Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

[ernest]

Army has already tested the 105mm Garuda from Bharat Forge by para dropping it from a C-17 and having it ready to fire in 3 minutes!

Twitter link

Baba Kalyani is so awesome. Hope his investments into cutting edge artillery development and production gets him the much deserved orders soon.

[Rakesh]

L&T Precision Engineering & Systems Wins (Major*) Order for K9 Vajra-T Artillery Platforms
https://www.larsentoubro.com/pressrelea ... platforms/
23 Dec 2024

[Rakesh]

Listen to the gyan from Lt Gen PR Shankar (retd), former DG of Artillery, Indian Army.

You cannot go and buy a gun like brinjals* - Lt Gen Shankar (retd). Dialogue of the year!
*eggplant for my North American readers

VIDEO: https://x.com/wartrophy_414/status/1872919896113516686 ---> Sirji wo toh chalo Defence Minister ya CAS na ban paye, you were the DG Artillery of the IA, do I need to remind the state of India's artillery even when you were in charge? Forget that, if anyone wonders why private industry is hesitant about putting more money into defence R&D, watch this...

https://x.com/wartrophy_414/status/1872919899234050497 ---> Tell me again why a small country like Armenia and even Morocco can randomly come to India, see the guns on offer by a private company & instantly order them but the DG artillery of our country says "the gun isn't proven, there's a process" what not. Watch every interview of Baba Kalyani, you will always hear a tone of disappointment whenever they mention trials since they have to put hundreds of crores in just trials and evaluations of IA. Or yahan DG arty bol dete hai it's not proven about a new gun, han bhai phirse few hundred crores dubao or evaluation karwake 8-10 saal baad order dena. The same gun which "isn't proven" is with their 155/39cal MGS which is already having export order, even that MGS isn't proven because it hasn't gone through the "process". Then arrogance aisa hai ki world class artillery leke baithe hai.

[Manish_P]

^ That is the reason why i pin a large percentage of hopes on export orders. Once those are significant in number and wide-spread, import lobby folks who currently hide their testimonials behind banana leaves will not get even tobacco leaves to do so.

I suspect our RM has realized this and is pushing for exports while going slow on imports (chai-biskoot committees). The PM is constrained as he is really the pan-India vote winner for the NDA and this is really his last term. If the NDA lose power to Clown prince and gang we can fully expect whatever little progress made to be wiped out within a year. One just needs to remember Saint Anthony's tenure and what effect it had on our military inventory and procurement programs.

[Rakesh]

Listen to the gyan from Lt Gen PR Shankar (retd), former DG of Artillery, Indian Army.

You cannot go and buy a gun like brinjals* - Lt Gen Shankar (retd). Dialogue of the year!
*eggplant for my North American readers

VIDEO: https://x.com/wartrophy_414/status/1872919896113516686 ---> Sirji wo toh chalo Defence Minister ya CAS na ban paye, you were the DG Artillery of the IA, do I need to remind the state of India's artillery even when you were in charge? Forget that, if anyone wonders why private industry is hesitant about putting more money into defence R&D, watch this...

https://x.com/noir_2207/status/1872928096753774699 ---> What does "Proven" mean here? How can you even say that an equipment is not proven without even using it at least in limited numbers? What are you expecting...foreign customer will buy it first then after observing them in service, you will decide if it's capable or not?

https://x.com/noir_2207/status/1872929557659242913 ---> Were T-90s proven in Himalayas before we decided to operate 1,800 of them ? What about BMP-2? What about K-9 SPGs? Do I need to remind how we upgraded them in haste for High Altitude operations.

https://x.com/wartrophy_414/status/1872931592777416958 ---> Yeah most people would not know, we bought K-9s without having them go through Himalayan winter trials, we purchased winter mod kits later to push them to LAC post 2020 standoff. Ab aise hi kisi IDDM system ke induction ki baat kar lo toh heart attack aa jayega ki sara not proven.

[Zynda]

This is where I am not very happy with current RM. Ideally, these kinds of BS should be called out by MoD/DefMin (I am hoping it is happening behind the scenes but looking at the piece meal orders being placed on ATAGS & other indigenous products...the optics says that I'm placing token orders to avoid back clash about not supporting domestic programs but I really want an import).

At least I am happy that some of these products are satisfying & being ordered by foreign customers where our IDDM products are being selected through competition (not donating or baksheesh that used to happen with some of our earlier products). Also, appreciate that GoI is allowing export of defense products.

[Mukesh.Kumar]

Listen to the gyan from Lt Gen PR Shankar (retd), former DG of Artillery, Indian Army.

You cannot go and buy a gun like brinjals* - Lt Gen Shankar (retd). Dialogue of the year!
*eggplant for my North American readers

VIDEO: https://x.com/wartrophy_414/status/1872919896113516686 ---> Sirji wo toh chalo Defence Minister ya CAS na ban paye, you were the DG Artillery of the IA, do I need to remind the state of India's artillery even when you were in charge? Forget that, if anyone wonders why private industry is hesitant about putting more money into defence R&D, watch this...

https://x.com/noir_2207/status/1872928096753774699 ---> What does "Proven" mean here? How can you even say that an equipment is not proven without even using it at least in limited numbers? What are you expecting...foreign customer will buy it first then after observing them in service, you will decide if it's capable or not?

https://x.com/noir_2207/status/1872929557659242913 ---> Were T-90s proven in Himalayas before we decided to operate 1,800 of them ? What about BMP-2? What about K-9 SPGs? Do I need to remind how we upgraded them in haste for High Altitude operations.

https://x.com/wartrophy_414/status/1872931592777416958 ---> Yeah most people would not know, we bought K-9s without having them go through Himalayan winter trials, we purchased winter mod kits later to push them to LAC post 2020 standoff. Ab aise hi kisi IDDM system ke induction ki baat kar lo toh heart attack aa jayega ki sara not proven.

I used to follow the YouTube channel, but recently especially with the Bangladesh crisis, I am a little disappointed with the quality of discourse. Not only do some of the people seem out of touch with reality (all talks of shared culture and ethos, etc) but their refusal to discuss options beyond status quo is disappointing.

Coming to Artillery and induction of weapons, all I hear from them are:
1. It takes long.
2. Indian industry is not investing enough.

If this is the case, what did you do when you were there? Why don't you constructively criticize and discuss solutions. What were you doing when you were in service?

While we respect the uniform, the need for secrecy, and the long years of service, it does not mean people cannot be open to criticism.

[srai]

Why still the hesitation from the IA on ordering IDDM artillery?

Clearly “world-class” … what more?

[Rakesh]

Why still the hesitation from the IA on ordering IDDM artillery?

Clearly “world-class” … what more?

Not phoren maal Saar. How can desi maal be world class? Come on!

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AjayshreeSamby3/status/18 ... 6943622359 ---> Senior representative of a top private defence company of India on TV brought to notice the clear discriminatory approach when it comes to bringing a PSU contract to fruition versus when it comes to a private company dividends.

So reminding all: 666 DAYS SINCE ATAGS GOT DAC CLEARANCE

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1878631346362573125 ---> India plans to ink at least 4 mega defence deals for 26 Rafale marine fighters, 3 Scorpene submarines, 156 Prachand light combat helicopters and 307 towed artillery guns ATAGS, collectively worth over Rs 1.5 lakh crore, before this fiscal ends on March 31.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/Sputnik_India/status/1878754806442889370 ---> Indian Army Chief breaks down India's modernisation plan for Pinaka and ATAGS. "If everything goes as planned, we hope to sign a contract for approximately 307 ATAGS, worth around ₹8,000 crore, before the end of this financial year."

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1878761130619003240 ---> Massive 6,000 crore and 4,500 crore orders in coming days. Extended Pinaka is getting praised by Army Chief: Both DRDO and Solar Industries deserve a praise here.

[mody]

In an interview on YouTube, Lt. Gen PR Shankar that the concept of shoot and scoot in the mountains doesn't exist. He explained this with regards to the logistics chain of moving the ammunition and charges and not just the guns.
He was categorical that IA does not employ shoot and scoot method in the mountains.
However, at same time he was adamant that the ATAGS would be a sitting duck in the mountains, due to excess weight. This did not make complete sense to me. He mentioned that the soil and terrain conditions in the Himalayas is very fragile and moving such large and heavy equipment is very difficult. Even the recoil of the gun etc. would put a lot of pressure on the ground. Finding suitable places where a reasonable number of guns can be deployed in the mountains is a challenge. This seemed to be the most important point made by him, against higher number of ATAGS guns.

He was always opposed to the ATAGS program and its choice of a 25 liter chamber, as opposed to the 23 liter chamber of the Bofors. In fact he says that the original plan was to order only 150 ATAGS guns and that IA has now increased the number to 307, to make the program feasible. The main thrust will be a lighter variant of the ATAGS with a 23 liter chamber.

Even the truck mounted guns are not suitable for deployment in the Himalayas, due to the total weight of the system, as opposed to towed guns. As mentioned above, the shoot and scoot concept is not relevant to the mountains, as per the General.

[Ramesh]

As a veteran gunner, I humbly disagree with the Gen.
Shoot and scoot is very much applicable in the mountains. The only areas where it's not possible are the ones where we have faiped to develop a road network.
I have seen the ATAGS fire in the mountains, during its trials and it is beyond anything we have currently. The weight also gives it an advantage in certain tactical situations, where you need multiple rounds from a single gun to land on or near the same spot. Earlier, the best gun for these situations was the 130mm, ATAGS beats it hands down. We took a decade plus to induct an almost ready Swathi, I don't know how long we will take to induct it in large numbers.

[A Deshmukh]

Shoot and scoot is very much applicable in the mountains

I remember the video of the general.
More than shoot and scoot, he mentioned the loose soil of the Himalayan mountains as the reason. The larger gun has a larger recoil, which creates issues due to the soil.
what is your opinion on this aspect?

[Manish_P]

As a veteran gunner, I humbly disagree with the Gen.
Shoot and scoot is very much applicable in the mountains. The only areas where it's not possible are the ones where we have faiped to develop a road network.
I have seen the ATAGS fire in the mountains, during its trials and it is beyond anything we have currently. The weight also gives it an advantage in certain tactical situations, where you need multiple rounds from a single gun to land on or near the same spot. Earlier, the best gun for these situations was the 130mm, ATAGS beats it hands down. We took a decade plus to induct an almost ready Swathi, I don't know how long we will take to induct it in large numbers.

Thank you for your service, Ramesh ji, and it's great to have you contribute your knowledge on this forum! Looking forward to more first-hand informative posts whenever you can.

[Ramesh]

Shoot and scoot is very much applicable in the mountains

I remember the video of the general.
More than shoot and scoot, he mentioned the loose soil of the Himalayan mountains as the reason. The larger gun has a larger recoil, which creates issues due to the soil.
what is your opinion on this aspect?

Loose soil is not something that cannot be overcome. We have had guns firing even when there was no soil of any kind, just rocks. Find some sand or soil from a nearby area, fill it in gunny bags, and place them below the trails for the gun to embed. It's all a matter of minor drills which any unit worth its salt will do. To draw an analogy, what do the Russians do for firing their 130mm in winter? The frozen ground doesn't permit the trails to embed in the ground. So, they have modified the trails of their guns and have a separable summer spade.
If the will is there, these are not insurmountable problems.

[A Deshmukh]

Loose soil is not something that cannot be overcome. We have had guns firing even when there was no soil of any kind, just rocks. Find some sand or soil from a nearby area, fill it in gunny bags, and place them below the trails for the gun to embed.

which means the firing site needs some preparation. cannot be just shoot and scoot and shoot from somewhere else. heavier guns mean more preparation. i think that's what the general meant.
what I fail to understand is that if ATAGS is not meant for the Himalayas, why did they spend years on hi altitude testing? they could have just ordered it for the western front and get going. or maybe they reached the conclusion only after rigorous testing of ATAGS.

[srai]

^^^
There will be lead teams surveying sites and prepping areas ahead of the guns arrival. Don’t think it is shoot and scoot from wherever it likes.

[Jay]

which means the firing site needs some preparation. cannot be just shoot and scoot and shoot from somewhere else. heavier guns mean more preparation. i think that's what the general meant.
what I fail to understand is that if ATAGS is not meant for the Himalayas, why did they spend years on hi altitude testing? they could have just ordered it for the western front and get going. or maybe they reached the conclusion only after rigorous testing of ATAGS.

Of course the firing site needs some prep work. The general is a chronic complainer when it comes to indigenous products and will always want to have the last point, however needless it might be. At this point it's best to ignore people like him who come with "i know best for everybody" attitude, especially when their points are asinine and can be proved incorrect with open sources.

[VinodTK]

Army pushes for desi Pinaka rockets, to ink Rs 10,200 crore deals within this fiscal

NEW DELHI: The Army is now putting its full weight behind the indigenous Pinaka multi-launch artillery rocket systems, with orders worth Rs 10,200 crore for its ammunition to be cleared soon, even as India is also exporting the systems to other countries.

Army chief General Upendra Dwivedi said two Pinaka contracts — Rs 5,700 crore for high-explosive pre-fragmented ammunition and Rs 4,500 crore for area denial munitions — are all set to be inked before the current fiscal ends on March 31. These orders will cater for the 10 Pinaka regiments already ordered by the over 11-lakh strong Army, which also has three Russian-origin Smerch and five Grad rocket regiments.

While the force has inducted four Pinaka regiments, with some of the launchers also deployed in high-altitude areas along the northern borders with China, the other six are in the process of being inducted to add “more punch and lethality” to its arsenal. “The Pinaka is one of the best rocket systems in the world. Its regiments have been high-altitude enabled,” a senior officer said.

The high-explosive pre-fragmented ammunition has a strike range of 45 km, while the aerial denial munitions can be launched to a distance of 37 km. The latter have the capability to saturate a target area with multiple bomblets, including anti-tank and anti-personnel minelets.

DRDO has developed a variety of ammunition for the Pinaka, including rockets with 45-km extended range and 75-km guided extended range. With the plan underway to further enhance the range first to 120 km and then to 300 km, Gen Dwivedi said, “As soon as we get longer ranges, we might drop plans for other alternate long-range weapons we are looking at and concentrate on it (Pinaka).”

The six new Pinaka regiments, under contracts inked with defence PSU Bharat Earth Movers Ltd and private sector companies Tata Advanced Systems and Larsen & Toubro, comprise 114 launchers with automated gun aiming and positioning systems and 45 command posts, along with 330 vehicles. “They are equipped with electronically and mechanically improved weapon systems capable of firing a variety of ammunition over longer ranges,” another officer said.

India is also stepping-up plans to export the Pinaka system, along with other products like BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles and Akash air defence missile systems, to ‘friendly’ countries.

The former Soviet republic of Armenia, for instance, is importing both Pinaka and Akash systems, as earlier reported by TOI. Some Asean, African and European countries have also shown interest in acquiring the Pinaka systems. Another major deal to be inked within this fiscal for the Army’s Regiment of Artillery will be the Rs 8,500 crore one for 307 indigenous advanced towed artillery gun systems, which is touted to have a strike range of 48 km.

[Adrija]

May I suggest we adopt a slightly more patient approach- the government is making the unobtanium outlook of the generals die out by slow asphyxiation- denial of imports (the lists which they periodically come out with on an ever expanding basis), working with Indian industry (including HAL/ DRDO etc but also the Indian private sector) to induct and incrementally improve. I agree some steps are not ideal (e.g., K-9 Vajra instead of ATAGS) and also the Adani "viola" white labeling approach.... but these are all the first steps to build local alternates.... and within ten years there is widespread acknowledgement that the armed forces by 2035-40 need to be substantially armed with local platforms.... that is itself a huge change

Of course I also would have liked for everything to be much much faster but mindsets unfortunately take time to change. Also, I agree that this is still very brittle and - God forbid- any change in government back to UPA will undo all the progress... but that is life...

[Kartik]

May I suggest we adopt a slightly more patient approach- the government is making the unobtanium outlook of the generals die out by slow asphyxiation- denial of imports (the lists which they periodically come out with on an ever expanding basis), working with Indian industry (including HAL/ DRDO etc but also the Indian private sector) to induct and incrementally improve. I agree some steps are not ideal (e.g., K-9 Vajra instead of ATAGS) and also the Adani "viola" white labeling approach.... but these are all the first steps to build local alternates.... and within ten years there is widespread acknowledgement that the armed forces by 2035-40 need to be substantially armed with local platforms.... that is itself a huge change

Of course I also would have liked for everything to be much much faster but mindsets unfortunately take time to change. Also, I agree that this is still very brittle and - God forbid- any change in government back to UPA will undo all the progress... but that is life...

K9 Vajra instead of ATAGS? What're you talking about? They're not even the same class of systems! One is a SPH and the other is a towed howitzer.

If anything, L&T should've been given a larger order of at least 150-200 units for K9 Vajra as a reward for having delivered their first batch of 100 K9s EARLIER than scheduled. Something as an incentive to private sector industries in a sector that is rife with delays.

As things stand, even Pakistan has a larger number of SPHs that India. That too when we have an active assembly line building one of the more modern ones in the world.

[Adrija]

K9 Vajra instead of ATAGS? What're you talking about? They're not even the same class of systems! One is a SPH and the other is a towed howitzer.

If anything, L&T should've been given a larger order of at least 150-200 units for K9 Vajra as a reward for having delivered their first batch of 100 K9s EARLIER than scheduled. Something as an incentive to private sector industries in a sector that is rife with delays.

As things stand, even Pakistan has a larger number of SPHs that India. That too when we have an active assembly line building one of the more modern ones in the world.

Kartik ji, my bad- I was not equating K-9 and ATAGS, just saying that I would have preferred for a IDDM product t to be inducted as swiftly if not more than a IM product

And as mentioned later in my post, a locally assembled product (eg K9) and all of Adani’s white labeled offerings still represent a major step forward

Hope that clarifies

[Aditya_V]

The only reason K-9 was delivered but without ability to work at high altitude and many modifications to work in Indian conditions was because the Koreans had already built a production ecosystem- L&T was screwdrivergiri. If K-9 depended on the paltry Indian 100 orders it would have never been delivered. It is Indian Bargain/ Trader/ short cut/ easy route mentality which has failed for a 1000 years. Why try and breed horses in India when you can import them in ship loads during the next 6 months.

[Aditya_V]

Pakistan is armed by China and USA- and Pakistan had better Missiles than India in the 1990's . As we went from Prithvi to Agni, Bramhos, Prahaar etc it disappeared. and Pakis exaggerate a lot- in past wars much of their equipment has shown to be unserviceable.

ATAGS, Dhanush Truck mounted MGS is correct way to go bypassing the import pasand folks.

and knowing Pakistani psychology- if they felt any advantage - they will escalate- they do not because they know the truth.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/JaidevJamwal/status/1881576591761007081 ---> Imagining an independent regiment of 120 km range guided rockets with every Army division. Every major Pakistani target in this area could be serviced from Jammu itself.

[Rakesh]

Posting this here - even though it is not related to Indian Artillery directly - but the Indian Army operates the same howitzer. We have a plethora of local guns available, but will order in piecemeal and snail mode onlee.

Ukraine Is Burning Through 155mm M777 Howitzer Barrels So Fast The U.S. Army Can’t Keep Up
https://www.twz.com/land/ukraine-is-bur ... nt-keep-up
21 Jan 2025

The U.S. Army is now trying to meet a requirement to produce at least 30 new barrels for M777 howitzers every month.

[Manish_P]

...
Ukraine Is Burning Through 155mm M777 Howitzer Barrels So Fast The U.S. Army Can’t Keep Up
https://www.twz.com/land/ukraine-is-bur ... nt-keep-up
21 Jan 2025

...

Admiral sir, the US fights (or supports) war which last for years, decades even.

We plan for wars which last less than a season.

[A Deshmukh]

Indian Army should have replacement barrels built by Bharat Forge in place. (I believe BF has the tech for titanium barrels now equivalent to M777)

[Yagnasri]

Bharat Forge has a lot of things. But we don't want to buy them.

[Aditya_V]

Posting this here - even though it is not related to Indian Artillery directly - but the Indian Army operates the same howitzer. We have a plethora of local guns available, but will order in piecemeal and snail mode onlee.

Ukraine Is Burning Through 155mm M777 Howitzer Barrels So Fast The U.S. Army Can’t Keep Up
https://www.twz.com/land/ukraine-is-bur ... nt-keep-up
21 Jan 2025

The U.S. Army is now trying to meet a requirement to produce at least 30 new barrels for M777 howitzers every month.

Based on the Afghan war in 1980's etc, where CIA Supplies to Pakis 'Mujahedeen" were many multiples of what was disclosed publicly at that time, US has probably given a lot of its M-777's which Ukraine has lost them in battle than what has been publicaly revealed- No US Media house or US Politician or any Russian Politician Media can give negative news during a war.

US is having replenish these supplies else the Frontline for Ukraine will collapse.
The M-777 was light gun meant for High altitude operations where Ammo supply, logistic supply will be limited like the LAC, LOC Etc, not for the Ukrainian plains areas. It is probably easier to get it to the Battlefield but the Ukrainians are also likely to loose a lot of them to counterbattery fire etc, or rapid Russian envelopments.

Notice how discussion of Wander wuffa like Archer, Ceaser etc has disappeared from Media headlines.

[Manish_P]

...
The M-777 was light gun meant for High altitude operations where Ammo supply, logistic supply will be limited...

Important point. However I think the weight reduction in the M777 was not in the barrel itself.

IIRC i think Ramana ji had posted a diagram of the M777 parts and where all titanium was used for weight reduction

The sheer volume of fire has probably created this issue.

[SRajesh]

Posting this here - even though it is not related to Indian Artillery directly - but the Indian Army operates the same howitzer. We have a plethora of local guns available, but will order in piecemeal and snail mode onlee.

Ukraine Is Burning Through 155mm M777 Howitzer Barrels So Fast The U.S. Army Can’t Keep Up
https://www.twz.com/land/ukraine-is-bur ... nt-keep-up
21 Jan 2025

The U.S. Army is now trying to meet a requirement to produce at least 30 new barrels for M777 howitzers every month.

If I remember Baba Kalyani's team had come up with two choices instead of M777:
1. One all titanium a costiler option yet cheaper than Unkil's
2. Cheaper other metal option
Both Whirly-bird compliant
And nothing happened no orders!

[Aditya_V]

I don't think Titanium is as sturdy as steel for high usage, M777 in the Indian Army will be restricted to High altitude areas where logistics is a constraint, plains Dhanush Atags etc are better suited

[Manish_P]

It's a good wake up call for those who thought that Artillery was dead in this age of kamikaze drone warfare.

[ernest]

If I remember Baba Kalyani's team had come up with two choices instead of M777:
1. One all titanium a costiler option yet cheaper than Unkil's
2. Cheaper other metal option
Both Whirly-bird compliant
And nothing happened no orders!

This should be raised at every possible forum/media. It is no longer the case that we lack industrial capacity in most areas. Our procurement systems are compromised.

On one hand, we have lack of equipment, and on the other hand, readymade top of the line products are awaiting orders/intent to order. We should be churning them out like crazy and building up our reserves and production capacity, if we are to deter China. We also risk losing critical talent for such sophisticated design and production. Exports might not be able to grow/sustain this crucial industrial capacity.

[Rakesh]

Posting this here - even though it is not related to Indian Artillery directly - but the Indian Army operates the same howitzer. We have a plethora of local guns available, but will order in piecemeal and snail mode onlee.

Ukraine Is Burning Through 155mm M777 Howitzer Barrels So Fast The U.S. Army Can’t Keep Up
https://www.twz.com/land/ukraine-is-bur ... nt-keep-up
21 Jan 2025

https://x.com/calm_sutra/status/1882282911409525142 ---> Ukraine is burning through its M777 barrels so fast, that the US is struggling to maintain supply. What will happen to ours when we start burning through them in the Himalayas? Screwdrivergiri and not backing indigenous products will extra a heavy toll.

[srai]

It's a good wake up call for those who thought that Artillery was dead in this age of kamikaze drone warfare.

Drone warfare is new. Current generation are typically good for few kilometers. Cheap and precise but still require manual operators.

Let’s see how it evolves (autonomous and range) in the coming decades.