shiv wrote:Rajesh AIT can be quashed without bringing in Buddha, or even using AIT dates for Buddha.
True. There is a need to understand history in correct perspective devoid of the biased european constructs like AIT. In this endeavor, the role of Buddhism needs to be re-evaluated. The impact and imprint of Buddhism is not limited to India...
dharmaraj wrote: How human language could have evolved from birdsong
http://web.mit.edu/press/2013/how-human ... dsong.html
Linguistics and biology researchers propose a new theory on the deep roots of human speech.
CAMBRIDGE, Mass. — “The sounds uttered by birds offer in several respects the nearest analogy to language,” Charles Darwin wrote in “The Descent of Man” (1871), while contemplating how humans learned to speak. Language, he speculated, might have had its origins in singing, which “might have given rise to words expressive of various complex emotions.”
Now researchers from MIT, along with a scholar from the University of Tokyo, say that Darwin was on the right path. The balance of evidence, they believe, suggests that human language is a grafting of two communication forms found elsewhere in the animal kingdom: first, the elaborate songs of birds, and second, the more utilitarian, information-bearing types of expression seen in a diversity of other animals.
“It’s this adventitious combination that triggered human language,” says Shigeru Miyagawa, a professor of linguistics in MIT’s Department of Linguistics and Philosophy, and co-author of a new paper published in the journal Frontiers in Psychology.
The idea builds upon Miyagawa’s conclusion, detailed in his previous work, that there are two “layers” in all human languages: an “expression” layer, which involves the changeable organization of sentences, and a “lexical” layer, which relates to the core content of a sentence. His conclusion is based on earlier work by linguists including Noam Chomsky, Kenneth Hale and Samuel Jay Keyser.
Based on an analysis of animal communication, and using Miyagawa’s framework, the authors say that birdsong closely resembles the expression layer of human sentences — whereas the communicative waggles of bees, or the short, audible messages of primates, are more like the lexical layer. At some point, between 50,000 and 80,000 years ago, humans may have merged these two types of expression into a uniquely sophisticated form of language.
“There were these two pre-existing systems,” Miyagawa says, “like apples and oranges that just happened to be put together.”
These kinds of adaptations of existing structures are common in natural history, notes Robert Berwick, a co-author of the paper, who is a professor of computational linguistics in MIT's Laboratory for Information and Decision Systems, in the Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science.
“When something new evolves, it is often built out of old parts,” Berwick says. “We see this over and over again in evolution. Old structures can change just a little bit, and acquire radically new functions.”
A new chapter in the songbook
The new paper, “The Emergence of Hierarchical Structure in Human Language,” was co-written by Miyagawa, Berwick and Kazuo Okanoya, a biopsychologist at the University of Tokyo who is an expert on animal communication.
To consider the difference between the expression layer and the lexical layer, take a simple sentence: “Todd saw a condor.” We can easily create variations of this, such as, “When did Todd see a condor?” This rearranging of elements takes place in the expression layer and allows us to add complexity and ask questions. But the lexical layer remains the same, since it involves the same core elements: the subject, “Todd,” the verb, “to see,” and the object, “condor.”
Birdsong lacks a lexical structure. Instead, birds sing learned melodies with what Berwick calls a “holistic” structure; the entire song has one meaning, whether about mating, territory or other things. The Bengalese finch, as the authors note, can loop back to parts of previous melodies, allowing for greater variation and communication of more things; a nightingale may be able to recite from 100 to 200 different melodies.
By contrast, other types of animals have bare-bones modes of expression without the same melodic capacity. Bees communicate visually, using precise waggles to indicate sources of foods to their peers; other primates can make a range of sounds, comprising warnings about predators and other messages.
Humans, according to Miyagawa, Berwick and Okanoya, fruitfully combined these systems. We can communicate essential information, like bees or primates — but like birds, we also have a melodic capacity and an ability to recombine parts of our uttered language. For this reason, our finite vocabularies can generate a seemingly infinite string of words. Indeed, the researchers suggest that humans first had the ability to sing, as Darwin conjectured, and then managed to integrate specific lexical elements into those songs.
“It’s not a very long step to say that what got joined together was the ability to construct these complex patterns, like a song, but with words,” Berwick says.
As they note in the paper, some of the “striking parallels” between language acquisition in birds and humans include the phase of life when each is best at picking up languages, and the part of the brain used for language. Another similarity, Berwick notes, relates to an insight of celebrated MIT professor emeritus of linguistics Morris Halle, who, as Berwick puts it, observed that “all human languages have a finite number of stress patterns, a certain number of beat patterns. Well, in birdsong, there is also this limited number of beat patterns.”
Birds and bees
The researchers acknowledge that further empirical studies on the subject would be desirable.
“It’s just a hypothesis,” Berwick says. “But it’s a way to make explicit what Darwin was talking about very vaguely, because we know more about language now.”
Miyagawa, for his part, asserts it is a viable idea in part because it could be subject to more scrutiny, as the communication patterns of other species are examined in further detail. “If this is right, then human language has a precursor in nature, in evolution, that we can actually test today,” he says, adding that bees, birds and other primates could all be sources of further research insight.
MIT-based research in linguistics has largely been characterized by the search for universal aspects of all human languages. With this paper, Miyagawa, Berwick and Okanoya hope to spur others to think of the universality of language in evolutionary terms. It is not just a random cultural construct, they say, but based in part on capacities humans share with other species. At the same time, Miyagawa notes, human language is unique, in that two independent systems in nature merged, in our species, to allow us to generate unbounded linguistic possibilities, albeit within a constrained system.
“Human language is not just freeform, but it is rule-based,” Miyagawa says. “If we are right, human language has a very heavy constraint on what it can and cannot do, based on its antecedents in nature.”
Written by: Peter Dizikes, MIT News Office
weren't we discussing about some part of samveda being similar to birdsongs?
Taittriya samhita(including Taittriya Upanishad) of Krishna Yajur Veda?
According to tradition, Yājñavalkya was the son of Devarāta and was the pupil of sage Vaisampayana . Once, Vaisampayana got angry with Yājñavalkya as the latter argued too much to separate some latter additions to Yajurveda in being abler than other students. The angry teacher asked his pupil Yājñavalkya to give back all the knowledge of Yajurveda that he had taught him.
As per the demands of his Guru, Yājñavalkya vomited all the knowledge that he acquired from his teacher in form of digested food. Other disciples of Vaisampayana took the form of partridge birds and consumed the digested knowledge (a metaphor for knowledge in its simplified form without the complexities of the whole but the simplicity of parts) because it was knowledge and they were very eager to receive the same.
The Saṃskṛt name for partridge is "Tittiri". As the Tittiri (partridge) birds ate this Veda, it is thenceforth called the Taittirīya Yajurveda. It is also known as Kṛṣṇa Yajurveda or Black-Yajurveda on account of it being a vomited substance. The Taittirīya Saṃhitā thus belongs to this Yajurveda.
Then Yājñavalkya determined not to have any human guru thereafter. Thus he began to propitiate the Sun God, Surya. Yājñavalkya worshipped and extolled the Sun, the master of the Vedas, for the purpose of acquiring the fresh Vedic portions not known to his preceptor, Vaiśampāyana.
The Sun God, pleased with Yājñavalkya penance, assumed the form of a horse and graced the sage with such fresh portions of the Yajurveda as were not known to any other. This portion of the Yajurveda goes by the name of Śukla Yajurveda or White-Yajurveda on account of it being revealed by Sun. It is also known as Vajasaneya Yajurveda, because it was evolved in great rapidity by Sun who was in the form of a horse through his manes.The rhythm of recital of these vedas is therefore to the rhythm of the horse canter and distinguishes itself from the other forms of veda recitals. In Sanskrit, term "Vaji" means horse. Yājñavalkya divided this Vajasaneya Yajurveda again into fifteen branches, each branch comprising hundreds of Yajus Mantras. Sages like Kanva, Madhyandina and others learnt those and Śukla Yajurveda branched into popular recensions named after them.
Yājñavalkya married two wives. One was Maitreyi and the other Katyaayanee. Of the two, Maitreyi was a Brahmavadini (one who is interested in the knowledge of Brahman).The descendant sects of Brahmans are the progeny of the first wife Katyaayanee. When Yājñavalkya wished to divide his property between the two wives, Maitreyi asked whether she could become immortal through wealth. Yājñavalkya replied that there was no hope of immortality through wealth and that she would only become one among the many who were well-to-do on. When she heard this, Maitreyi asked Yājñavalkya to teach her what he considered as the best. Then Yājñavalkya described to her the greatness of the Absolute Self, the nature of its existence, the way of attaining infinite knowledge and immortality, etc. This immortal conversation between Yājñavalkya and Maitreyi is recorded in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.
Wisdom of Yājñavalkya is shown in Brhadaranyaka Upanishad where he gives his teachings to his wife Maitreyi and King Janaka. He also participates in a competition arranged by King Janaka about the selecting great Brhama Jnani (knower of Brahman). His intellectual dialogues with Gargi (a learned scholar of the times) form a beautiful chapter filled with lot of philosophical and mystical question-answers in Brhadaranyaka Upanishad. In the end, Yājñavalkya took Vidvat Sanyasa (renunciation after the attainment of the knowledge of Brahman) and retired to the fores
There seems to be another instance connected to birds-Vedas:
The old Markandeya Purana is an Indian book that is written as a dialogue between the sage Markandeya and a disciple of Vyasa, called Jaimini. The text begins with telling that Jaimini asked four questions of the sage.
Markandeya replied, "Birds know, and these wise birds stay in the caves among the Vindhya Hills."
A surprised Jaimini asked again, 'It is surprising that birds have Veda knowledge
, which is even rare to find among humans."
Markandeya told him the birds had been elves earlier, but then they had tried to seduce a sage, and were to be reborn as birds for it. Then, after some time a sage found four eggs and took care of them until they hatched. He fostered the chicks in his hermitage. As they got feathers and started to flow about, they also listened in to discourses on the Vedas and other texts that the sage gave to gathered disciples.
One day the birds told the sage, "Tell us what we should do, please."
He advised them to go to the Vindhya Hills, and so they did. While they stayed there, they studied the Vedas and advised seekers at times too.When Jaimini came to them, he said, "Learned birds! Kindly listen. Sage Markandeya told me to come here and see you."
They replied, "God has many forms. And here is a story: Once a Brahmin instructed his son to study Vedas. The son laughingly said, "I know everything already."
His father got pleased and asked him many questions about life and death. The son answered, "I was blessed with an extraordinary memory in my previous birth. That is why I remember the knowledge and virtues of previous lives.
Those who lack solid virtues suffer great pain at the time of death, and some have to undergo scores of tortures in hell. Sinners pass through different hells and may not enjoy their imperfect future lives much - but as their actions improve, they may eventually attain a god's position."
Jaimini asked further questions, and the four wise, talking birds answered to their ability; repeating teachings of Markandeya. [Some abstract of their lessons]
The Ibis among ancient Egyptians
Toth of ancient Egyptians depicted with an Ibis head.
The deity Thoth of ancient Egyptians, was often depicted as a man with the head of an ibis. This bird was sacred to him, and the baboon too. According to Theodor Hopfner, Thoth's Egyptian name, which runs something like Djehuty (Tehuti), denotes that he possessed the attributes of the ibis. His name means "He who is like the ibis".
Thoth has been depicted in many ways. Usually, he is depicted in his human form with the head of an ibis. In this form, he can be represented as the reckoner of times and seasons. Sometimes he was depicted wearing the Atef crown or the United Crowns of Upper and Lower Egypt. When not depicted in this common form, he sometimes takes the form of the ibis directly. He also appears as a dog faced baboon or a man with the head of a baboon when he is A'an, the god of equilibrium. In the form of A'ah-Djehuty he took a more human-looking form. These forms are symbolic and metaphoric. The Egyptians did not believe gods actually looked like humans with animal heads.
Thoth (also Thot) is a Greek version from the letters dhwty. Hellenic Greeks interpreted him to be their god Hermes because of similar attributes and functions. In Egyptian mythology, he played many vital and prominent roles in maintaining the universe. He was often considered as the heart, that is, the seat of intelligence or the mind. He was also thought of as the tongue of the sun god Ra. Thoth also became associated with the arts of magic, writing, science, and more. He came to be seen as god of wisdom, magic, measurement, regulation, of events, of time.
His roles in Egyptian mythology were many, and he had many shrines in his honour. The ancient Egyptians regarded Thoth as One, self-begotten, and self-produced. He was the master of both physical and moral law. His is feminine counterpart, Ma'at was the force which maintained the Universe. Without his words, the Egyptians believed, the gods would not exist. The Egyptians credited him as the author of all works of science, religion, philosophy, and magic. He was also credited with creating the 365 day calendar. Thoth could also heal and resurrect.
In one ancient myth an egg was laid upon the Milky Way by a cosmic goose, a celestial bird. The egg contained Ra, the sun god. After the rise of the cult of Thoth, the egg was said to have been a gift from Thoth, and laid by an ibis, the bird with which he was associated. [More]
Among ancient Egyptians, Thoth was also known by specific sides to himself, such as "god father". One of Thoth's titles, "Three times great, great" was translated to the Greek Trismegistos, making Hermes Trismegistus. The Greeks also declared him the inventor of such as geometry, botany, and oratory. He was related to the Logos of Plato and the mind of God.
There is also a story of Jajali-Tuladhara in MB where birds(Chataka birds) play a key role. In Nala-Damayanti story, Hamsa bird becomes the messenger. In Uttara Ramayana, there is an instance of two birds complaining to Sri Rama about a 'property dispute'.
In Shankara Vijayam, Sri Adi Shankara is searching for the address of Mandana Mishra. Adi Shankara asks some people for the address of Mandana Mishra. They tell Him that the place, where even the birds recite Vedas, is the location of Mandana Mishra's house.
About bees: In Srisailam, the Goddess is called Bramaramba. 'Bramara' means bee. It is said that the temple in Srisailam is such that, at a certain place it resonates like the sound made by a bee(bramara).
X-posting from Archeo-astronomy and dating of texts:
I am deliberatly putting this in Astro thread. No comment."Bolunga to Bolega ki Bolta hai"
+108 to the person who has discovered this gem of encoded in Hanuman Chalisa. And thanks Sushupti saar for posting this didn't know it. Could you give the link to this info? I mean the link to source of this pic...
RamaY wrote:^ Could someone pls translate it into our National Language Telugu?
'our National Language' is ENGLISH, so I'll translate it into that:
(Hanuman Chalisa verse 20)
Juug Sahastra Jojan Par Bhaanu,
Leelyo Taahi Madhur Phal Jaanu .
In your childhood, you gulped the Sun which is at a distance of thousands of miles considering it to be a sweet fruit.
Juug == Yug (Yugas),
Sahasra == Thousand,
Jojan == Yojan,
Bhaanu == Sun,
Leelyo == gulped
Madhur == Sweet
Phal == Fruit
Jaanu == thinking/knowing.
Here, Yuga means the combination of all the 4 Yugas i.e. Krita(Satya) + Treta + Dwapara + Kali.
Before we proceed, there is one thing that must be understood.
1 divine(divya) day(for Gods in heaven/swarga) == 360 solar days(i.e. 1 solar year).
1 divine(divya) year(for Gods in heaven/swarga) == 360 solar years.
1 Krita Yuga = 17,28,000 solar years or 4800 divine years.
1 Treta Yuga = 12,96,000 solar years or 3600 divine years.
1 Dwapara Yuga = 8,64,000 solar years or 2400 divine years.
1 Kali Yuga = 4,32,000 solar years or 1200 divine years.
1 Mahayuga = 1 Krita(17,28,000) + 1 Treta(12,96,000) + 1 Dwapara(8,64,000) + 1 Kali(4,32,000) = 43,20,000 years.
1 Mahayuga = 1 Krita(4800) + 1 Treta(3600) + 1 Dwapara(2400) + 1 Kali(1200) = 12000 years.
Dwapara = 2*Kali; Treta = 3*Kali; Krita = 4*Kali;
1 Mahayuga = 1 Krita + 1 Treta + 1 Dwapara + 1 Kali;
=> 1 Mahayuga = 4*Kali + 3*Kali + 2*Kali + 1*Kali;
=> 1 Mahayuga = 10*Kali;
=> 1 Mahayuga = 10 * (4,32,000) = 43,20,000 solar yrs;
or 1 Mahayuga = 10 * (1200) = 12000 divine years.
Here, when Tulsidas ji uses the word 'Jug'(or Yug) he means Mahayuga or Chaturyuga(i.e. a single cycle of all the 4 Yugas). So, Yuga == 43,20,000 solar years or 12000 divine years.
Sahasra means thousand.
Jojana(or Yojana) is an Indian unit of distance. When it is converted to Miles, 1 Yojana is about 8-9 Miles. I think the exact conversion would be in decimals, so it is approximated to either 8 or 9. There seems to be some disagreement on when it should be approximated to 8 or 9 miles. Here, it has been taken to mean 8 miles.
So, Tulsidas ji says,"
Juug Sahastra Jojan Par Bhaanu,
Leelyo Taahi Madhur Phal Jaanu ."
In your childhood, you(Hanuman) gulped(leelyo) the Sun(Bhaanu) which is at a distance(par) of Jug(12000) Sahasra(1000) Jojan(8 miles) miles considering(jaanu) it to be a sweet(madhur) fruit(phal).
So, the distance of Sun from earth is: Jug(12000) * sahasra(1000) * jojan(8 miles) = 9,60,00,000 miles.
1 miles = 1.6 KM.
So, the distance of sun from earth is:
9,60,00,000 miles = 15,36,00,000 KM.
According to modern science the distance between sun and earth is:
Basically, Tulsidas ji has mentioned the approx. distance of Sun from earth in simple words in Hanuman Chalisa. Tulsidas ji lived in 16th century(1497-1623 CE). This was the time when the Alauddin Khilji and Malik Kafur were plundering the entire India, looting the temples and destroying the grand temples(which were the centres of learning as much as they were religious centres) and forcibly converting the people. This was the time when Mongols, under Babur, finally succeeded in establishing their rule in India by defeating the Dilli sultanate(Lodhi was defeated in Panipat in 1526). Till then, Mongols were launching their raids on India. The frequency and the brazenness of the raids was steadily increasing. Timur(great grand-father of Babur) had sacked Dilli in 1398(during the rule of Tughlaq's father).
In that picture, the author says that the modern day Indians are unable to recognize that all this scientific knowledge was already known to Indians. The author says that the modern day Indians, trained in convent schools, will only accept(and admire) the words of westerners like Newton. The author thinks that the westerners like Newton had formulated their theories after stealing the ancient Indian knowledge.
RajeshA wrote:Sushupti ji,
isn't the length of a Yojana somewhat unclear?
Rajesh Ji, Prof. Subhash Kak did a much better job in his article
"The Speed of Light and Puranic Cosmology" http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/9804020
My point about "Hanumaan chalissa" thing was why degrade it by using it for such cheap intellectual stunt?.
Speed of Light discovered by Vedic scholar Sayana - Professor Subhash Kak
14/02/2013 15:01:15 Courtesy: S C Sharma
Professor Subhash Kak of Louisiana State University recently discovered a statement by Sayana, a 14th century Indian scholar. In his commentary on a hymn in the Rig Veda, Sayana says: "With deep respect, I bow to the sun, who travels 2,202 yojanas in half a nimesha."
A yojana is approximately 9 miles; a nimesha is 16/75 of a second. Therefore: 2,202 yojanas x 9 miles x 75/8 nimeshas = 185,794 miles per second
How could a Vedic scholar who died in 1387 A.D. have known the correct figure for the speed of light?
The yogic tradition is full of such coincidences. Take for instance the mala of traditional beads. Students often ask why they have 108 beads instead of 100. The reason is that the mala represent the ecliptic, the path of the sun and moon across the sky. Yogis divide the ecliptic into 27 equal sections called nakshatras, and each of these into four equal sectors called padas, or "steps," marking the 108 steps that the sun and moon take through heaven.
Professor Kak points out that the distance between the earth and the sun is approximately 108 times the sun's diameter. The diameter of the sun is about 108 times the earth's diameter. And the distance between the earth and the moon is 108 times the moon's diameter.
Could this be the reason the ancients considered 108 to be a sacred number? If the microcosm (us) mirrors the macrocosm (the solar system), maybe you could say there are 108 steps between our human awareness and the divine light. Each time we chant another mantra as our mala beads slip through our fingers, we are taking another step toward our own inner sun.
The Surya Siddhanta is the oldest surviving astronomical text in the Indian tradition, dating to the 6th A.D. or earlier It states that the earth is shaped like a ball, and that at the very opposite side of the planet from India is a great city where the sun is rising at the same time it sets in India. In this city, the Surya Siddhanta claims, lives a race of siddhas, or advanced spiritual adepts. Is it possible that the ancient Indians were aware of the Mayans and Incas?
While European traditions claimed that the universe was created approximately 6,000 years ago, Indian sages have always maintained that our cosmos is billions of years old, and that it's just one of many such universes which have arisen and dissolved in the vastness of eternity.
In fact the Puranas describe the birth of our solar system out of a "milk ocean" ~ the Milky Way? Through the will of the Creator, they tell us, a vortex shaped like a lotus arose from the navel of eternity. It gradually coalesced into our world, but will perish some day billions of years hence when the sun expands to many times it present size, swallowing all life on earth.
In the end, the Puranas say, the ashes of the earth will be blown into space by the cosmic wind. Today we known this is a scientifically accurate, if poetic, description of the fate of our planet.
Buddhists copied the 108 from Hindus. So, the Buddhist rosary also has 108 beads, just like Hindus.
And Christianity(distorted crypto-Buddhism) also has 108 beads. It is justified in the following manner. Ten decades(10 * 10 ==100) for Ave Maria, and eight units for Pater Noster. But, the reality is that it is based on Buddhist rosary, which in turn, is based on Hindu rosary.
Even the word 'rosary' is based on the sanskrit word: 'Japa'. In sanskrit 'Japa' means 'chanting'. So, 'Japa maala' means a 'chanting garland'. But, in sanskrit, 'Japaa' means a red flower(like a rose). So, instead of called it 'Japa maala', it has been translated as 'Japaa maala' i.e. 'rose garland' or rosary(or rosarium).
This is not a misunderstanding, but a deliberate intentional pun on the sanskrit original.
Bhaskaracharya's Law of Gravity
Did you know that the famous Hindu astronomer, Bhaskaracharya in his Surya Siddhanta wrote:
"Objects fall on the earth due to a force of attraction by the earth. Therefore, the earth, planets, constellations, moon and sun are held in orbit due to this attraction."
It was not until 1687, 1200 years later did Issac Newton "rediscover" the Law of Gravity.
In Surya Siddhanta, dated 400-500 AD, the ancient Hindu astronomer Bhaskaracharya states,
"Objects fall on the earth due to a force of attraction by the earth. Therefore, the earth, planets, constellations, moon, and sun are held in orbit due to this force."
Approximately 1200 years later (1687 AD), Sir Isaac Newton rediscovered this phenomenon and called it the Law of Gravity.
The sanskrit word 'graha' is generally translated as 'planets', in astronomical context. This is a mistake, IMHO. The actual meaning of 'graha' is 'grasping'. So, in astronomical context, the word 'graha' should mean 'a body that exerts attractive force on earth'.
9 Grahas are listed by Indians:
1) Sun (Ravi/Aditya)
2) Moon (Soma/Chandra)
3) Mars (Mangal)
4) Mercury (Budha)
5) Jupiter (Guru/Brihaspati)
6) Venus (Shukra)
7) Saturn (Shani)
8 ) Rahu
Rahu and Ketu are called chaya(shadow) graha(bodies exerting attractive force on earth). They are merely shadow bodies and therefore, the actual grahas are only 7. These 7 grahas are used to denote the 7 weekdays.
1) Sun (Ravi/Aditya) - Sunday (In Indian astrology, Sun is considered the King of the grahas).
2) Moon (Soma/Chandra) - Moonday or Monday ( In Indian astrology, Moon is considered a minister or a weak king of the grahas. Moon is called Soma. 'Soma' also means elixir. Essentially, Moon is considered the reason for the formation of medicinal
3) Mars (Mangal) - Tuesday (in Latin, it is called dies of Mars i.e. day of Mars. Mars is a god of war according to the romans. The etymology of Tuesday comes from 'Tiw's day' Tiw is a god of war just like Mars. In fact, one could say that Tiw is another avatar of Mars. But, why is Mars associated with wars? In Indian astrology/jyothishya, there is a dosha called Mangala. People with this dosha are called Mangliks. If an unmarried person has a mangala dosha, then he/she should marry a person with the same dosha. The idea is that a person with mangala dosha(Mars affliction) will be aggressive and passionate. It is better if such a person marries another aggressive and passionate person. So, in Indian astrology, Mars symbolizes aggression and passion, not necessarily war. In Japanese, Tuesday is called fire day because Mars is called fire star.)
4) Mercury (Budha) - Wednesday (in Latin, it is called dies of Mercury i.e. day of Mercury. The etymology of Wednesday comes from Woden's day. Woden is interpreted as the germanic mercury god.)
5) Jupiter (Guru/Brihaspati) - Thursday (in Latin, it is Jupiter's day. The etymology of Thursday is 'Thor's day'. Thor is a germanic god who weilds a mighty hammer.)
6) Venus (Shukra) - Friday (in Latin, it is dies of veneris i.e. a day of Venus. The etymology of Friday is 'Frigg's day'. The germanic goddess Frigg is associated with the roman goddess Venus)
7) Saturn (Shani) - Saturnday or Saturday
The 7 weekdays(starting with Sunday and ending with Saturday) is, thus, an Indian invention(or discovery), which was copied by others. They even wove theology around it(sabbaths
brihaspati wrote:So we now have assumptions of "quality" versus "quantity", "per capita" or not. I just wonder why people stick in their thumbs with a presumed position, without doing a research on their preferred position from sources that have no need to be hagiographic.
Take locomotives for example - the crucial design element that made steam locomotives possible was actually a certain small continental European country's innovation - and the design was stolen by the Brit now most illustriously assigned the glory of making the locomotive feasible.
Apart from that the debate about industrial revolution has been going on for a very long time - and British historians or their hagiographers in the colonies [like in India], whether Marxist or anti-Marxists - have spent a large part of heir career trying to deny the role of industrial espionage, circumstantial constraints of labour, as well as the needs of transAtlantic or so-called triangular slave trade - in sparking off "industrial revolution".
The whole issue of technological innovation is a hotly disputed one - and throughout history, technological innovation has primarily been driven by war+conquest, as well as copying and stealing others' stuff and adapting it for a more advanced or different use. Almost every piece of legendary Roman technology was an adaptation from non-Roman sources, as goes most of the Greek invention stuff. There is a huge debate about how the "spinning jenny" idea went into Englishtan. If non-hagiographic research had resources to support it - many of the so-called "industrial revolution" aspects of Britistan would be traceable to non-Brit sources.
Yes, capitalist development is a hotly disputed area even in European context - and people from Dobb, Schumpeter to people down the feeding chain ever since have been fighting over it - whether it was the Church- or Puritans or monarchical intervention - or constraints of labour, as well as capital accumulation from colonial looting and slave trade or early extreme exploitation of Brit's own labour of the disempowered sections of the populace.
For India, capital accumulation could not take place becuase of factors that can be explicitly traced to Islam - and the Muslim way of rule in India, including the mughals. There are some indications that it might have been going the capitalist way - in a faintly identifiable form - through the development of the "state" karkhanas. but other aspects of the economic regime that Islamism and Muslims imposed on the society meant that no meaningful capital accumulation would take place. The economy was virtualy stagnant from the time of the Ghoris and decreased slightly over the centuries.
From Khalji times the explciit policy of bare survival/[labour reproduction onlee] policy of Islamism was made official, leaving little or no surplus to be reinvested. Mughal policy was no heavenly advance - as the temporary relaxation was countered by the extreme exploitation needed to coerce the population as well as maintain the lavish decadence of the aamirs and their retinue. Mughal empure was a progressive story of land alienation, de-agrarianization, forestation. Both sultanate and mughal actively maintained a policy of exporting Indian labour into slavery into CAR, but did not invest the profits of thsi CAR slave trade into the economy - rather for their pleasures of the flesh and futile wars or importing overpriced islamist items from the Gulf/Persia.
Now where exactly do people want to compare and raise India and indian economy in comparison to UK for this matter?
brihaspati wrote:The so-called famous inventions and innovations - even tracking the most often shouted about ones -
(1) iron and steel works [tools for slave trade - and the earliest concentration/marekt developed in Bristol - the main port for slave trade]
(2) cotton spinners - people should look up on the shape and spatial positioning of the axle/axis of rotation. The "invention" happened onlee after, onlee after EIC took up control over the spinners of India, and came in touch Indian spindles.
(3) military rockets - again from India, stolen from Tipu's arsenal and adapted for naval warfare
Indian innovation flourished more in the areas where Islamic military/state rule had less time, or penetrated later. For example, by a miracle, too, Liebnitz and Newton simultaneously "invented" calculus - after, after, Europeans came in touch with the Kerala school of maths. The further north - greater the luminance of Islamism in India - lesser the luminance of intellectual signs, and inventions.
Why do most of European "technological" innovation come onlee after colonial/trade/scholarly contact with India and China? All in an explosive burst after the twin fall of Islamist Spain and Constantinople - and the libraries/books/scholars dispersed and seeking patronage of the numerous princelings cropping up post plague? This is the same phenomena that characterizes the burst of Arab genius onlee after the fall of the university townships of India and "greater India" to Islamic hordes. Once that phase passes - no inventions - unfortunately.
Look at the great innovators of UK - in its pre-colonial and colonial phase. One of the most famous engineering innovators, responsible for suspension bridges and railways and "metro" and propeller ships - was actually French. It was also continental Europeans who created iron cannons for the sadistical philanderer of a monarch - Henry VIII.
Capital formation is always a complex issue. Its not always a straightforward question of "quality" vs "quantity".
brihaspati wrote:The really really pious who would be trusted with such manuscripts at the repositories at V- would be vetted to make sure that they do not say or reveal anything that lowers imperial icons. With such a great sarcastic knowledge of the process, surely the process by which someone can gain access is also very very well known to be used for sarcasm?
A non-pious can try and and see what happens. For that matter, much of the original manuscripts of the early "genius-es" of Europe are not available. Much of Newton's voluminous "works" are still "missing". Brits are particularly adept at destroying incriminating evidence - especially any info that might lower the image or stature of any of their icons. Its all in the "national interest" onlee.
But there is also an intersting angle to this - more Indians are up bristling in righteous anger, at perceived diminishing of British image, and bringing their admirable talents at sarcasm all directed at fellow Indians who are supposedly insinuating against the Brits. Thats diversity and liberalism, "nuanced views" which is onlee to be given by Indians to Brits but never returned in favour by the Brits.
Link to original posts
brihaspati wrote:Did India's population remain constant? Any awareness of any sources based on which calculations have been attempted? On what sort of assumptions of constant rates for 1000-2000 years? Which proxies have been used? Did the authors themselves find Mughal records reliable? What are the models used to extrapolate?
The three who are most quoted - all appear to agree, two of them as late as 2010, that that "ubiquitious" "per capita" thingie actually decreased during the latter part of Mughal rule and decreased at a faster rate on Brit colonial transition.
To understand the concept of divine years and solar years better:
devesh wrote:Sri Rama is supposed to have been born in the 26th Mahayuga of the Vaivaswata Manvantara.
we are** in the 28th Mahayuga. Krishna and the Krishna-Dwaipayana Vyasa both belong to the current - 28th - Mahayuga.
**as per Bhagavatham.
Yep, Sri Rama was born in this Manvantara but different Mahayuga.
1 Mahayuga = 1 Krita(17,28,000) + 1 Treta(12,96,000) + 1 Dwapara(8,64,000) + 1 Kali(4,32,000) = 43,20,000 years.
Dwapara = 2*Kali; Treta = 3*Kali; Krita = 4*Kali;
1 Mahayuga = 1 Krita + 1 Treta + 1 Dwapara + 1 Kali;
=> 1 Mahayuga = 4*Kali + 3*Kali + 2*Kali + 1*Kali;
=> 1 Mahayuga = 10*Kali;
=> 1 Mahayuga = 10 * (4,32,000) = 43,20,000 yrs;
1 Manvantara = 71 Mahayugas.(There are also Sandhi periods).
1 Kalpa = 14 Manvantaras.
Every Manvantara has a Manu, Indra and a set of Saptarishis. Or in other words the positions of Manu, Indra and Saptarishis have a term(allocated time period) of 1 Manvantara. So, a single Kalpa has 14 Manus(& 14 sets of Saptarishis).
The list of 14 Manus are:
01)Svayambhuva Manu(The Dhruva/polestar episode happened in this Manvantara. Dhruva was a descendent of this Manu).
07)Vaivasvata Manu (current Manu and Manvantara)
14)Indra-savarni Manu Wiki Link
1 Kalpa forms a daytime of Lord Brahma. There is an equivalent night time for Lord Brahma when there is no creation. He rests at this time. So 24 hr period of Lord Brahma is equal to 2 Kalpas.
1 Single Day of Lord Brahma = 2 Kalpas.
360 such days = 1 year for Lord Brahma.
Total lifetime of Lord Brahma is 100 such years.
A Vishnu day is equivalent to the whole life span of Brahma. The whole life span of Vishnu is equivalent to a day of 'Rudra'. The whole life span of Rudra is equivalent to a day of lord Shiva. In the whole life of lord Shiva five lakh and four thousand numbers of Rudras come and go.
A Shiva's day commences with the creation and before the end of the night the whole creation gets annihilated. Sadashiva is eternal.(According to Shiva Mahapuranam.Link
Presently, we live in 1st Kalpa(1st day) of 51st year of Lord Brahma(50 yrs of Lord Brahma are completed and 51st is running). The name of this Kalpa is Shwetavaraha(White Boar) Kalpa. The name comes from Varaha avatara(of Lord Vishnu) which appeared at the starting of this Kalpa. Lord Varaha slew Hiranya-aksha(uncle of Prahladdha) and saved Bhumata(Earth). Then, He settled down at Tirupati. Later(in the present Kali Yuga), Lord Venkateshwara leased Tirupati from Lord Varaha for a period of 1 Kali Yuga(present Kali Yuga).
Presently, we live in 7th Manvantara(6 Manvantaras are completed and 7th is running). The present Manu is Vaivasvata Manu(son of Vivasvan/sun->Kasyapa->Marichi->Brahma). Ikshvaku is the son of Vaivasvata Manu. The descendents of Ikshvaku established Surya Vamsha(into which Lord Rama was born) with Ayodhya as the seat. The famous Maandhata, Raghu, and Ambarisha were born in Surya Vamsha. Vaivasvata Manu had another progeny named Ila who married Buddha/Mercury(son of Chandra/Moon). They had a son named Purarava. His descendents established Chandra Vamsha(into which Pandavas and Lord Sri Krishna were born). The famous Bharata, Nahusha, Yayati, Kuru, Puru, Yadu were all born in Chandra Vamsha.
Presently, we live in 28th Mahayuga(27 are completed and 28th is running). We live in Kali Yuga which started in 3102 BCE. Krita, Treta, Dwapara of the present Mahayuga are completed.
Lord Sri Krishna appeared in the Dwapara Yuga of present 28th Mahayuga(i.e approx 5000yrs ago). Lord Sri Rama appeared in Treta Yuga of 24th Mahayuga.
So, the time lapse between Lord Sri Rama's appearance to now would be:
Dwapara Yuga(24th Mahayuga) + Kali Yuga(24th Mahayuga) + entire 25th Mahayuga + entire 26th Mahayuga + entire 27th Mahayuga + Krita Yuga(28th Mahayuga) + Treta Yuga(28th Mahayuga) + Dwapara Yuga(28th Mahayuga) + Present Kali Yuga(so far i.e. 3102BCE+2012CE=5112yrs);
=> 2*Kali + Kali + 10*Kali + 10*Kali + 10*Kali + 4*Kali + 3*Kali + 2*Kali + 5112;
=> 42*Kali + 5112;
=> 42*(4,32,000) + 5112;
=> 1,81,44,000 + 5112;
=> 1,81,49,112 yrs;
A minor Pralaya (annihilation/destruction) happens at the end of every yuga. The pralaya which happened around 3102 was Mahabharata War and dessication of river Saraswati. At the end of a Chaturyuga/Mahayuga (4 yuga cycle), there is a bigger pralaya. At the end of Kalpa, the creation ceases.
Each Mahayuga has its own Vyasa figure. Vyasa means editor/compiler. The job of Vyasa is to compile or edit the Vedas and Puranas so that they are intelligible
and accessible to people of later Yugas(particularly Kali Yuga). Krishna Dwaipayana(son of Satyavati) is the Vyasa figure of the present Mahayuga. Other people have occupied that position before. For example, Krishna Dwaipayana's father Parashara was Vyasa figure for a certain Mahayuga. And Valmiki(who authored Srimadh Ramayana) was also a Vyasa figure for a certain Mahayuga.
- According to Vishnu Puranam(by Samavedam Shanmukha Sharma) and other sources.
Pentiah garu, Edited it.
EDIT: Earlier I wrote Sri Rama was born in 26th Mahayuga(from memory). But, it seems, I was wrong. It is not 26th Mahayuga, but 24th Mahayuga. Accordingly, I am changing the calculations. Link
RajeshA wrote:Or Kali Yuga may already be over, depending on how one interprets the Yuga Cycle Calendar!
The Daivik Kali Yuga is long (432,000 years) but the Manavik Kali Yuga may be much shorter (1200 years, 3,000 years depending on the model).
after Kali Yuga, Krita Yuga will come(not Dwapara). Conditions in Krita Yuga have been given in MB. I have posted them in one of the previous posts in this thread. You can check whether those conditions are satisfied or not.
In fact, all the conditions given for Kali are well satisfied.
Also, you are wrong saar. Daivik is shorter(12000), while the human one is longer (432000). In fact, the concept here is of relativity of time (and time dilation). The rate of time for Devas is slower than that of human beings. Similarly, rate of time in heavenly planes is slower than that of lower planes. So, the same time period is equal to 12000yrs for Devas, while it is equal to 432000 yrs for humans. The rate of time is based on velocity according to modern science. While, in Hinduism, rate of time is an inherent quality of a plane(and different planes having different rates of time).
So, a single day for Brahma is equal to 4.32 billion yrs(432 crore yrs). To Brahma, it seems like a normal time(within a single day). But, to human beings, it is an exceptionally long time. What happens if a human being were to travel to Brahma Loka and spend some time there? Then, such a human being's aging process will also slow down(due to the affect of Brahma Loka). They would not know the difference, it would feel normal to them.
There is a incident on this:
Revati was the only daughter of King Kakudmi (sometimes called Kakudmin, or Raivata), a powerful monarch who ruled Kusasthali, a prosperous and advanced kingdom under the sea, and who also controlled large tracts of land, including Anarta kingdom. Feeling that no human could prove to be good enough to marry his lovely and talented daughter, King Kakudmi took Revati with him to Brahma-loka (the plane of existence where Lord Brahma, the Creator, resides) to ask Lord Brahma's advice about finding a suitable husband for Revati.
When they arrived, Lord Brahma was listening to a musical performance by the Gandharvas, so they waited patiently until the performance was finished. Then, Kakudmi bowed humbly, made his request and presented his shortlist of candidates. Lord Brahma laughed loudly, and explained that time runs differently on different planes of existence, and that during the short time they had waited in Brahma-loka to see him, 27 chatur-yugas (a chatur-yuga is a cycle of four yugas, or Ages of Man, hence 27 chatur-yugas total 108 yugas) had passed on Earth (see time dilation theory). Also see the astronomical explanation. Lord Brahma said to Kakudmi, "O King, all those whom you may have decided within the core of your heart to accept as your son-in-law have passed away in the course of time. Twenty-seven chatur-yugas have already passed. Those upon whom you may have already decided are now gone, and so are their sons, grandsons and other descendants. You cannot even hear about their names."abhiyātaḥ — have passed; tri — three; nava — nine; chatur-yuga — four yugas; vikalpitaḥ — thus measured.  'for many successions of ages have died whilst you were listening to our songsters: now upon earth the twenty-eighth great age of the present Manu is nearly finished, and the Kali period is at hand.' You must therefore bestow this virgin gem (i.e. Revati) upon some other husband, for you are now alone, and your friends, your ministers, servants, wives, kinsmen, armies, and treasures, have long since been swept away by the hand of time."
King Kakudmi was overcome with astonishment and alarm at this news. However, Lord Brahma comforted him, and added that Lord Vishnu, the Preserver, was currently incarnate on Earth in the forms of Krishna and Balarama, and he recommended Balarama as a worthy husband for Revati.
Kakudmi and Revati then returned to earth, which they regarded as having left only just a short while ago. They were shocked by the changes that had taken place. Not only had the landscape and environment changed, but over the intervening 27 chatur-yugas, in the cycles of human spiritual and cultural evolution, mankind was at a lower level of development than in their own time (see Ages of Man). The Bhagavata Purana describes that they found the race of men had become "dwindled in stature, reduced in vigour, and enfeebled in intellect."
Marriage to Balarama
Daughter and father found Balarama and proposed the marriage. Because she was from an earlier yuga, Revati was far taller and larger than her husband-to-be, but Balarama, "beholding the damsel of excessively lofty height," tapped his plough (his characteristic weapon) on her head and she shrunk to the normal height of people in that yugas. The marriage was then duly celebrated.
Revati bore her husband two sons, Nisatha and Ulmuka. Both her sons Nisatha and Ulmuka were killed in the Yadu fratricidal war, after which Balarama also ended his earthly incarnation in meditation by the sea. At his funeral ceremony, Revati ascended onto his funeral pyre and was immolated with him.
You are uncomfortable with the long timelines given by traditional Yugas(because they are incompatible with modern science). So, you want to take up the Yukteshwar model. Fine. In fact, it seems even Yukteshwar was trying to fit Yugas into science of his time.
But, frankly, Indian time periods are incompatible with modern science. Simple. Lets say we accept Yukteshwar model that means 12000 years is equal to one Mahayuga(Krita+Treta+Dwapara+Kali). 12000 years seems like a reasonable time period which would be acceptable to the modern science. But, there is a glitch. Indian history does not start with this Mahayuga. No. The Indian history(particularly Hindu history) starts from this Manvantara.
Please see the following post:http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1339211#p1339211
Sri Rama was born in 24th Mahayuga's Treta Yuga. We currently live in 28th Mahayuga's Kali Yuga. So how much time elapsed between Rama and us, if we take one Mahayuga to be 12000 yrs? 51, 312 yrs. How much time elapsed from Ikshvaku(start of manvantara)? 3,39,012 yrs. Are these figures acceptable to modern science? No. So, even if the Yuga periods are shortened, the modern science is incompatible with the Indian one.
A good source of time and its divisions: Harivamsam Ch 8
Hari Vamsam is considered a sequel of MB.