for all 100% and a general accumulation of obsolete contexts.


Shruti OTOH are the first ideation of men. Hindus or whatever you choose to call them merely accepted the pre-existing structure. Hindus tried, over long periods, to bring whatever little they understood of it to others around in whatever way they could. Pramanas is what they called it. At what hierarchy they accepted the Pramana was decided inter-se by how they understood the world around them. This process was not at all an altruistic venture. It was entirely based on self-interest. Brahmins would have wanted to teach their kids. Kshtriyas would have wanted to control their flock. Vaishyas would have wanted to understand their risks and rewards. Shudras would have wanted to have their work priced fairly. The darashan of Shruti, was not directly applicable to the temporal world but it bore the weight of the temporal world. To make the darshan serve the people before the point of crisis was hit in interpersonal relations the framework of Smriti and Puranas was drawn up. Smriti, the remembered part of the Shruti was good initial training for the people who were not so deeply interested in Darshan. The deeply learned people drew theories on how to understand Shruti. And the Shruti as we understand it today is supposed to link us to the eternal cosmic order (both observable and beyond). It is also clear and made amply clear by Smrities themselves that if in case of some specific context a contradiction arises then Shruti should be upheld. In other words the purpose/nature/hierarchy of Shruti and Shruti pramaan decides should not be overthrown.

Now you can use your understanding.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by Agnimitra »

RajeshA wrote:I am actually interested in knowing if there is some kind of blasphemy that is not possible in Dharmic traditions but would be considered as such in Abrahamic faiths, as well as blasphemy that is in fact possible in Dharmic traditions and thus should not be allowed.
I don't think assertions of "only Way" are blasphemous in Dharmic traditions, because Dharma itself is universally acknowledged to be sookshma (subtle), and so based on their subtle expressions most Dharmic sects do make that claim. The difference is the way in which their truth-claims are understood, as opposed to the way in which Abrahamics history-centric truth-claims are understood by themselves. Dharmic sects all point to the fact that there is only One Way, and all viewpoints must connect with that Way. But they do acknowledge the multiplicity of viewpoints, while also denouncing certain 'viewpoints' as spurious.

For comparison, here is one such set of 10 blasphemous "offences" that form part of the credo of a couple of Vaishnava sects. They were taken from the Padma and other Puranas. As you can see, the doctrinal aspect is very subtle. And the etiquette and mental attitude is generally at odds with typical practices of Adharmic sects, though at times it is misunderstood in propaganda:

सतां निन्दानाम्नः परमं अपराधं वितनुते
यतः ख्यातिं यातं कथं उ सहते तद्विगर्हाम् |

This relates to etiquette: "The greatest offence is to blaspheme the Good/Truthful Ones who had dedicated their lives to the propagation of the Holy Name. How can one bear to then degrade them?"

शिवस्य श्रीविष्णोर्य इह गुणनामादि सकलं
धिया भिन्नं पश्येत् स खलु हरिनामाहितकरः ||

Now this is about doctrine, and is very subtle! The sentence can mean two opposite things depending on whether nAmAhita is broken up as "nAma + ahita" or "nAma + Ahita": "One whose intellect sees the Attributes and Names of Shiva and Vishnu as separate from one another... he has indeed done a disservice to the Name of Hari -- OR -- ...he has indeed performed/offered the Name of Hari!" :) So here the concept of simultaneous difference and non-difference is alluded to, and the intellect must be refined to see this.

गुरोरवज्ञा श्रुतिशास्त्रनिन्दनं
ततार्थवादो हरिनाम्निकल्पनम् ||

This one is about discipleship and again about mental attitude and doctrinal understanding: "To disobey the orders of the spiritual master. To denigrate the Shruti literature and shastras written in pursuance of the Vedic version. To believe in rationalizations and mental interpretations of the Names/Mantras. To consider the glories of uttering the Name/Mantra to be a product of the faculty of 'imagination'."

नाम्नो बलाद् यस्य हि पापबुद्धिर्
न विद्यते तस्य यमैर्हि शुद्धिहा||

"To commit sinful activities on the strength of chanting the Holy Name of the Lord (e.g., to think it wipes off one's sins, so one can be a little unethical at times). Such a person's intellect is itself sinful. Even Yama cannot purify him!"

धर्मव्रतत्यागहुतादि सर्वशुभक्रियासंयम
अपि प्रमादः |

"To consider chanting of the Names/Mantras as similar to vows, or duties, or ritualistic activities offered for auspicious fruitive purposes (like heaven, or wealth and success, or for one's ancestors, etc.) is an offence. Being inattentive or distracted while chanting is also an offence."

अश्रद्दधाने विमुखे 'पि अशृण्वति
यश्चोपदेशः शिवनामापराधः ||

"To instruct or preach to an unwilling or uninterested or faithless person about the significance of the Holy Name is an offence to the auspicious Name (or Shiva's Name)."

श्रुत्वापि नाममाहात्म्ये यः प्रीतिरहितो 'धमः |
अहं ममादि परमो नाम्नि सो 'प्यपराधकृत् ||

"In spite of having heard/read so much about the significance of the Holy Name if one is still lacking in affection for It, then one is a neophyte. In spite of hearing so much if one is still involved in "I" and "mine" and other material attachments, then one is only committing offences against the Holy Name when one chants."
ShauryaT
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by ShauryaT »

RajeshA wrote: It is mostly a little tug-of-war or call it deliberation over what terms to use for a united front against the Islamics and Christianists, so that all Dharmic Sampradayas can feel included, and do not feel excluded due to a narrow term.

They feel Hindu is a narrow term only meant for SD. I feel otherwise.
RajeshA: A fine summarization of the views. However in the above case, my key point on SD, or derivations of dharma, dharmic etc have less to do with Islamics, Nicene creeds, etc and more to do with accuracy, best representation of a certain system. In fact my target is not these others but my first target is ALL the sampradayas including Nastikas, who intrinsically and ritually follow SD but have lost its ideas and values. I seek to revive those values and ideas. I could care less at this time of what others think or how best to protect against others. My first challenge is internal and it is fundamentally educational and spreading of awareness.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by harbans »

The purpose of subscribing to Dharmic meme, is primarily not a confrontation front to XYZ but an end to itself. The primary motivating influence to Truth or Dharma is evolving context and not a primary reactionary front. As one from ignorance and parochialism peels each layer off, it is revealed in deeper ways. That gives people offtrack the maximum scope to evolve both internally within the Dharmic folds and those whose lives have not been touched by Dharmic living and thought. Needless to say it is not that the Kshatriya arm of Dharma is weak or WKK but the primary motivation to rallying behind Dharma is for it's own sake and not reactionary protection.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RamaY »

ShauryaT wrote: RajeshA: A fine summarization of the views. However in the above case, my key point on SD, or derivations of dharma, dharmic etc have less to do with Islamics, Nicene creeds, etc and more to do with accuracy, best representation of a certain system. In fact my target is not these others but my first target is ALL the sampradayas including Nastikas, who intrinsically and ritually follow SD but have lost its ideas and values. I seek to revive those values and ideas. I could care less at this time of what others think or how best to protect against others. My first challenge is internal and it is fundamentally educational and spreading of awareness.
harbans wrote:The purpose of subscribing to Dharmic meme, is primarily not a confrontation front to XYZ but an end to itself. The primary motivating influence to Truth or Dharma is evolving context and not a primary reactionary front. As one from ignorance and parochialism peels each layer off, it is revealed in deeper ways. That gives people offtrack the maximum scope to evolve both internally within the Dharmic folds and those whose lives have not been touched by Dharmic living and thought. Needless to say it is not that the Kshatriya arm of Dharma is weak or WKK but the primary motivation to rallying behind Dharma is for it's own sake and not reactionary protection.
If the end goal is to guide Bharatiyas to Dharmic life then Hindu or Hinduism identity is not the real problem.

Bharatiyas were under occupation/war-mode for many centuries. They hardly got any independence before independent Indian constitution and rashtra structure are affected by secular cancer.

Then my original understanding was correct. Bharatiyas can be made Dharmic even with their Hindu identity.

Give Bharatiyas sustained economic development, true education and good corruption free governance for 20-30 years and I can guarantee that Bharatiya resurgence can endure another 1000 years of Abrahamic onslaught.
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