Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by SSridhar »

ramana wrote: 15 Jul 2025 06:48 RaviB and SS despite the outpouring of criticism of XJP he is still firmly in charge.
That's correct, ramana.
That's why I said before that the rumours of his earlier disappearance and latest speculation of him likely being replaced were just that, rumours, howsoever we all wished them to be true.

In China, protests in their hundreds (or even thousands sometimes) happen every day all over. The State, PAP and the MSS handle them effectively. Though anything is possible, the PSC is stuffed with those hand-picked by XJP and are unlikely to revolt. It is the Politburo that we have to look at for any signs of dissension, if at all. AFAIK, there is no great threat for XJP at this point though the social compact he entered into with the Chinese society of giving them xiaokang & fuqiang, look to miss the timeline or even all together, unless Trump does something stupid.
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by wasu »

If you follow all the various outlets that report on CCP, there is consensus that Xi is done and only reason he is still in position is that the "Elders" are figuring out who will take Xis position. Details in video like this below (and the gory details of Li Keqiang assassination plot) would never come out if Xi was still in charge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSbIT-Hto1o

The Most insightful explanation of Xi Jinping and China’s Ruling Elite
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by ricky_v »

https://archive.is/MvNuu
A new wave of purges has engulfed the senior leadership of China’s military, the People’s Liberation Army. Since the 20th National Party Congress in October 2022, more than 20 senior PLA officers from all four services—the army, navy, air force, and rocket force—have disappeared from public view or been removed from their posts. The absences of other generals have also been reported, which could foreshadow additional purges.

Most notably, since the fall of 2023, three of the six uniformed members of the party’s Central Military Commission, the top body of the Chinese Communist Party charged with overseeing the armed forces, have been removed from their posts. The first to fall was Defense Minister Li Shangfu, who was removed in October 2023 and expelled from the CCP in June 2024. Then, this past November, Miao Hua, the director of the CMC’s Political Work Department, which manages personnel and party affairs, was suspended for “serious violations of discipline” before being formally removed from the CMC last month. And most recently, the Financial Times reported that He Weidong, the second-ranked vice chair who has not appeared in public since early March, had been purged.


Even stranger is the fact that all three generals had previously been promoted by Chinese leader Xi Jinping; they were appointed to the CMC itself in 2022, after Xi consolidated his control over the party at the 20th Party Congress. He Weidong was even a member of the Politburo, one of the party’s top decision-making bodies, comprised of the 24 highest-ranking party leaders. And Miao and He have been described by analysts as being part of a “Fujian faction” within the PLA, because the generals had been stationed in that province at the same time as Xi and are believed to have close ties with him.
Nevertheless, it is useful to remember that Beijing has rarely waited for the right conditions before ordering the PLA into battle. In 1950, for instance, Chinese forces intervened in support of Pyongyang in the Korean War, even though China’s economy and society had been devastated by years of civil war. In 1962, the PLA attacked India, even though China’s most senior military officer had recently been purged for questioning Mao Zedong’s disastrous Great Leap Forward. And in 1979, Beijing dispatched an ill-prepared PLA to Vietnam, where Chinese troops suffered significant losses for limited political gains. Now, as then, Chinese leaders may pursue war even if the domestic economic and political conditions appear unfavorable—and even if the PLA is not ready to fight.
First, a common reason for many purges is graft. Corruption has long plagued the PLA and the CCP more broadly. Since Xi came to power in 2012, Beijing has more than doubled its defense budget in order to fund the military’s rapid modernization. This flood of new money, especially related to weapons procurement and construction projects, has increased opportunities for officers and defense industry executives to pad their budgets or skim money off the top. Before becoming defense minister, Li had been in charge of the CMC’s weapons development department, which oversees the procurement process. A few months before Li’s dismissal, both the commander and commissar of the PLA Rocket Force, and two of the commissar’s deputies, were all detained. The PLARF’s rapid expansion on Li’s watch, including the construction of more than 300 silos and the significant expansion of its ballistic missile arsenal, likely offered many opportunities for self-enrichment.

Some generals may also have been purged because they were engaging in bribery related to promotions and patronage networks. This has been a long-standing problem for the PLA: often, the most well-connected officers, rather than the most competent ones, are promoted to higher ranks. Miao, the head of the Political Work Department, oversaw personnel and appointments. If the promotions he signed off on were not strictly merit-based, it may have contributed to his undoing. Miao’s predecessor, Zhang Yang, was placed under investigation in 2017 for similar reasons. Less than two months later, he died by suicide, and the following year, he was posthumously expelled from the party.

CMC members and other senior officers may also have been removed if they were deemed to be using personnel appointments to create their own power centers, or “mountaintops,” within the PLA. Senior officers who prioritize the accrual of personal power are a liability for Xi because they create conflicting loyalties and factional tensions within the armed forces that can harm operational readiness. Because Miao and He were newly appointed members of the CMC, they may have sought to strengthen their positions at the expense of veteran members, such as the first-ranked Vice Chair Zhang Youxia, a childhood friend of Xi’s. Xi has kept Zhang, now 75, on the CMC despite the normal retirement age of 68.
this touches upon points that most commentators rarely bother to follow, if a person is purged, then the line followed is that it is simply a matter of not towing the line of the top brass, and was removed for spurious reasons, there is always a possibility that with the rapid changes in chinese society, some of those purged had indulged in a bout of self-enrichment to the detriment of the wider party interest
Finally, it’s possible that the purged senior officers committed no offense at all beyond incompetence: Xi may simply have been dissatisfied with their performance and lost confidence in their ability to lead and achieve his goals for the PLA. As Joel Wuthnow and Phillip Saunders observed in their new book, China’s Quest for Military Supremacy, the structure of the relationship between the party and the armed forces makes it hard for Xi to trust his generals. The PLA enjoys substantial autonomy with little direct supervision, so the party must rely on the PLA to discipline itself. Moreover, the highly specialized nature of modern military affairs means that the party lacks the expertise to ensure that the PLA is meeting the party’s modernization goals.
If the CCP uncovered corruption in the weapons procurement system, for instance, the party leadership may doubt the reliability and performance of the advanced weapons systems developed and fielded over the past decade. According to U.S. intelligence, some of China’s new ballistic missiles were filled with water, not fuel, and the blast doors constructed for new silos needed to be repaired or replaced. Efforts are likely underway to review and recertify new and planned weapons systems to ensure they will function as expected, which may slow their development and deployment.


The purges also disrupt the functioning of the entire command system. The CMC, a six-member body that Xi chairs to oversee all aspects of the PLA, has 15 subordinate units.
Early the following decade, China attacked India’s forces on the two countries’ disputed border. At the time, Mao was on the back foot politically after his disastrous Great Leap Forward, an industrialization campaign in which as many as 45 million people perished in famines. Yet Chinese party and military leaders concluded that war was necessary to blunt Indian pressure on Tibet and restore stability to the Chinese-Indian border. Moreover, the attack occurred only a few years after Peng Dehuai, China’s top military officer throughout the 1950s, was purged for questioning the wisdom of the Great Leap Forward. Peng’s dismissal also led to the removal of other senior military officers who were seen as closely tied to him, shaking up the PLA high command. In this instance, China enjoyed overwhelming superiority on the battlefield, destroying Indian forces and achieving its political objectives, as India did not challenge China on the border militarily for the next two decades.
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by ricky_v »

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/china/af ... -mattingly
Soon, however, everything will start to change. As the CCP elite begins the search for a leader to replace the 72-year-old Xi, China is transitioning from a phase defined by power consolidation to one defined by the question of succession. For any authoritarian regime, political succession is a moment of peril, and for all its strengths, the CCP is no exception. The last time the party dealt with the problem of political succession—when Xi took over from Hu Jintao—rumors swirled in Beijing of coup attempts, failed assassinations, and tanks on the streets. The rumors may have been unfounded, but the political drama at the top was real.

Xi’s succession is unlikely to be as catastrophic, but the prelude, execution, and aftermath of transitioning power will shape China’s foreign and domestic politics in the coming years. The United States and its allies may be tempted to exploit this internal disruption, but meddling in the process would probably backfire. Instead, they should be mindful of the fact that, in the past, fights over succession have contributed to disastrous Chinese foreign policy choices. The vacuum left by a strongman such as Xi will make succession especially challenging, potentially triggering a scramble for power and a fight over the direction of the country. Such instability in the world’s second-largest economy could ripple beyond China’s borders—particularly as China navigates its tense relationship with Taiwan.
Since the founding of the People’s Republic of China, in 1949, only one of Xi’s five predecessors stepped aside fully and willingly. Mao, the strongman founder of communist China, wielded overwhelming power and authority within the party-state apparatus and ruled the country until the day he died. Hua Guofeng, Mao’s heir, was able to hold on to power for only a few years before being pushed aside. Deng Xiaoping, the famous architect of China’s economic reforms, maintained his grip over the CCP’s most important decisions even after relinquishing his formal titles and positions. Until his health declined in the mid-1990s, Deng was said to be the most powerful man in China, even though his only formal title was honorary president of an association of bridge players. The man who succeeded Deng as paramount leader, Jiang Zemin, clung to the important post of military chief despite giving up his position as party leader, undercutting his successor, Hu Jintao. Only Hu gave up power all at once in a relatively orderly succession, to Xi, but that process was tainted by the dramatic downfall of a Xi rival and powerful Politburo member, Bo Xilai.
Here, Hua Guofeng’s story is revealing. Mao selected Hua in 1976, when Mao’s health was failing. The problem for Hua was that he was a cadre of middling status and influence within the CCP: someone whom Mao and his allies could control, and not a figure who could survive a political knife fight. Mao had written Hua a note that read, “With you in charge, I am at ease.” But even Mao’s word was not enough to keep Hua in power. In the end, he needed the military’s backing.

On the night of September 8, 1976, as Mao hovered near death, senior members of the Politburo gathered in a sickroom in the leadership compound in Beijing to pay their final respects. The chairman was no longer able to speak. Instead, he raised a frail hand and reached out to one visitor—Marshal Ye Jianying, one of the country’s most venerated military figures. Clasping Ye’s hand, Mao’s lips moved faintly, and Ye later told his colleagues that Mao instructed him to back Hua as his designated heir.

Mao’s choice to single out Ye, as opposed to the other civilian elites who would survive him, was intentional. Hua had little experience in national politics or with the military brass. When Hua’s enemies came for him, Ye and those with similar military credentials would have to decide whether to stand by him or abandon him. The head of the Chinese military was, as the sociologist Ezra Vogel has observed, the CCP’s de facto “kingmaker.”

Ye initially stood by Hua during the first assault on his leadership, which was launched immediately after Mao’s death by Mao’s wife and three radical compatriots known as the Gang of Four. With the support of Ye and other top military leaders, People’s Liberation Army troops arrested the gang. This ensured that Hua would hold on to power, but only as long as the PLA supported him. Just two years later, when Deng orchestrated a second challenge to Hua’s leadership, Ye and other military commanders sided with Deng, who had extensive social connections and personal rapport with senior military officers.


When Deng needed to bolster the standing of his chosen successors, for instance, he appointed his close ally Admiral Liu Huaqing, the father of the Chinese navy, to the Politburo Standing Committee—an unusually high promotion for a military officer that has not since been replicated.
It is tempting to think that China is so fundamentally different today that the military’s latent role in succession is the artifact of a bygone era. In reality, the military remains pivotal in China’s elite politics, and control over it will remain a key asset for future political leaders. The military does not pick leaders on its own—Xi was reportedly chosen because he beat Li Keqiang in a straw poll of current and retired civilian and military leaders—but military backing can make a leader immune to civilian challenges. Hu Jintao, for example, was considered politically weak in part because his career trajectory offered comparatively few opportunities to build personal connections to the military. When Hu entered office, he had no ties to the members inside China’s apex military organization, the Central Military Commission. In contrast, through what was likely a combination of fortuitous assignments and savvy politicking, Xi started with ties to four out of ten CMC members—a leg up that gave him the latitude to start a wide-ranging purge of rival elites and reorder the military brass. For personalist leaders such as Xi and Mao, continuous purges ensure that no rival power centers emerge and that the military stays loyal. Xi’s recent reshuffling of the CMC and the PLA shows that Xi is continuing to play this old game.
Historically, Chinese strongmen have cycled through multiple successors before making their final selection. Mao, for instance, picked Liu Shaoqi and Lin Biao as his potential heirs before casting them aside. He selected Hua only when his health was unmistakably failing. Once secure in his position, Deng followed a similar path, removing two presumed successors, CCP General Secretaries Hu Yaobang and Zhao Ziyang, before settling on Jiang Zemin.


The 1989 student-led protest movement, for instance, which led to violent repression at Tiananmen Square, began as a response to the sudden death of Hu Yaobang, the liberal leader who had been Deng’s most likely successor until Deng and other party elders removed him from his post as party secretary for being too lenient in response to an earlier wave of student protests. Hu’s death—a heart attack during a meeting of the Politburo—galvanized protesters partly because students saw a more liberal future for China slipping from their grasp. Student protesters pushing Chinese political leaders to adopt liberal reforms found tacit support from Deng’s second heir apparent, Zhao Ziyang, until Deng pushed him aside and placed him under house arrest. Jiang Zemin quietly arrived in Beijing in the middle of the protests to succeed Zhao, in part because party elites saw Jiang as someone who was ideologically palatable to all sides but a hard-liner on repressing protest.
In China, the game of political succession plays out behind the high red walls of CCP headquarters at Zhongnanhai, making it difficult for outside observers to know what to look for and what to expect. The lack of public information about CCP politics also means that while Xi is in power, he will be subjected to regular rumors that he is in political trouble. This summer, for example, word circulated that Xi is on the verge of being pushed out of office, allegedly elbowed aside by his predecessor, Hu Jintao, and his military chief, Zhang Youxia. Such rumors about Xi’s premature political demise can usually be safely discounted. The odds that China’s top leader will be removed from office are not zero, but they are exceedingly small. Yet even if these rumors are not true, they are telling; indeed, they are products of a system of government in which the dynamics of leadership succession will play an increasingly urgent role.

This time around, however, the party’s elders may sit the process out. At 82 years old, former General Secretary Hu Jintao is thought to be in poor health; in his most recent public appearance during the 2022 party conclave, he seemed to be confused as he was led off stage in a humiliating scene. Other surviving party elders are also unlikely to intervene; some, such as former premier Wen Jiabao, may lack the stature, and others, such as the retired premier, Zhu Rongji, are well past 90 years old.
If Xi dies without having picked a successor, there will be a scramble. According to the CCP constitution, the leader should be elected in a plenary session of the entire Central Committee, which has more than 200 members. Yet before this group convenes, a subset of party higher-ups, perhaps in consultation with retired leaders and military generals, would meet and essentially predetermine the outcome. A natural choice, should Xi die unexpectedly, might be Premier Li Qiang, who is 66. But there are no guarantees: a civilian with the backing of the military, security services, and enough of the Politburo could push him aside.

The best-case scenario might be for Xi to anoint a successor who is permitted to quietly build a base of power in Xi’s final years. Following the Tiananmen Square crackdown, Deng handed Jiang Zemin the formal posts of military and party chief in 1989 while Deng was aging but still vigorous. Jiang was a newcomer to both Beijing and elite politics when Deng handed him the reins. Jiang’s position, particularly his weak ties to the military, offered Deng continued leverage, and Deng used his final years to shepherd Jiang through his first years in power, insulating the novice leader from rivals while also pushing him firmly toward economic liberalism. By contrast, if Xi anoints a successor but refuses, or is unable, to allow him to build a power base, the next in line will be vulnerable to potentially chaotic leadership challenges after Xi dies—similar to what befell Hua Guofeng.

To follow the Deng model, Xi would need to select someone relatively young who can carry his agenda forward for years. He could first appoint his chosen successor to the position of head of the party secretariat, an important job that would familiarize him with the internal workings of the Politburo. And eventually, Xi may even make this person a vice chairman of the Central Military Commission to give him some experience with military affairs and the power to rule. The goal is likely for the successor to be ready to assume the top job when he is in his late 50s or early 60s.

Strikingly, none of the current members of the seven-man Politburo Standing Committee fit this profile. Li Qiang will be in his late 60s in 2027 and in his 70s in 2032, significantly older than recent party leaders when they took office. Cai Qi holds the critical position as head of the party secretariat, a steppingstone to the top job, but he is only a couple of years younger than Xi. Ding Xuexiang will be 65 in 2027, which makes him a more plausible choice, but he has never governed a province or municipality, a likely prerequisite to ensure the successor is a competent administrator. The remaining three men—Li Xi, Wang Huning, and Zhao Leji—are also too old to be likely contenders.

The larger Politburo offers some more candidates, but each comes with a big asterisk by his name. Chen Jining is the party secretary of Shanghai, a job that both Xi and Jiang held—and, at 61, one of the youngest members of the Politburo. But Chen is not a sitting member of the Standing Committee, and Xi would probably want to elevate him a few years before he took over so he could learn the ropes. (Xi was elevated to the Standing Committee five years before he became CCP general secretary.) By the time Chen was ready, he would be older than Jiang, Hu, and Xi were when they took office.

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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by Dilbu »

A "Secret" Xi Jinping Letter Was Key To Improved India-China Ties: Report
New Delhi: When US President Donald Trump intensified his trade war with China earlier this year, Beijing began an outreach to India with a private letter from President Xi Jinping to President Droupadi Murmu, a Bloomberg report claims.

According to the report, which cited an unnamed Indian official as its source, Xi's letter was intended as a test of India's willingness to recalibrate ties with China. Although the letter was sent to President Murmu, the message was swiftly conveyed to Prime Minister Narendra Modi. In the note, President Xi expressed concern about any prospective US-India agreements that might harm Beijing's interests, the report claimed. The Chinese premier also named "a provincial official who would steer Beijing's efforts," the report stated.


It further added that PM Modi's government began taking the Chinese outreach seriously in June, amid its own talks with the United States over Trump's tariff threats and his claim that it was he who brokered a ceasefire between India and Pakistan following the sharp regional escalation over the Pahalgam terrorist attack in Jammu and Kashmir in which 26 people were killed.

Stung by Trump's tariffs, both India and China agreed to accelerate efforts to move beyond the 2020 border clash, pledging to renew talks over the long-standing boundary disputes, the report states.
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by Vayutuvan »

In the note, President Xi expressed concern about any prospective US-India agreements that might harm Beijing's interests, the report claimed.
That sounds like a threat by XI.
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by ricky_v »

A very interesting and unusual meeting by pm modi in tianjin recently, lost in midst with meeting with other big wigs, that may have gone unnoticed

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/wh ... ngNewsVerp
However, Modi's meeting with Cai Qi has garnered more attention than his bilateral summit with the Chinese President because Qi is one of the seven members of the CCP Politburo Standing Committee-- China's most powerful decision-making body-- who rarely meets foreign leaders, and usually works behind the scenes.


Cai Qi, the current first-ranked member of the Secretariat of the CCP, and the fifth-ranking member of the powerful seven-member CCP Politburo Standing Committee, serves as the director of the CCP General Office, essentially making the de facto chief of staff to CCP General Secretary Xi Jinping, who also serves as the President of China.

While Qi's official role as the director of the CCP General Office is generally not visible, it is indeed extremely important as his office plays a vital role in shaping the country's foreign policy.


The CCP General Office is considered the party's central command, tasked with disseminating decisions made by the Politburo Standing Committee, managing the leader's schedule, overseeing paperwork, and most importantly, ensuring that Xi Jinping's instructions are implemented across all ministries and provinces.

Cai Qi, as the director of the General Office, and one of the seven members of the Politburo, wields considerable influence in China's policy making, and could play a key role in building closer ties with India.

Additionally, Qi is considered a trusted close-aide of Xi Jinping, as both leaders have closely worked together in Fujian and Zhejiang. Cai Qi has also served as the CCP's Beijing chief, and oversaw the 2022 Winter Olympics. Qi's close ties with Xi means he has the power to influence the China President to improve relations with any country, including India.
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by ramana »

Up
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by ramana »

We need to bring back focus and study the new generation of leaders rising in China.
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by ricky_v »

^https://www.foreignaffairs.com/podcasts ... ture-china

theres a recent podcast on this topic, 50 minutes long, i will wait for the transcript that will get released in a couple of days
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by ricky_v »

alright the transcripts posted so we are back in business

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/podcasts ... ture-china
And there have been very few, if any, untroubled successions in the history of the [People’s Republic of China]. So if you think about Mao [Zedong] for example—Mao first designated Liu Shaoqi as his successor, and then ended up ousting Liu Shaoqi in the 1960s in the course of the Cultural Revolution, he died. Then Lin Biao effectively becomes his successor; Lin Biao also perishes in this kind of mysterious plane crash as he's attempting to flee China after—in this case probably it's his son is trying to organize a coup, it's this very Byzantine, complicated process. And then Mao finally designates a successor, Hua Guofeng, who's only able to hold onto power for a couple of years. He's then kind of pushed aside by Deng Xiaoping, who then, Deng Xiaoping cycles through a bunch of successors. So you can sort of go on and on through the set of Chinese leaders, as we do in the beginning of the piece, and it's a problem for all of these leaders—settling on a successor and having that successor actually take power is quite tricky.
I would say that Xi Jinping—not because he has learned or not learned—actually faces a more acute set of challenges in handing over power because of the extent to which he has successfully consolidated power since taking over from Hu Jintao. And essentially the reason behind that claim is that there was a period of what you might refer to as “collective leadership” in which the balance of power amongst elites within the CCP was much more even than it was certainly under Mao Zedong and even Deng Xiaoping. Which in some ways makes the process of transitioning power between individuals more smooth. You could debate that point, but I think that's probably true. But Xi's consolidation of power essentially means that only he is going to be making most of these critical choices.
the relevant bit
Yeah, I think there's a question of, you know, [if] Xi Jinping had some health issue or something and had to step down suddenly, what would happen immediately? If you look at the Standing Committee, I think there are really a couple of potential people to look at. Neither of them, by the way, especially young either. One is the sitting premier, the number two, Li Qiang, who would presumably take over for Xi Jinping if we just kind of look down at who in the official party roster is number two. There's a lot of people who think, though, that Cai Qi, who is another Standing Committee member who is arguably closer to Xi Jinping, head of the Secretariat, is actually somebody who maybe wields more power behind the scenes and could take over for Xi Jinping. But neither of these men is young enough to take over for Xi Jinping in a typical succession scenario for the party, which for the last couple of leaders has involved designating a leader who is in his early 60s by the time that he takes over. Both of these men are too old to take on that role.


A potential successor in the broader Politburo is Chen Jining. Chen Jining is the party secretary of Shanghai, which by the way is the role that Xi Jinping had when he joined the Politburo. It was also the role that Jiang Zemin had when he joined the Politburo, so there's a history of party leaders from Shanghai going on to become the top leader. And Chen Jining, who is currently 61, is young enough to potentially take over in if Xi Jinping handed over, handed power, or if Xi Jinping was willing to sort of go against the recent norms that the leaders start the position in his early 60s. You could even imagine Chen Jining taking over potentially in 2032.

Yeah that was China's last major military operation. So there's one interpretation of the reasons why Deng Xiaoping entered this conflict in Vietnam, [which] was that it was at least partly to do with domestic politics and elite politics. So the conflict that China fought in Vietnam, the lead up to that was at the end of 1978. And the end of 1978 was also the period in which Deng Xiaoping is trying to push aside Hua Guofeng. Sorry, Hua Guofeng again is Mao's successor, this kind of relatively weak leader who comes in after Mao. Hua Guofeng at least initially has the backing of the PLA, who helped Hua Guofeng oust the Gang of Four in essentially an internal palace coup. They arrest the members of the Gang of Four, then Hua Guofeng gets to take over as party chairman.

Hua Guofeng is there for a couple years, but Deng Xiaoping, who has much more prestige and influence in the PLA, starts to gradually accumulate more power. Mao called Deng Xiaoping a “needle wrapped in cotton“ because he was such a powerhouse of a man. Even though he was actually quite short in stature, he was large in prestige and influence. And he was this hero of the revolution, the political commissar of the Second Field Army. So he's starting to pry power away from Hua Guofeng at the end of 1978, this critical moment during a party plenum where Deng basically starts to take over as the de facto leader of the party.

As a side note, I'll just say—Deng never becomes the party chairman, he never becomes the party general secretary, he never is the premier or president of China. He holds but one key post and that is chairman of the Central Military Commission, which should tell you something about where power resides in the Chinese system. And that is the post through which he exercises the role of paramount leader in the 1980s.

And so in the spirit of 1978, in the lead up, there's one interpretation—I mean there's some national security reasons why China might want to go into Vietnam. But there's also a set of political reasons for Deng to want to go into Vietnam. Deng wants to push aside Hua Guofeng and show that actually he, Deng Xiaoping, has control of the military and can make the military dance when he tells them to dance. The actual conflict happens at the beginning of 1979, but in the lead up to it is when Deng is starting to consolidate power, or really push aside Hua Guofeng. And he enters this conflict in Vietnam, partly against the objection of some of the PLA and the civilian leadership, who see this as a risky gambit that is not worth it. In some ways, it's proven to be true; it's not a huge battlefield success. China sort of declares it successful, but really I think most people would say—and Tyler, you can jump in here—that this was not a huge success for the PLA. It was effectively something close to a loss. But one of the reasons the party entered, arguably, is that it benefited Deng in this period of leadership transition to show that, “Hey, the PLA is going to follow my orders over the objections of others.“ Could you imagine a similar dynamic at work in other potential future conflict scenarios, whether that's in the South China Sea or across the Taiwan Strait, is a question that we're trying to raise in this piece.
I mean you have He Weidong, the vice chairman of the Central Military Commission; Miao Hua, a member of the Central Military Commission; you have two ministers of defense who've been taken down in these purges. And I mean it's pretty remarkable to see this happen. It is something that we really haven't seen, maybe since the Deng era, or you could even reach back to the Mao era maybe, depending on how you define how wide-ranging this is. And so I think there are a couple things here that I think might make me, I suppose, less pessimistic in the short run about any kind of Taiwan contingency, and make me think that maybe there are reasons that Xi Jinping wouldn't, in the short run, trust his military.

The first is if you think about these purges, I think there's probably two dynamics at work. I think one is probably ongoing corruption. If you think about—there was a set of purges in the [PLA] Rocket Force that happened. I think there might have been a number of things here, but I think probably one of the more plausible explanations for this is corruption in procurement and the lack of readiness in the Rocket Force. Maybe also, again, as a result of corruption or incompetence that made Xi Jinping dissatisfied with the Rocket Force.

When it comes to some of these other purges, particularly, I mean, I think the most intriguing ones are Miao Hua and He Weidong being taken off the Central Military Commission. These are people who are tied to Xi Jinping. They both knew Xi Jinping almost certainly in Fujian [Province] and Zhejiang [Province] when Xi Jinping was a local leader. They were group army leaders at the time. And so I think there are a couple of things at work. And I mean both of them really are related to elite politics and succession. We don't know what happened with them, but I think there's two explanations that I think are the most plausible. The first is that I think there's some evidence that Miao Hua was trying to empire-build within the PLA and kind of create a Miao Hua faction. And maybe he thought this was okay because maybe he thought a Miao Hua faction is also a Xi Jinping faction. But it does seem to be the case that people who served under Miao Hua were being promoted at higher rates than other people. I think that's suggestive that he was kind of trying to empire-build in a way that Xi Jinping might not have liked. One, because it probably degrades military readiness. Two, because factionalism in the PLA is maybe also bad for elite politics. But if you're Xi Jinping looking at somebody like Miao Hua who maybe was engaging in this sort of behavior, you have to maybe doubt some of the competence of the people that he has promoted as a member of the Central Military Commission.
The Standing Committee is stocked with people who are close to Xi Jinping's age, in their late 60s, in some cases into their 70s. But the—and the larger Politburo has some people who are a bit younger who—Chen Jining is the Party Secretary of Shanghai who is sometimes, sort of, people suggest he could be a potential successor. But he's also, as one of the younger people on the Standing Committee, he is himself also not that young, he's 61. So if you imagine that Xi Jinping is going to hand over power in 2027 to somebody like Chen Jining, okay, maybe. By the time you get to 2032, he's going to be certainly older than has been the norm in party succession. It's this sort of funny dynamic where there's nobody who’s the clear person waiting in the wings if you think it's going to be 2032. And if you think it's going to be 2027, Xi Jinping hasn't taken any of the steps to identify and cultivate a successor. He hasn't elevated someone like Chen Jining to the Standing Committee, or given him a post like head of the party secretariat, which is kind of what Xi Jinping did as an apprentice leader which helps him understand the internal workings of the party. He hasn't elevated anybody to be vice chairman of the Central Military Commission—all these things that might indicate that someone like this is a potential successor. So it's a real puzzle what the plan is and if there's any plan.



I think Xi Jinping is also taking a page from his former now incarcerated political rival Bo Xilai, who was part of the succession mess of 2012 when Xi Jinping took power. I do think that as Xi Jinping picks a successor, if the past is any guide, I would think that he's going to want to pick a successor whose political vision is closer to his own. And the trick with that is that it's hard to know—once you have relinquished power or once you “go to meet Marx,” as they say, will the successor actually follow through on this? And this partly explains a lot of the dynamics of cycling through successors of Mao, and also arguably Deng Xiaoping. Mao was never satisfied with Liu Shaoqi. He just thought Liu Shaoqi was too conservative and not radical enough. Deng cycled through two successors, both of whom he felt like were not basically hard line enough on politics; he felt like they were too liberal, too accommodating to student protestors, so he pushed aside two successors for that reason. Xi Jinping hasn't done that because he hasn't identified or cultivated potential successors, but I wouldn't be surprised if he wants to try to pick somebody who is close to him ideologically.

thats the end of the podcast, now google searches for the boy wonder chen jining throws up a couple of articles, all pointing to his imminent succession, posting one

https://felixonline.co.uk/articles/chen ... successor/
Among the frontrunners is Chen Jining, now Party Secretary of Shanghai and member of the CCP's politburo. Studying his undergraduate and master's in civil and environmental engineering at the elite Tsinghua University, Chen began doctoral studies at Imperial in 1989, graduating with a PhD in civil engineering in 1993. He stayed for his postdoctoral studies and as a researcher until 1997.

Returning to China in 1998, Chen spent the next 17 years at Tsinghua University, rising through the ranks of the Department of Environmental Engineering, before joining the executive body of Tsinghua as Vice President in 2006. In 2012 Chen became the President until his appointment as Minister of Environmental Protection in January 2015. Following his stint as minister, he was appointed as acting mayor of Beijing in 2017 until 2022, where he was promoted to Party Secretary in Shanghai.
And just to kind of close off an earlier line of conversation, too, every time this has happened there has—I mean each of the succession battles have involved some drama. The last one in 2012 was in some ways the smoothest succession. The Deng succession was frustrated by, in 1989 he gradually hands off power. Jiang Zemin's handing off power to Hu Jintao, Jiang kind of kneecaps Hu Jintao by not giving him the post of military leader, only gradually relinquishing that role. But then last time was the Bo Xilai incident, which as listeners will probably remember, was this extremely lurid tale of a Politburo member's wife committing murder. Bo Xilai then tries to cover it up. The police chief of the jurisdiction that Bo Xilai is governing flees to the American consulate and everything unravels. So it’s definitely, you know—past successions have been high drama.
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by ramana »

China 4th Plenum is underway. Follow the headlines here
https://mktnews.com/index.html
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

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ricky, I don't think Chen Jining will succeed. He is too westernized for China.
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

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I think XI Jinping is on the way out. He'll probably be reduced to a figurehead before the successor is decided.

Zhang Youxia has successfully removed the main XI loyalists from the CMC

https://www.andrewerickson.com/2025/10/ ... ary-party/


1. General He Weidong, Member, Political Bureau, CCP Central Committee & [Second] Vice Chairman, CMC

2. Admiral Miao Hua, CMC Member & former Director, CMC Political Work Department [Click here for CMSI report.]

3. General He Hongjun, former Executive Deputy Director, CMC Political Work Department

4. General Wang Xiubin, former Executive Deputy Director, CMC Joint Operations Command Center

5. General Lin Xiangyang, former Commander, Eastern Theater Command

6. General Qin Shutong, former Political Commissar, PLA Army

7. Admiral Yuan Huazhi, former Political Commissar, PLA Navy [Click here for CMSI report.]

8. General/Former Vice Admiral Wang Houbin, former Commander, PLA Rocket Force

9. General Wang Chunning, former Commander, People’s Armed Police Force

Official announcement



On the afternoon of October 17, Senior Colonel Zhang Xiaogang, spokesperson for the Ministry of National Defense, released information regarding recent military-related issues.
Zhang Xiaogang: Since the 18th National Congress of the Communist Party of China, the entire army and armed police force have resolutely implemented the decisions and directives of the Party Central Committee and the Central Military Commission, adhering to the principles of no forbidden zones, full coverage, and zero tolerance, cracking down on corruption with a strong crackdown. The military’s anti-corruption campaign has continued to advance in depth. With the approval of the Party Central Committee and the Central Military Commission, the Central Military Commission’s Commission for Discipline Inspection and Supervision has launched investigations into nine individuals: He Weidong, member of the Political Bureau of the CCP Central Committee and Vice Chairman of the CCP Central Military Commission; Miao Hua, member of the CCP Central Military Commission and former Director of the Political Work Department of the CCP Central Military Commission; He Hongjun, former Executive Deputy Director of the Political Work Department of the CCP Central Military Commission; Wang Xiubin, former Executive Deputy Director of the Joint Operations Command Center of the CCP Central Committee; Lin Xiangyang, former Commander of the Eastern Theater Command; Qin Shutong, former Political Commissar of the Army; Yuan Huazhi, former Political Commissar of the Navy; Wang Houbin, former Commander of the Rocket Force; and Wang Chunning, former Commander of the People’s Armed Police Force. The investigation revealed that these nine individuals seriously violated Party discipline and were suspected of serious duty-related crimes involving an extremely large amount of money, of an extremely serious nature, and with extremely detrimental consequences. In accordance with relevant Party regulations and laws, the Party Central Committee has decided to expel these individuals from the Party and transfer the suspected crimes to military procuratorates for review and prosecution in accordance with law. Among them, eight Central Committee members—He Weidong, Miao Hua, He Hongjun, Wang Xiubin, Lin Xiangyang, Qin Shutong, Yuan Huazhi, and Wang Chunning—were expelled from the Party, with the decision to be ratified at a plenary session of the Central Committee. The Central Military Commission had previously decided to expel the aforementioned nine individuals from the military. The severe investigation and punishment of He Weidong, Miao Hua, He Hongjun, and others once again demonstrates the Party Central Committee and the Central Military Commission’s unwavering resolve to persevere in the fight against corruption, underscoring their clear commitment to leaving no place for corrupt elements to hide in the military. This represents a significant achievement in the Party and military’s anti-corruption campaign, further strengthening the purity and cohesion of the People’s Army and its combat effectiveness.
See also https://www.visiontimes.com/2025/10/05/ ... ijing.html
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

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ramana wrote: 20 Oct 2025 09:56 ricky, I don't think Chen Jining will succeed. He is too westernized for China.
Agree. Also, he's not senior enough.

All the rumors currently are about Wang Yang and Hu Chunhua. Both were pushed out by Xi but have now returned to prominence.

There are also claims that Wang Yang is already handling official duties. Hu Jintao and Zhang Youxia are pulling the strings.

https://jamestown.org/program/pla-purge ... is-rivals/
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

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Off the two, Hu Chunwa will be good for China.
Wang Yang is old dog.
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by gakakkad »

Honestly hope 11 remains there for as long as possible. He has done some incredible damage to China from inside. May he live another 50 years .
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by Vayutuvan »

RaviB wrote: 20 Oct 2025 15:54 I think XI Jinping is on the way out. He'll probably be reduced to a figurehead before the successor is decided.

Zhang Youxia has successfully removed the main XI loyalists from the CMC
One question. Are the people who have been removed really corrupt or they are on the wrong side of the faction which is becoming more powerful? If they are Xi loyalists, then most of the charges are either cooked up or brought out now to show Xi that he is losing his grip.
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by ramana »

ramana wrote: 20 Oct 2025 23:12 Off the two, Hu Chunwa will be good for China.
Wang Yang is old dog.
YouTube video on Hu Chunwa!


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YL--uU6SRyA
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by Hriday »

gakakkad wrote: 21 Oct 2025 02:37 Honestly hope 11 remains there for as long as possible. He has done some incredible damage to China from inside. May he live another 50 years .
gakakkad ji, if possible can you please give a short description of the damages done by Xi to China or some suggestions of reading material ? It will be very helpful for the readers of this forum. Chinese fudging of economic growth, corruption, building ghost cities that lay unused, hostility to neighbours etc are there even before Xi. Xi may have escalated in Galvan but is intelligent enough to realise that retaliation against India will invite much more damage and put a quick stop to it. What else he did against China?
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by RaviB »

Vayutuvan wrote: 21 Oct 2025 03:46
RaviB wrote: 20 Oct 2025 15:54 I think XI Jinping is on the way out. He'll probably be reduced to a figurehead before the successor is decided.

Zhang Youxia has successfully removed the main XI loyalists from the CMC
One question. Are the people who have been removed really corrupt or they are on the wrong side of the faction which is becoming more powerful? If they are Xi loyalists, then most of the charges are either cooked up or brought out now to show Xi that he is losing his grip.
Everyone in China is corrupt.

10% of contract value is the standard in China ( personal experience). On top of this, bribes for promotions are standard in PLA.

There are two ways of getting punished for corruption:

1. You steal way more than the usual, to the extent it harms the PLA. Like, filling missiles with water instead of fuel. Also, if you do not share and take more than what you're entitled to.

2. You lose protection from whoever your connection in the CCP was or the PLA Political Commissar. This could be because they got purged. Alternatively, you get investigated to get at your protector.

Even Xi's family has incredible wealth stashed abroad.

So corruption isn't the real reason but the Political power play is what got these guys kicked out. They were all personally hand- picked and promoted by Xi. So it's not as if he suddenly discovered they were corrupt but that somebody managed to get them purged.

I think XI will stay as the figure head for now. His formal removal might be kept as a chip for responding to internal unrest or because he needs to be sacrificed. Or he'll slowly be pushed to the background and retired
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by Hriday »

RaviB had recently posted from Jennifer Zeng blogspot. Journalist Levina also quoted her. So I think she is credible. Jennifer had 257K followers. From recent posts by her in X, some excepts
https://x.com/jenniferzeng97/status/198 ... ut8mg&s=19
Exclusive Scoop: Xi Jinping's Movement Restricted, CCP Elders' Two Plans, New CMC Roster Emerges.
...
According to the revelation by Chinese YouTuber Tang Jingyuan, Xi Jinping has already been restricted in his freedom of movement, and his family has also been implicated. The loss of his power has already become a settled fact, but how the next step will proceed depends on whether he cooperates. There are two plans.

🅰️ If he cooperates, they may adopt the Hua Guofeng model (See my preview show on what is Hua Guofeng model in the commnets), allowing him to retire with dignity, and it is even possible that he will not officially retire until the 21st Party Congress.

🅱️ If he does not cooperate, he may be forced to step down.
...
Yao Cheng also said that Xi Jinping and Zhang Youxia will retire simultaneously at the 21st Party Congress, and both sides will be able to retire safely and peacefully.
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

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One more from Jennifer,
https://x.com/jenniferzeng97/status/197 ... yeg9w&s=19
I was way ahead of official news again. And “rumors” turned out to be true again!

Seven months after I first broke the news of He Weidong’s arrest, today the CCP finally announced it!

Big Breaking PLA News! 9 Top Flag & General Officers Investigated & Expelled from Party & Military:
...
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by Anoop »

https://open.substack.com/pub/sinocism/ ... dium=email

Forever Xi Jinping? Perhaps Not
He may put saving the regime from itself above vainglory, and even recovering Taiwan - Guest post by Chris Johnson

This a guest post from Chris Johnson, CEO of China Strategies Group and a former top China analyst at the CIA. Chris helps provide context for the recent round of PLA purges, and for what we may see at the now underway Fourth Plenum in terms of politics and personnel- Bill

With the world’s attention riveted on the on-again, off-again trade war between the United States and China, it can be easy to forget that Chinese President Xi Jinping, just like his American counterpart, Donald Trump, has domestic preoccupations that are far more front of mind for him than the ongoing trade spat. In fact, Xi this week is presiding over the Fourth Plenum of the 20th Central Committee, which will be an important milestone in this Central Committee’s political calendar. When the Politburo held its typical month end meeting in September, it announced the timing for the Plenum and said its agenda would be focused on approving the draft of the 15th Five-Year Plan, the Chinese Communist Party’s (CCP) strategic economic guidance blueprint for the period 2026-2030. Judging solely from the few teasers the government has released via central media, that document is sure to have profound implications for both China’s domestic development and for its trading relationships with the United States and many other countries.

Lost in all that noise, however, is that plenums are, first and foremost, political affairs, and the Fourth Plenum is shaping up to be no different. At a minimum, the expanding purge of the high command of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), China’s military, seems primed to impact the conclave. The Chinese Defense Ministry’s announcement just days before the Plenum’s opening that nine senior PLA officers were expelled from the CCP and from the military makes that clear. Eight of those officers are members of the Central Committee, two of them are members of the CCP Central Military Commission (CMC)—China’s highest military policymaking body—and one of them is a member of the ruling Politburo. It is safe to assume that most, if not all, of those vacancies will be on the Plenum’s agenda.

Even on the civilian side of the Politburo ledger, there are issues to potentially resolve. The very unusual portfolio swap in April between members Li Ganjie and Shi Taifeng largely appears resolved, with both officials stabilizing in their new roles, but there is no doubt the move was odd. Similarly, their Politburo colleague, Ma Xingrui, abruptly departed as Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region CCP secretary in July. Official media said he would receive another post, but that has yet to materialize, at least publicly.

The Fourth Plenum may not deal further with those particular Politburo deck chairs, but it could take other actions. Given the relatively static elite politics of Xi Jinping’s now thirteen-year tenure, it is easy to forget that it was not always so. In fact, in the three decades that preceded Xi’s elevation to top leader, the Fourth Plenums of the 14th, 15th, and 16th Central Committees made important leadership changes to either the Politburo and its Secretariat or to the CMC.

Moreover, in two cases, fifth plenums witnessed significant changes to top CCP bodies that have strong parallels to today’s leadership configuration. At the Fifth Plenum of the 14th Central Committee in 1995, for example, the CMC was adjusted to add two new uniformed vice chairmen given the two incumbent vice chairs already were very advanced in age by that point and therefore would obviously retire at the next party congress. The same could be said now for CMC Vice Chairman (CMCVC) Zhang Youxia, who arguably already was extended beyond his expiration date at the 20th Party Congress and who will be 77 by the convening of the next one. The downfall of Zhang’s fellow CMCVC and Politburo member He Weidong, who himself would potentially have been due to age out in 2027, makes the need to signal Zhang’s successor even more urgent. And, we must not forget that Xi’s own ascension to CMCVC occurred at the Fifth Plenum of the 17th Central Committee.

That walk down memory lane is intriguing in a more big picture sense, too. As in those earlier periods, we have reached just beyond the halfway point in the 20th Central Committee’s lifespan. As such, the minds of CCP elites, as well as the regime’s foreign observers, are beginning to fixate on the 21st Party Congress in 2027 and its attendant reshuffling of the top leadership. That, of course, raises the question of whether Xi Jinping will embark on a fourth term then and, if he does, whether he will start to give some indication of his plans for the succession.

The conventional wisdom says Xi will rule for life. His chitchat with Russian President Vladimir Putin on a hot mic at last month’s military parade in Beijing calling septuagenarians like them children and referencing living to 150 obviously did little to challenge that conviction. And yet, there is a certain schizophrenia in the commentariat’s discussion of Xi and the succession. For example, his silence on a handover strategy was declared a looming crisis back in 2021, but China watchers still axiomatically claim he wants another term in 2027 with no transition plan in mind.

Unless Xi is a pure narcissist, however, that level of alarm seems unmerited. Like his overegged “bromance” with Putin, it partly derives from foreign hyperbole about Xi as another Mao or Stalin, two proper megalomaniacs. Analysts frequently suggest he is mirroring their smothering personality cults and capricious purges, making dying in office a next logical homage. Never mind that Xi follows smooth policy lines while theirs veered sharply. He is calculating where they were whimsical. His leadership philosophy was forged by tumult and disgrace when theirs took shape in triumph—and the list of dissimilarities goes on and on.

The “forever Xi” crowd also claims he ditched the practice of fixed decadelong tenures for the top leader out of personal ambition, but he—and initially the CCP barons who gave him power—instead viewed it as a regime-threatening crisis. The previous succession playbook offered certain benefits like a modest level of predictability and a false veneer of institutionalization. For Xi, though, the cost in Leninist accounting was too high. Without a strongman at the top to discipline it, the Party’s cohesion dissolved in the acid of rampant corruption. Worse, the regime’s hard power stalwarts, the military and security services, were borderline independent kingdoms jealous of their power and of uncertain reliability in a crisis. In short, what took twenty years to metastasize could not disappear in ten, as Xi’s expanding purges of his high command show.

Against that backdrop, the latest convulsions atop the PLA are of the utmost import. It is an iron law of CCP politics that a leader cannot make it to—to say nothing of staying—top leader without demonstrating an ability to at least work with, and preferably to control, that institution. It therefore is a critical player in any succession drama, as it demonstrated very clearly after Mao’s death with the arrest of his Cultural Revolution henchmen, the Gang of Four, and, in a subtler way, following the 1989 Tiananmen crackdown.

Some of the analysis of the current cycle of purges, which started in roughly mid-2023, says the ongoing chaos is an indicator of Xi’s lack of control over his generals. Other observers claim this is an intramural contest amongst rival senior officer factions behind the high walls of the PLA, casting Xi as merely a passive observer. In this framing, the PLA remains a mostly hermetically sealed kingdom where Xi, just like his immediate predecessors, gains access through careful bargaining and dolling out steady funding for the military’s parochial goals and the continued buildout of China’s already demonstrably lethal military capabilities. According to this view, the broadening of the purge shows Xi’s reputation as the most powerful leader of the PLA, and therefore of China, since Deng Xiaoping—and perhaps even Mao—is unwarranted. It is no surprise, then, that this camp judges Xi must remain in power for the long haul to continue his tectonic struggle with the mighty high command.

But this approach fails to give Xi the credit he is due. The civil-military dynamic it describes was accurate before he arrived, with the PLA occupying an expansive gray zone where it traded on its monopolies on certain forms of intelligence and military expertise to advance its perquisites. Xi disrupted that high command comfort zone early on with his “shock and awe” campaign combining a withering anticorruption drive with a comprehensive reordering of the PLA’s command structure. In both those spaces, Xi’s two immediate predecessors made fleeting efforts but failed to move the dial. Of course, Xi is fallible. He can get surprised, as seemed to be the case with the PLA spy balloon that drifted into mainland US airspace in 2023, but he has put the military in a much tighter box than it was in before he arrived.

In addition, even the supposedly formidable Deng struggled mightily to rally his fellow revolutionary-credentialed generals to undertake the Tiananmen crackdown and, in its aftermath, tried and failed to push through force restructuring. In his subsequent high command purge at the 14th Party Congress in 1992, he granted one of its victims a Politburo seat, if a hollow one, as a consolation prize to keep the peace within the elite. Xi may benefit from contending with a thinner political gene pool of senior officers, but He Weidong’s expulsion from the CCP makes clear he is doing no such favors. His removal of half the sitting CMC and the first active CMCVC since 1967 likewise is a display of raw power impossible to ignore and which catapults him beyond Deng.

Similarly, the idea that the ongoing purge—and even further tweaks to the force restructuring—are signs of Xi’s weak grip on the military do not hold water. Rome was not built in a day, and Xi is contending with monumental challenges that would vex even the most adept political operator. As noted above, the PLA also was not the only regime power player Xi deemed out of control when he arrived as party boss. The civilian security and intelligence services were their own corruption morass that required tending, probably prompting Xi, at least publicly, to pause his PLA reckoning for a few years while he brought that important constituency more under his personal control.

Moreover, the notion of rival senior PLA clans purging each other willy nilly while Xi looks on is equally wanting. If we acknowledge the PLA is no longer the freewheeling enterprise it was before Xi showed up, the old framework of searching for large networks under a single or a few leaders also should be revisited. In the case of the nine latest purge victims, for example, some of them have career ties to the PLA’s old 31st Group Army, which was rebranded the 73rd Group Army in Xi’s restructuring. He Weidong and his ousted colleague, former CMC member Miao Hua, also hail from the 31st Group Army, so the presumption is they were conspiring with each other and with those other officers in a larger cabal. But, at least so far, there is no public evidence linking the cases of He and Miao, nor can we be sure the clean out of officers who share career ties with them is anything more than, to borrow the Chinese aphorism, “cutting the grass and eliminating the roots” (斩草除根).

In that sense, Xi’s clear preference for maintaining an aura of infallibility, indefatigability, and unflappability makes the task of uncovering the truth all the more daunting. It seems unlikely, for example, that he would ever roll out a fulsome explanation of the purge in the almost theatrical style of Mao, with a catchy moniker like “the Lin Biao Antiparty Clique.” What we clearly can see is that Xi has spent much of his time in power railing against the formation of factions in the Party and the PLA. His actions have matched his words in breaking up powerful constituencies in the civilian leadership, so there is little reason to doubt he has worked hard to repeat that approach within the top ranks of the PLA.

Consequently, if the latest purge is really an indication of senior officers running amok, and not of Xi’s own doing, he is in a very weak position. The generals can be either untouchable, chastened, or, most likely, somewhere in between, but they cannot be—and are not—everything, everywhere, all at once. In short, the old solders are gone, and Xi, in his patient and methodical style, is proving very capable of managing their descendants. And, if Xi is contemplating a glide path toward stepping back, what better way to forestall any murmurings of weakness than by taking down a wide swath of the kingmaking PLA’s high command.

The same analyses of the military purges have drawn through lines to Xi’s confidence in his commanders to fight wars, most notably against Taiwan (and, presumably, the United States). In fact, informed observers frequently say Xi must stay in office to pursue his legacy obsession of reunifying with the island. Their main evidence is that he would start his fourth term the same year, 2027, he has mandated that the PLA be at least notionally up to the task. With a military wracked by corruption and of unproven combat effectiveness, however, Xi knows he might be gambling the regime with a Taiwan assault. Moving aside at some point to engineer a new and improved smooth handover may therefore seem a less risky way to earn his legacy chops.

There also is plenty of evidence Xi dwells on other preoccupations as much, if not more, than Taiwan. In that vein, handwringing about the succession confuses Xi’s caginess on the matter with a refusal to even contemplate it. But his public ideological oeuvre and private preoccupations suggest otherwise. Fancying himself a man of history, Xi fixates on the philosophically weighty matters “great men” do. With the party celebrating its centenary, and Xi readying for his norm-smashing third term, he was poised for such deep reflections in 2021.

Right on cue, central media announced Xi’s new remedy to the dynastic rise and fall that plagued China’s emperors for centuries. Xi’s answer, “self-revolution,” says the regime can autocorrect. A keen student of CCP history, he knows its succession track record desperately needs such a volte face. It is entirely conceivable, then, that his personal “self-revolution” checklist might include crafting a succession plan before circumstances—whether personal, internal, or external—force his hand.

Indeed, Xi’s fretting about China’s dynastic cycle mirrors his other nightmare scenario—repeating the implosion of the USSR. Chinese Communist thinkers long believed socialist polities were immune from the cycle given they had transcended its feudal dynasties and peasant uprisings. The failure of the Soviet experiment was a stark reminder that was not so.

Moreover, Xi privately has sermonized about the Soviet meltdown. Just after taking power, he told party insiders no one was “man enough” to stop Mikhail Gorbachev from disbanding the regime. But the bigger question is how such a “traitor” rose to the top to begin with. The answer, in part, is the Soviet leadership’s bungling of the succession. Instead of a rolling intergenerational handover, the Politburo wasted time handing the baton from one infirm septuagenarian to the next until desperation forced a fateful choice. Xi’s infatuation with the Soviet downfall presumably leaves him determined to avoid their mistake.

And yet, one must acknowledge that, even at senior levels of the leadership, Xi has shown signs of mimicking that failure. Zhang Youxia is not the only Politburo member Xi retained beyond the notional retirement age at the last party congress. Top diplomat Wang Yi stayed on too, and Xi kept yet another—though former—Politburo member, Chen Xi, in charge of the CCP’s top grooming ground for party cadre, the Central Party School. The latter retention is even more striking given that post used to be handed to the heir apparent under the previous loose succession protocol.

Similarly, Xi has loaded up his most trusted associates with numerous titles which previously would have been more dispersed. His principal lieutenant, Cai Qi, is the best example, serving simultaneously on the Politburo’s seven-man Standing Committee, chief secretary of that body’s executive arm, the Secretariat, and director of the CCP General Office, the Party’s day-to-day never center. Although those trends are not encouraging, it still is possible Xi could craft a novel solution that might better balance the internal tensions for him between staving off the dynastic curse for at least a bit longer and sticking with personnel comfort food.

In the end, of course, we are left to guess what Xi will do. The black box of Chinese elite politics is even more opaque under him. One thing is certain, however; searching for obsolete succession cueing is a dead end. In the old pattern, for example, the designated heir served as the sitting leader’s apprentice for five years. But Xi spent that time watching his feckless predecessor fiddle while the party burned, invalidating the practice for him. Demolishing such patterns then became his political signature as paramount leader, so his handover approach surely will follow suit.

In fact, Xi’s latest disruptive maneuver may offer a clue to his succession strategy. The Central Committee, as the CCP’s nominal top decisionmaking body, holds seven plenums during one of its typical five-year lifespans. For unknown reasons, Xi withheld this round’s third session until last year. That leaves the Fourth Plenum occurring when a usual cycle would be convening its fifth. This time, therefore, he could combine the agendas of the standard fourth (party affairs and ideology) and fifth (adopting the new five-year plan) meetings into one “super plenum.” Failing that, he could retain a “spare plenum” to deploy anytime between now and 2027, as the CCP Constitution mandates the Central Committee meet at least annually but sets no other firm constraints. That gives Xi a fair amount of flexibility to decide when, if it at all, he wants to show his cards on the succession. The point is that Xi frequently is more creative—and might even prove more magnanimous—than his foreign students often give him credit for. [/quote]
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by ricky_v »

good posts above
ramana sir, i remember the last plenary, where out of the 7 names to be decided, 1 or 2 were already decided to return, including the ideologue wang hunning, and yet the strike rate for the western media was a grand total of 0 out of 5

i also remember the breathless reporting and kite-flying passed as analysis by article commentators from all the think tanks, and they were assured that they had considered all the combinations only to fall flat on their faces a couple of months later, so i am extremely cautious of the boy wonder above or any boy wonder for that matter that the western media puts forward as the heir apparent

speaking of, we are back to discussing little hu??, i remember writing about him, here goes

posting.php?mode=quote&p=2584213
ricky_v wrote: 26 Mar 2023 12:29
sir, allow me to meander while responding to the above point. when the congress convention was due, "every " china watcher had wildly different candidates who would make it to the politburo, that xjp was angling for a 3rd term was an open secret and everyone had enough time on their hands to forecast the way forward, at least in terms of personnel. The path to the congress was also intriguing, different names were thrown up for 5 effective positions (xjp and wang huning were mostly confirmed), and discussed, future princelings were sighted and future policies were plotted keeping in mind the newcomers; the end result: yes he undertook an overhaul and removed any clique holdover, his heir apparent is his former personal secretary, which not many saw coming, yes his name was also thrown in with the others, but never as the successor, but look at Hu Chunhua, the little hu, heir to the cyl and his mentor, big hu, Hu Jintao, some had placed him in the politburo, most others were certain he was the heir apparent to XJP, where is he now? punted into oblivion, vice-chairman of the chai-biskoot plenary cppcc. This episode to me showed that the main problem of dealing with china is the tyranny of language, we are basically dealing with third hand information.

The party publishes a ton of information, the western media picks up those bits of information which suit their narrative and publishes with its usual twist, the indian media picks up this twisted mess and applies their own narrative to it to arrive at something resembling news, an ironic case of chinese whispers, and we here have to decipher the position and meaning of these twisted chicken bones and arrive at auguries to forecast the future, i would argue that the method is not credible. The west and its vaunted vanguard, the free mainstream media press, has been pumping for a confrontation with the ccp for about 10 years now, but it has also been primed for conflicts with the russia for more than that, with afghanistan, syria, iraq, the list is long, we also know that xjp is a mindless dictator, but we also know that modi is a fascist/nazi, trump is a nazi, putler is literally voldemort and is also ailing and should have died at least 3 times now from life-threatening diseases, from the same sources, which of these are true? i do not have the temerity to answer.
hu chunhua was pumped to be the heir apparent, to be the one to be sent straight to the politburo, and learn the ropes as xjp had done with his mentor, hu jintao

reality is a little bit grimmer, he is currently one, yes, one of the vice chairpersons of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, he is not supreme, he shares roles and responsibilities with at least 20 other people, if my eyesight and wiki are correct

what are his general roles and responsibilities
The vice chairpersons of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC) are deputies to the chairman of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference. The official responsibility of the vice chairpersons is to assist the CPPCC chairman with the leadership of the CPPCC Standing Committee.[1]

The head of the United Front Work Department (UFWD) of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) has generally served as the first-ranking vice chairperson.[3] The other vice chairpersons have generally included the president of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, former chief executives of Hong Kong and Macau, director of the Hong Kong and Macao Affairs Office, president of the All-China Federation of Industry and Commerce, and at least one chairperson of one of the eight legally permitted political parties in China.
riveting, but i for one am off the hu chunhua hype train

the best way would be to reach the primary source directly, that remains a work in progress
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by A_Gupta »

What does knowing the answer in advance get one, as opposed to getting some popcorn and watching the show?
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by ricky_v »

^ thats a good question, A_Gupta sir, here's my stab at an answer, as the chinese polity is so opaque, discussing these names is more akin to betting at the races, but it is the principle of it, the horses discussed must be viable candidates for winning, it does one no good if due to faulty reporting we are discussing contestants of dog fights while thinking we are discussing horse races, now, that fast and loose analysis may fly at sm, but if we are taking the time to read lengthy pieces, contemporary chinese thoughts on polity and obscure names, then the payoff must be intellectually stimulating

of a slightly lesser import, i personally believe in the maxim that what comes before determines what comes after; as a corollary, if one is able to determine what comes after (the personnel in power), then one must have necessarily grasped the first principles of what came before (the chinese as a people, their history, as a society, and the workings of their prefectures and the myriad divisions of the chinese party). my ambition is limited only to understanding the same and providing whatever corpus of thought there is to be for easier grasp by the average indian

others? who can say? they may plan when to plan adventurism, when to desist, when to ally with china on the global stage to decry unjust policies, when to align with other powers to decry chinese unfairness, which areas to press and where to show lassitude for the greatest benefit possible to the indian people, and that only follows, to a refined degree at least, when one understands the goad of the chinese society
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by A_Gupta »

Testing one's understanding of China by predicting outcomes is a good exercise.
In terms of likely outcomes, is any of them more in India's favor than the others?
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by Anoop »

I think the CCP is unanimous in their attitude towards Ondia viz. India must be contained and relegated to a lower status vis-a-vis China. Where differences may arise is on their priorities vis-a-vis the US and Taiwan. In that respect, a US-China detente may be more harmful to India by way of less economic opportunities for both trade and investment.
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by A_Gupta »

I was thinking in terms of things like the difference in a parliamentary system of having an absolute majority versus having to form a coalition, if the coalition partners are prone to infighting, or not and so on. If a fractured CCP emerges from this plenary session with the victor having to worry about consolidating power internally, that might be better for India.

Or, China's economy needs certain remedies, and if power is captured by a faction that has the wrong remedies,..., etc.
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Re: Understanding New China After the 19th and 20th Congresses

Post by ricky_v »

a good place to start on the chinese parliamentary system would be the below highly informative paper
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... 1-2024.pdf


Image

The Party’s no. 2 official, Li Qiang, currently serves concurrently as Premier of the State Council, the
cabinet of the Central People’s Government, overseeing the government bureaucracy. The Party’s no. 6 official,
Ding Xuexiang, serves as executive Vice Premier.

The Party’s no. 3 official, Zhao Leji, currently heads the National People’s Congress (NPC), China’s unicameral legislature and, by protocol, China’s counterpart to the U.S. Congress. The NPC’s nearly 3,000 delegates represent 33 provincial-level
jurisdictions, plus, purportedly, “Taiwan compatriots,” and the PLA. A third of delegates are sitting Party and
government officials. The NPC’s powers include to enact and amend laws and approve the state budget and
national plans for economic and social development.

The Party’s no. 4 official, Wang Huning, heads the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC), a political advisory body that is central to the CPC’s claim to lead a system of “multiparty cooperation and political consultation.” The CPPCC also serves as a vehicle for the CPC’s efforts to win over every part of society to support the CPC’s goals, an exercise the CPC
calls building a “patriotic united front.” Wang also oversees policy on Hong Kong, Macao, and Taiwan.
the much discussed hu chunhua is one of the vice premiers of this above body, a political advisory body
The CPC’s no. 5 official, Cai Qi, heads the Party Secretariat. It manages the CPC Central Committee
bureaucracy, which includes six functional departments:

The Organization Department is the Party’s personnel agency, responsible for recruiting and training personnel and assigning them to positions across the party-state.

• The Publicity Department (or Propaganda Department) is responsible for the Party’s messaging and for guiding the media and ideological work.
• The United Front Work Department (UFWD) seeks to win support for the CPC from non-CPC groups at home and abroad, including intellectual, ethnic and religious communities, private business, and populations in Hong Kong, Macao, Taiwan, and globally, with a
focus on ethnic-Chinese diaspora communities.
• The Commission for Political and Legal Affairs is responsible for public security and “social stability.” It oversees the work of the Supreme People’s Court, the Supreme People’s Procuratorate, and the Ministries of Public Security, State Security, and Justice. The heads of all those institutions serve as commission members.
• The International Department (also known as the International Liaison Department) handles party-to party relations. It takes the lead on diplomacy with Cuba, Laos, North Korea, and Vietnam.
• The Social Work Department, created in 2023, seeks to strengthen Party control over community governance, social work, volunteer work, industry federations, chambers of commerce, and the handling of complaints from the public.

The Central Committee bureaucracy also includes the offices of high-profile commissions, some of which Xi upgraded from “leading small groups” that had previously operated in the shadows. They include a National Security
Commission and a Central Foreign Affairs Commission.
The Party’s no. 7 official, Li Xi, heads the Party’s Central Commission for Discipline Inspection (CCDI). Since 2012, the CCDI has investigated millions of CPC members for alleged violations of “discipline,” including corruption.
Through 2022, targets included 61 full and alternate Central Committee members and 18 of the CCDI’s own members.
Image
The State Council (Figure 2) is the government’s top institution, led by the premier. Below him are four vice premiers, all members of the CPC Politburo. Below them are state councilors; they do not sit on the Politburo, but are members of other senior Party bodies and the State Council’s own Party body. State councilor positions for foreign affairs and military affairs have been vacant since October 2023, when Xi Jinping abruptly removed their incumbents. The agencies that comprise the State Council are 21 government ministries, three ministerial-level commissions, the central bank, and the National Audit Office. Most of these agency leaders, but not all, are full members of the CPC Central Committee.
i would be more inclined to name ding xuexiang as the heir apparent for now
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