Indian Interests

[Sanku]

So what should India have done? Gone to war?

Of course not, in fact what can India do anyway other than shiver in dark corners and go

Gutless sticking to power without any action which will cause any remote disturbance to peaceful enjoyment of privileges and complete abdication of all manners of responsibility lead to such "situations"

Pak erred in choosing Kargil, today they would have everything, and MMS and his chela's would "do you want us to go to war " and send dossiers.

------------------------------

In case its not amply clear

1) Yes going to war is definetly an option on table and should ALWAYS be
2) There are many options between all out war and gutless cringing behavior that MMS routinely displays and wears on his sleeves as a matter of pride.

[shyamd]

Yawn... its been explained a 100 times before as to why we didnt go to war. "Pak today has everything?" - Please explain.

Also, please remove the rhetoric in your comments and focus on the facts - it makes it a bit easier to understand your PoV.

26/11 was a diversionary tactic to basically bail out the US from Afpak as all jihadi's would have head south to face India and TSP would have got a new lease of life. Is J&K safer or unsafe over the last 4 years? Ponder over the whole strategic region and think about the response of India.

Lets take Kargil, what did ABV do? They said ABV was a weak PM for not crossing the LoC - later we know that it was a trap and ABV had the presence of mind not to fall for it - Thankfully !

[Klaus]

^^ Strategic restraint.

By inaction, I did not just imply external theatres. Even if you take the NREGA program, there could have been several improvements and alternatives to it. The NCTC is 2 years late. These are a handful of examples.

Inaction is not the same as restraint. Ascribing strategic motives to it is just not done.

[shyamd]

MMS's economic policy is a joke. I guess bad economics is good politics

We would have been in a lot stronger position economically had NREGA money not been wasted. Growth rates will reduce now.

[Sanku]

Yawn... its been explained a 100 times before as to why we didnt go to war.

A convenient side step to the fact that MMS has done precisely nothing. Forget war.

I said "war should be a option on table" but let alone war there are ZERO options on the table.

Other than open and shameless begging "dont hit us too much, if we lose face politically those nationalists will come to power then what will you do hain" to Pak and its sponsors.

Ack thoo.

[Sanku]

MMS's economic policy is a joke. I guess bad economics is good politics

We would have been in a lot stronger position economically had NREGA money not been wasted. Growth rates will reduce now.

MMS "policy" is a total and complete joke in all respects, period.

Unfortunately the joke is on us; while the ones laughing are him and the powers who play the joke.

[shyamd]

A convenient side step to the fact that MMS has done precisely nothing. Forget war.

I said "war should be a option on table" but let alone war there are ZERO options on the table.

Other than open and shameless begging "dont hit us too much, if we lose face politically those nationalists will come to power then what will you do hain" to Pak and its sponsors.

Ack thoo.

They were looking for war. Can't give them an excuse to start one, why should we save their ass and that of the US?

Read up the definition of strategic restraint and assess whether Pak is in a better position diplomatically and politically, economically today? TSP isn't too far away from collapse from within. Their army is on the verge of mutiny too. The defence minister confirms that TSP can't even last 45 days in a war. THeir Finance minister is on a trip begging for money because they dont have enough to stay alive for more than 90 days.

You want to unite them and give them a lease of life and sacrifice Indian lives in J&K - go to war.

Unfortunately analysts and GoI dont do a good job of explaining decisions very well.

[Sanku]

A convenient side step to the fact that MMS has done precisely nothing. Forget war.

I said "war should be a option on table" but let alone war there are ZERO options on the table.

Other than open and shameless begging "dont hit us too much, if we lose face politically those nationalists will come to power then what will you do hain" to Pak and its sponsors.

Ack thoo.

They were looking for war. Can't give them an excuse to start one, why should we save their ass and that of the US?

As I said the cowards that form the part of UPA and its sympathizers and apologists would have sat back after Kargil with same excuse.

They would not have shot down Altantique.

As we see they have done nothing after each and every incident -- right from hanging Afzal Guru to 26/11 and others and everytime cried wolf of war.

MMS cant even look a Paki PM straight in eye without bending over and doing Kornish to him for the fear that it may be a excuse to start a war.

Ack thoo....

You know who is looking for excuses? Not Pakistan -- they can and will do things without excuses, the only people looking for excuses are the sorry excuse for govt in power in India and their chamchas.

Read up the definition of strategic restraint and assess whether Pak is in a better position diplomatically and politically, economically today?

Read up the definition of "propaganda" and "spinelessness"

TSP isn't too far away from collapse from within. Their army is on the verge of mutiny too. You want to unite them?

More sidestepping, the basic point is, MMS has done zero and Congress mouthpieces have spun rank cowardice as a virtue.

Pakistan is still there, all the criminals are still unpunished and now reduction in the threat of terror is seen.

Yeah Pakistan will collapse from its own contradictions, eventually, and even if it does not, why worry, that gives a lot of time for Congress and its chamcha's to partake of the gravy train.

[shyamd]

As I said the cowards that form the part of UPA and its sympathizers and apologists would have sat back after Kargil with same excuse. They would not have shot down Altantique.

Yawn... More rhetoric. Why did India intervene in SL just a few years ago?

Read up the definition of "propaganda" and "spinelessness"

Haha... I asked you to lay out the options and look at the regional situation at that time. And all you have come out with so far is - "don't take war off the table". Please lay out our options before us keeping in mind strategic goals of India.

More sidestepping, the basic point is, MMS has done zero and Congress mouthpieces have spun rank cowardice as a virtue.

Pakistan is still there, all the criminals are still unpunished and now reduction in the threat of terror is seen.

Yeah Pakistan will collapse from its own contradictions, eventually, and even if it does not, why worry, that gives a lot of time for Congress and its chamcha's to partake of the gravy train.

More rhetoric... Yawn

Your point is basically that the evidence I have listed is just an excuse for inaction. My point is that looking at the strategic situation, we would be in a worse position if we did go to war... I guess we'll agree to disagree.

[Atri]

Lets take Kargil, what did ABV do? They said ABV was a weak PM for not crossing the LoC - later we know that it was a trap and ABV had the presence of mind not to fall for it - Thankfully !

What trap are you referring to, Shyam ji? please elucidate.. I do not know this part of history..

[shyamd]

^^ Saar. Please read the 3 or 4 posts explaining the issue from here - Link

[Sanku]

As I said the cowards that form the part of UPA and its sympathizers and apologists would have sat back after Kargil with same excuse. They would not have shot down Altantique.

Yawn... More rhetoric. Why did India intervene in SL just a few years ago?

India intervened in SL? Oh wow. Lack of action in supporting LTTE is intervention is it and passing some intel.

Great. I love it. Now coming to office every day by MMS would also be considered "action" on Pakistan.

"He came to office, didnt he."

Your point is basically that the evidence I have listed is just an excuse for inaction.

My point is that there is no evidence. This is pretty thin aplogiea.

MMS has done nothing and blamed everybody and everything else.

[Sanku]

Wake me up when Shyamd can find a single action.

Till then he can keep explaining away inaction and deep chankyan moves likes bringing Balochistan in out of thin air to give ammo to Pakis as his virtues.

[Hari Seldon]

Well, sankuji and shyamd saar,

Looks like we have here an argument that neither side can convincingly win. IOW, the typical BRF debate.

Without access to GoI's inside info, we can keep debating what is observed as good, bad or ugly. Unless we have that info too, hard nay impossible to judge what it really is.

[RamaY]

MMS's economic policy is a joke. I guess bad economics is good politics

We would have been in a lot stronger position economically had NREGA money not been wasted. Growth rates will reduce now.

I wish UPA2 shows strategic restraint in internal matters than external affairs.

Sigh- I posted something without calling out the name.

[Sanku]

Well, sankuji and shyamd saar,

Looks like we have here an argument that neither side can convincingly win. IOW, the typical BRF debate.

Without access to GoI's inside info, we can keep debating what is observed as good, bad or ugly. Unless we have that info too, hard nay impossible to judge what it really is.

Seldon Sahib; this debate is won, if I say so myself, quite simply because there is overwhelming data on ground which supports one PoV.

GoI has done nothing, zero, zilch, nada. Pretty much across the board and especially in the space of strategic security -- the proof of the pudding is in eating.

They have come to office, focused on enjoying the perks of office, and coasted on prior institutional strength to not have a total anarchy -- as the past punya is sphionhed off, we see the situation teetering on the edge of precipice.

[shyamd]

India intervened in SL? Oh wow. Lack of action in supporting LTTE is intervention is it and passing some intel.

Yawn... your lack of knowledge is amazing... please read rediff's 3 part report on the subject and also the level of covert support they gave to destroy LTTE completely. It wasn't just "some intel" as you would like to make it out to be.

Are you saying that IN deployments also had no role to play in terms of defeating the Sea Tigers? Are you saying that the ARC/RAWTechint division/Naval Intelligence didn't play a decisive role? Are you saying that IN didn't apprehend LTTE cadres?

[shyamd]

Wake me up when Shyamd can find a single action.

Till then he can keep explaining away inaction and deep chankyan moves likes bringing Balochistan in out of thin air to give ammo to Pakis as his virtues.

Sidestepping the question - you still haven't answered what India should have done post 26/11.

[shyamd]

Seldon Sahib; this debate is won, if I say so myself, quite simply because there is overwhelming data on ground which supports one PoV.

Quite the opposite. Is TSP in a better position today - economically, militarily and diplomatically ? Had we gone to war, would they be in a weaker position?

Please give us some solutions to the problems rather than rhetoric.

[Atri]

^^ Saar. Please read the 3 or 4 posts explaining the issue from here - Link

Thanks for the pointer, Shyam ji.

I wrote something few years ago on one of the previous versions of this very thread.. Quoting the relevant portions. http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 68#p784268

This dynasty will do anything to maintain its interests, which is whole nation. The dynasty won't do anything which will compromise their position of power in independent India. According to Newton's first law of motion, An object continues to be in state of rest or uniform motion unless acted upon by some unbalanced force. Here, the object is India under dynasty. The dynasty will move in the direction of the force which overcomes the equilibrium of competing forces. This applies to internal forces like Hindutva and Naxalism as well as external forces like interests of USA, Russia, China, Evangelical forces and Jihadi Islamism. The dynasty will compromise anything to maintain a strong presence in India's power circle. Dynasty is typically a status-quo loving entity, especially in post Indira Gandhi era. In case when they are in power, they try to consolidate their power without trying to be intrepid and doing things out of the way. They show typical behaviour of North Indian power Satrap described in this article.

PVNR (liberalization-1991) and Vajpayee (nuclear tests-1998) provided the radical internal unbalancing forces which dramatically changed the trajectory of India. Now that the trajectory is fixed, the dynasty, whenever in power, will do anything to ensure that the new trajectory remains unchanged. I am glad that communists never got such a chance to introduce a defining change in trajectory of India.

I understand that the things change in small bouts. Very rarely does something tremendous happen in very short term. I think I also get the point of not attacking PoK during Kargil war as ABV's restraint. But both PVNR and ABV changed the trajectory of India for good.

There are many things that I do not know. But what I do know for sure is that current trajectory of India's flight is the one set by ABV, including the Indo-US nuke deal. Before NREGA and similar BS schemes, MMS was at least maintaining the trajectory. I also understand that NReGA and now this food security bill is not the "upaj" of MMS's "Dimaag".

In no arena, these two successive UPA GOIs have done anything which can be considered as "game-changer" in positive sense. It need not necessarily mean nuking pakis. They do not deserve another extension. But something needs to be done in positive sense either inside or outside India which will bring India at least 1-step closer to her true destiny and position in world. I again understand what everyone seems to be saying that MMS has no actual power and that everything he does comes from 10-Janpath. I do not know any dilli-billis who tell me something which I cannot find on BRF, published books and media. And to an observer like me, this inaction seems unhealthy (from MMS's PoV). Although, it makes perfect sense from dynasty's PoV. But then why make MMS look more chankian than he really is, when this "restraint" is the "upaj" of dynasty's "dimaag"?

Neither internal nor external security apparatus of India looks stronger post 26/11. Nor is the judicial apparatus. Looking at our "Thullas" and "Paandus", I do not think there is any difference in their training, attitude, resources and capability. The western coast smuggling still goes on unabetted. Fixing our western coast can be one of the biggest "game-changer" which any GOI can do without upsetting the global scheme of events. And this should be the first step. The previous GOIs too have the blame of allowing the coast to fall. current GOI with not many prospects of taking any major external decision, should have at least done this.

[Sanku]

India intervened in SL? Oh wow. Lack of action in supporting LTTE is intervention is it and passing some intel.

Yawn... your lack of knowledge is amazing... please read rediff's 3 part report on the subject and also the level of covert support they gave to destroy LTTE completely. It wasn't just "some intel" as you would like to make it out to be.

Wah, chest thumping about knowledge with references to rediff article for gyan. I am impressed, I will now go and cower in dark corners.



Firstly in a discussion about lack of action on Pak you brought in SL which in itself has no bearing.

Secondly, you are making out fairly minimal, low cost support as a big deal. Which it hardly is.

Which is why I said, that next you will count MMS coming to office as action.

Are you saying that IN deployments also had no role to play in terms of defeating the Sea Tigers? Are you saying that the ARC/RAWTechint division/Naval Intelligence didn't play a decisive role? Are you saying that IN didn't apprehend LTTE cadres?

IN/GoI has been doing this as a routine manner for quite a few years now. No point making it out as "action" by MMS.

Just that they did not stop a existing effort.

[Sanku]

Wake me up when Shyamd can find a single action.

Till then he can keep explaining away inaction and deep chankyan moves likes bringing Balochistan in out of thin air to give ammo to Pakis as his virtues.

Sidestepping the question - you still haven't answered what India should have done post 26/11.

Amazing 3 years and you still need to ask that basic question?

Wow.

Well I have said what many times. So have others. Perhaps some one should inform folks that "what could we do only there will be war mommaa......" is not the only approach.

And no I am not side stepping the question, I am clearly saying that if you havent heard the answers shouted out for so long, clearly the problem is in denial and not otherwise, yet another indicator of the same.

[brihaspati]

Strategic restraint: oh how many times have we not been hearing it from congrez spokespersons and defenders of congrez H&D? During partition - the darling leader of congrez urged strategic restraint thunderingly on newspapers which had reported the Muslim atrocities on Hindus in Bengal - he was absolutely flustered that such news were allowed to "trickle" out, "inflaming" reactions in Bihar on "innocent Muslims". So suppression of facts on ground, and pretending and lying to the general public using control over flow of information is a very old game for those who have contolled GOI since independence with the exception of barely 6 years.

This silence, is part of that strategic restraint. The fact of the matter is, it can be a good cover for real strategic intent, as well as a good cover for complete inaction - or worse, trying to preserve parts of the enemy as a hedge to control "friends".

We see a really strange throwing around of wishful thinking basedon tidbits thrown out [either deliberately or out of ego and boasting] by so-called inner circles of the ruling regime - which project internal and long term situation in neighbouring countries based on so-called intel sources/high level droppings. But then these very same intel/high levels never warned us about 26/11. They either apparently waited for US or UK intel to deliver or never had any "actionable" intel (Note again the stress on "actionable").

We have our regime so primed up, with such great handles in Pakiland or BD, but we could not warn about 26/11 or the BDR uprising or August bomb attack on Hasina - but we confidently boast that Pakiland is going down as a politico-military entity, failing oh failing oh failing all the way! We have here people dancing up to the rooftops hooking on to talk of investments and cultural dostigiri and pious or pompous near Lucknawvi adaat-adaab exchanged between Paki pretenders and matching personalities from the Indian side - and claim similarly that things are poised to get well oh wel oh well - if onlee - we do not cause any takleef that destroys the national structure or power basis of our Muslim neighbours.

A complete denial of actual ground conditions within the Islamist power structures, the Islamist networks that span the subcontinent and connects with the ME heartland, the denial of the real power structure and the strength of the mullahcracy as increasingly the cohesive fabric of Paki society that holds it together - all this is to be denied. Pakistan is not going down anywhere - its just continuing the process of its transition from a rather tactical Islamism of the post-Partition generation towards a strategic Islamism of the subsequent generation brainwashed through the mullahcracy. Fears - extremes of personal fears drive such denials.

This is the fear that anything that hurts any Muslim sentiment anywhere on the subcontinent that gets stuck on the ruling regime - will mean disaster internally electorally.

A certain segment of this type of thought needs Pakistan to exist forever, so that Pakistan can be used to keep internal Muslim votes in favour, and divide the non-Muslim vote - while playing the "neutral" oh so secular and unbiased detached arbitrator - to guarantee personal power in a dynastic/individual focus.

I think we should ignore these official or regime sponsored sugar-pills of ideas intended to put Indians to sleep about the real transformations going on in our neighbouring Islamic societies. Power is moving slowly and surely into the hands of the theologians all around in our neighbourhood. Who knows : perhaps they also do so in India in a surreptitious way, so that we don't see analysis of the networks from south to north and east to west influencing local and central politics.

[ramana]

Hindu reports:

1975 Emergency Files missing from PMO

[shyamd]

Firstly in a discussion about lack of action on Pak you brought in SL which in itself has no bearing.

Yes because you are making out the current govt won't do anything - but I am saying that they did step in when they had to.

Secondly, you are making out fairly minimal, low cost support as a big deal. Which it hardly is.

Well, if we didn't, that war would have continued for several years without a winner and LTTE would have stayed pretty much intact. Would you have wanted bloodshed to continue and instability to continue in the south?

IN/GoI has been doing this as a routine manner for quite a few years now. No point making it out as "action" by MMS.

Lol. Wrong. IN/GoI stepped up transfer of equipment, Techint equipment transfers to triangulate LTTE commanders, Offshore vessels, Mi17's. They type of intelligence and equipment helped their military win decisively. Ignorance is bliss as they say.

Just that they did not stop a existing effort.

Of course they have been talking and conducting some joint patrols prior to the eelam war, but these were completely changed during the war.

[shyamd]

Amazing 3 years and you still need to ask that basic question?

Wow.

Well I have said what many times. So have others. Perhaps some one should inform folks that "what could we do only there will be war mommaa......" is not the only approach.

And no I am not side stepping the question, I am clearly saying that if you havent heard the answers shouted out for so long, clearly the problem is in denial and not otherwise, yet another indicator of the same.

Yes you said:

1) Yes going to war is definetly an option on table and should ALWAYS be
2) There are many options between all out war and gutless cringing behavior that MMS routinely displays and wears on his sleeves as a matter of pride.

We have your answer here. And please talk us through the decisions and the effects - get to the point and stop sidestepping.

[nachiket]

A convenient side step to the fact that MMS has done precisely nothing. Forget war.

I said "war should be a option on table" but let alone war there are ZERO options on the table.

Other than open and shameless begging "dont hit us too much, if we lose face politically those nationalists will come to power then what will you do hain" to Pak and its sponsors.

Ack thoo.

They were looking for war. Can't give them an excuse to start one, why should we save their ass and that of the US?

Bullcrap! That is a nice cop out. Pakis weren't looking for war. They were looking to kill as many innocent Indians as possible, cause mayhem in a major Indian city, hurt the economy,etc. (like they always do) without facing any consequences. And they did that successfully.

[nachiket]

^^ Saar. Please read the 3 or 4 posts explaining the issue from here - Link

Wow, I missed this gem:

Was ABV's decision not to cross LoCs an act of weakness? Or did he see through the plan that the west and PRC to teach India a "historic lesson" by nuking us if nuke war started thereby saving many million lives and the future growth of our economy and allowing us to progress.

This is your theory? That the US and PRC were conspiring to nuke us? Pray tell us where you came to know of this "plan"?

ABV decided not to cross the LOC in order to win over international opinion in India's favor. At the time the pukis were still maintaining that it was "mujahideen" fighting in Kargil and that they had no part in it. Whether it was a prudent decision or not depends on whether our Armed forces were actually ready for an all out war on multiple fronts. The lack of essential equipment like BPJs and night vision devices, lack of PGMs with the airforce and lack of aircraft capable of delivering them was woefully evident during the conflict. Multiple fronts would have exposed the artillery shortfall as well.

[Sanku]

Firstly in a discussion about lack of action on Pak you brought in SL which in itself has no bearing.

Yes because you are making out the current govt won't do anything - but I am saying that they did step in when they had to.

Secondly, you are making out fairly minimal, low cost support as a big deal. Which it hardly is.

Well, if we didn't, that war would have continued for several years without a winner and LTTE would have stayed pretty much intact. Would you have wanted bloodshed to continue and instability to continue in the south?

No I am saying that the current Govt HAS DONE NOTHING.

At the very best it provided some lukewarm support to pre-existing efforts, and that too the most minimal low cost one.

You are making "MMS came daily to office" sound like a virtue. Yes he did come daily to office and did mostly nothing apart from enabling his party to make merry in India.

IN/GoI has been doing this as a routine manner for quite a few years now. No point making it out as "action" by MMS.

Lol. Wrong. IN/GoI stepped up transfer of equipment, Techint equipment transfers to triangulate LTTE commanders, Offshore vessels, Mi17's. They type of intelligence and equipment helped their military win decisively. Ignorance is bliss as they say.

Dear boy, I know you are going all out to support the indefensible, but hey, you know, there is no "step up", India had always been supporting SL Govt for the longest time with all manners of equipment, this was not new.

Ignorance is bliss indeed, and it shows in your comments that you some how think (and I am being charitable) that Indian support to SL was some big new thing that happened.

In any case SL has nothing to do with Pakistan. Even the comparison is so ridiculous that one doesnt know where to begin. Did India and SL fight three+ wars? Is there a anti-India sentiment based on religious prinicinples? Is SL working now as US cats paw (dont go back to Bandarnaike) -- please lets not be funny here.

Just that they did not stop a existing effort.

Of course they have been talking and conducting some joint patrols prior to the eelam war, but these were completely changed during the war.

So you accept that there was continuing support, which you however want to hype up now. Sad.

Accept it buddy, MMS is destroying the countries interests, by sheer inaction and mal-performance on multiple fronts especially strategic -- with him and his part at helm, India will get nowhere but down.

Time you faced the basic facts.

[Sanku]

We have your answer here. And please talk us through the decisions and the effects - get to the point and stop sidestepping.

Ok since you are in "I am majorly clueless and need to have daliya spoonfed to me" mode:

Possible actions

1) Continuing artillery barrage.
2) Economic sanctions
3) Raising the issues of war crimes at World Courts (for show of course, the world courts are useless)
4) Shooting down a few more Atlantiques or other such planes which happen to stray over the border.
5) Total denial of Visa.
6) Denial of cross border flights -- all Indian flights over Pak Air space to continue forcefully with escort.
7) Partial IA mobilization, move to hit targets inside Pakistan with air/missile ops.
Overt troop presence in Afg, arming of Anti-taliban factions with as much that we can get.

The list goes on and on and on.

But continue living in utter and complete denial old chap.

[Prem]

Cisco Uses India To Impress Street
China ko Compete karne ko Bhayya, abb Cisco ayyo re. BLR me Derra layyo re

lot of tub-thumping in 2009 brought it to a high of nearly $27 in April 2010, but you could get it for a little over $15 last summer.Investors, in other words, have seen previous false dawns with the networking company. What makes this different?India. After years watching Chinese rival Huawei power ahead thanks to low-cost Chinese engineering help, Cisco is now playing the same game, only in India.The company now has three development centers in India, and is building a fourth, which will employ 6,000 people. Most of its Indian research is done in Bangalore. Cassandra Mooshian, analyst at Technology Business Research (TBR), told ZDNet Asia "is looking to utilize low-cost resources to continue the development of solutions, as over 396 patents have been rewarded in India since 1998."So rather than look to Silicon Valley for an heir to aging CEO John Chambers, it might make more sense to look toward someone like Naresh B. Wadhwa (above, right), the company's India country manager. Wadhwa is going to be more important to profits than Chambers going forward in any case.In his own remarks on recent results Chambers is emphasizing cost-cutting, the elimination of products, price-cutting on popular products, and service provider customers.That's a very short-term way of looking at the company. The real news here, I believe, is Bangalore. If Cisco can drive innovation and the stock price, it will do so at the expense of becoming an Indian company. If it can't, it may be no company worth investing in at all.

[negi]

US and PRC were to nuke us if ABV would have crossed LOC during Kargil ? Came across this chankian piece of $hit after a long long time.

[nachiket]

Inaction on several fronts should not be covered up as being "untouched" or detached. It is hardly the sign of being spiritualist.

^^ Strategic restraint.

That would be mistaking lethargy for strategy. (© Sir Humphrey Appleby)

[shyamd]

Nachiket, I guess arun_s , satya and other senior posters are lying about the trap that the US laid for us. Did you read the link that I posted for Atri

[nachiket]

Nachiket, I guess arun_s , satya and other senior posters are lying about the trap that the US laid for us. Did you read the link that I posted for Atri

Of course I read the link. That's how I came across the brilliant theory in the first place. Here's what you say a few posts after that:

Deveshji, the evidence of washington and dragon's involvement is best left unsaid.

Which basically means that you have no actual evidence (or even rumour) of any trap and someone pulled the "trap" theory out of their musharraf.

Now read this post by rohitvats in the same thread: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1160455

A far more logical and realistic explanation of the situation at the time.

[shyamd]

The idea was that if we crossed the LoC to cut them off, they would nuke us. IA asked ABV to approve operations across LoC, ABV said no. Washington had given the all clear to mate weapon. It wasn't to take POK. For example IAF was denied the ability to cross LoC to turn back after bombing. They were that careful.

[Sanku]

shyamd, dont quote others on the forum who are not here to say there piece.

Kindly desist, this is bad form. For the record, I will state that you are misrepresenting their position.

[shyamd]

No I am saying that the current Govt HAS DONE NOTHING.

At the very best it provided some lukewarm support to pre-existing efforts, and that too the most minimal low cost one.

Has it done nothing? Has it not expanded efforts completely with the ANA in afghanistan? There were plans to place troops in Afghanistan, but our partners didn't agree and we can't just go and walk in without the backing of nations like Iran and Russia - if we had a direct border with it, we could. So instead we are expanding our efforts by training ANA.

Now you describe lukewarm at best - you do realise that this was 4th Eelam war and in the late 90's and early 2000 India didn't do much.

Again - yes they were cooperating but the scale of cooperation during 4th Eeelam war was unprecedented - you miss the point completely.

Dear boy, I know you are going all out to support the indefensible, but hey, you know, there is no "step up", India had always been supporting SL Govt for the longest time with all manners of equipment, this was not new.

Ignorance is bliss indeed, and it shows in your comments that you some how think (and I am being charitable) that Indian support to SL was some big new thing that happened.

In any case SL has nothing to do with Pakistan. Even the comparison is so ridiculous that one doesnt know where to begin. Did India and SL fight three+ wars? Is there a anti-India sentiment based on religious prinicinples? Is SL working now as US cats paw (dont go back to Bandarnaike) -- please lets not be funny here.

Yes they were supporting, but it was not on the scale that was seen. Even when LTTE conducted offensives and defeated the SLA in 2002 India was still playing neutral and suggested that SL open up relations with Israel for equipment. Not sure if this is true but was it not George Fernandes who asked the IN to stop patrolling that coast and even allowed the LTTE supply/smuggling to continue? Correct me if I am wrong, but didnt they let a few LTTE supply ships with cadres go?

So you accept that there was continuing support, which you however want to hype up now. Sad.

Accept it buddy, MMS is destroying the countries interests, by sheer inaction and mal-performance on multiple fronts especially strategic -- with him and his part at helm, India will get nowhere but down.

Time you faced the basic facts.

Umm.... disagree on the external front, agree on what they are doing domestically.

[shyamd]

Ok since you are in "I am majorly clueless and need to have daliya spoonfed to me" mode:

Possible actions

1) Continuing artillery barrage.
2) Economic sanctions
3) Raising the issues of war crimes at World Courts (for show of course, the world courts are useless)
4) Shooting down a few more Atlantiques or other such planes which happen to stray over the border.
5) Total denial of Visa.
6) Denial of cross border flights -- all Indian flights over Pak Air space to continue forcefully with escort.
7) Partial IA mobilization, move to hit targets inside Pakistan with air/missile ops.
Overt troop presence in Afg, arming of Anti-taliban factions with as much that we can get.

The list goes on and on and on.

But continue living in utter and complete denial old chap.

Brilliant... Now lets see

Regarding IA mobilisation/War plans - TSP would have achieved what they want - bail out from friends, made it easier for ISAF to withdraw, usually they leave behind some weapons, especially when ally is fighting a war. J&K situation would be worse today, more IA troop deaths/civilians killed as jihadi's would all head south.

Overt troop presence - India tried that and Rus said no because we were doing things without their permission in their region. What do you think Farkhor activation Mig29 plus commando's based there were going to do. IA was going to move into northern region - US wanted us to take orders from NATO command - we dont want to be seen as being with them.
Should we have worked under their command? Dont know you decide. But the plans gave Kayani sleepless nights.

We continue to support ANA in a big way so I guess point 8 is done.

Economic sanctions/flights/visas - Ask yourself why TSPA is saying a big no to these while we are pushing them? Ponder over it. They are scared of India gaining a big influence in their country. Think long term.

[shyamd]

shyamd, dont quote others on the forum who are not here to say there piece.

Kindly desist, this is bad form. For the record, I will state that you are misrepresenting their position.

Haha... Well look at the link - where does any senior poster apart from Rohitvats ji disagree with what I said. And FYI, please feel free to search for what other senior posters have said on the subject.

Another desperate attempt.... yawn.