Vayusena & Nausena Rafale: News & Discussion

[Manish_P]

...
They have also tried to block sale of F16s and all sort of weapons as well

So have we.

Trying to stop the enemy from acquiring weapons, any weapons which can be used against you, is part of the fight.

[Rakesh]

Taiwan is getting all her F-16s upgraded to the Block 70 standard and acquiring new build variants as well. Long delays due to supply chain issues.

[Manish_Sharma]

Or are we negotiating hard with GE and US at the same time?

Better to negotiate for 36-54 f35 than mortgage your entire future and mainstay.

Move over AMCA, it will take longer(of course we can do it but it will take LONGER), the world over trend is to MAKE STRATEGIC PARTNERSHIP FOR NEXT GENERATION PLATFORMS (FCAS of france??) :

https://x.com/manojzxc/status/2013971175517655246?s=20
Here starts IAF starting MRFA 2.0 for FCAS :
ACM is indirectly demanding 100 B$ to join France FCAS program..what a disastrous person he is.
All his big talk about pvt industry is to establish an assembly line to assemble Rafale and, later use the assembly line for FCAS
https://x.com/manojzxc/status/2013975895422169461?s=20
French-Germany FCAS project is falling apart,since French refused to give any substantive work share to Germany,while using Germany as a milk cow to fund the FCAS program.
Now it's becoming clear y this ACM delayed AMCA wit pvt consortium idea &

WHILE other twitter poster interprets it as a move to Su-57 not french fcas:

https://x.com/Neetivaan/status/2013956560641552787?s=20
ACM AP Singh almost hints that Rafale will be inevitable.

While, he also says to catch up with the next generation (5th gen most probably) we need to join hands with someone.

Man, if we go with Su-57, this will be the biggest L for us because we already moved on from FGFA.

although looking at IAF's penchant for french platforms probably its going to be FCAS of france.

90 F4 Rafale + 24 F5 Rafale (with Neuron UCAVs??)
& then FCAS to follow...

so future probably is
GoI decided to add 97 Tejas Mk1A to previous order of 83 Tejas..
both current air chief A.P. Singh & former air chief Bhaduria openly came in media REQUESTING GoI to move the order of these 97 Tejas Mk1A orders to Tejas Mk2 instead (which will have 1st flight sometime 2027), although a month before air chief A.P. Singh was demanding 'give me 40 to 50 fighter jets every year..we need them urgently' but the moment GoI turns decisive 'jaldi kya hai? postpone these 97 order to later (2032) Tejas Mk2'

what is preventing future air force leadership to repeat same for Tejas Mk2 REQUESTING GoI to move those orders to AMCA instead (as internal payload carrying jets will be more common by then)?

I remember when GoI ordered 165 LCH, a few articles appeared in media about how 'age of COMBAT HELICOPTERs is over', but complete silence when apaches ordered & same is true for most swadeshi platforms

Google ai answer on:

is approval of ccs pending since november 2025 with regard to rspa ghatak ucav?

As of January 2026, the
Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) approval for the full-scale development and prototype funding of the RSPA Ghatak UCAV remains pending.
Current status and key factors regarding the approval include:

Financial Sanction Awaited: The program is currently awaiting a final sanction of approximately ₹5,000 crore from the government to transition into the prototype assembly and flight testing phases.
Engine-linked Approval: A significant procedural hurdle for CCS clearance is the certification of the indigenous Dry Kaveri engine. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has set a firm deadline of 2026 for this certification. Experts indicate that financial commitment from the CCS is interlinked with the successful validation of this engine.
Ongoing Progress: Despite the pending funding, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) have moved beyond conceptual design. They are proactively developing an engineering model to validate critical systems and have already frozen the configuration.
Revised Timelines: Due to the delays in funding and government clearance, the rollout of the first full-scale prototype is now anticipated by 2028-2029, with maiden flight testing projected for late 2030 or 2031.

seems Rafale acquision is just the stepping stone, in depth we're moving towards Rafale-Neuron-FCAS mfrg

while media beats drums on every AoN (which are later buried) as if swadeshi is acquired.

[Kartik]

The Chinese are not stupid to underestimate the Rafale. In fact they have been blocking Taiwan's purchase of Rafale as Eric Trappier recently alluded to. It's only Indians who have a fetish for blaming the IAF for wanting a jet whose capabilities they fully know and appreciate.

They have also tried to block sale of F16s and all sort of weapons as well

F-16 sales went ahead. 66 F-16 Block 70 & 139 F-16 A/B being upgraded to F-16V standard. But Rafale is a more capable fighter and China will put immense political pressure on France to not proceed with it.

[Kartik]

Tejas Mk2 hasn't even seen a prototype rollout yet and you're acting like it's on the verge of entering production. There's a full phase of ground testing, flight testing, weapons testing, climate testing, etc. for it to go through with thousands of test points and well over 1500-1600 test flights at the very minimum to get it ready for induction.

This announcement has nothing to do with the Tejas Mk2. It will be ordered when it's time comes. Right now the focus has to be on Rafale otherwise the IAF will be reduced to even lower than 29 squadrons when the oldest Jags start retiring.

Deliveries of Rafale will happen from 2030 onward only while MK2 will enter by 2029.

You really believe that Tejas Mk2 will "enter service" by 2029?? Even HAL isn't parading such a ridiculous date.

We would be lucky if it manages it's first flight in 2026 given HAL's track record. With thousands of test points the test flight program will last 4-5 years, on a very optimistic note. Nearly every system is upgraded over the Tejas Mk1A. From new software, for e.g. for sensor fusion, which is just one functionality, to upgraded FCS to cater to the new control surfaces to new ECS, new braking systems, new landing gear, new radar, new IRST, LAD, new pylons, you name it. I'm very hopeful that the flight test experience with Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A will lead to optimized flight testing, but even then it's going to take at the very least 1600-1800 flights. That too when the 5 prototypes are going to be added at the rate of 1 per 6 months or so.

Even if concurrent production begins, you won't see Tejas Mk2 enter squadron service anytime before 2033-34. Any earlier date given is just not going to happen.

[pravula]

Exactly. Has anyone seen a GSQR for Mk2? IAF will demand underwater torpedo firing and moon base testing. What will HAL do then?

[BenG]

Well, this forum turned pro Rafale fairly quickly. I understand HAL has royally screwed up Tejas mk1a. But that is no reason to blow shit load of money on imports again. I would say if necessary buy 36+1 more Rafale off the shelf and 40 more super Su-30 mki capable of firing brahmos mk2/Tarus etc. Here is a summary of a discussion with an AI about Su-30 mki TOT vs proposed Rafale production deal.

The Su-30MKI programme was decisively better for India than the Rafale / MRFA proposal.

Below is a structured, no-nonsense comparison focused only on sovereignty and industrial depth.

Moderator Note: Tweet has been removed due to non-compliance of forum rules (i.e. not providing a link).

[Sumeet]

For a fighter jet we primarily need:

1. Airframe & Aerodynamics & RF/IR signature optimization
2. Flight control system
3. Engine and Engine Control system
4. Radar
5. Mission Software (including Multi sensor data fusion software, AI/ML based solutions for health monitoring, diagnostics, combat strategies)
6. New Computers — FADEC, Digital Flight Control Computers, Mission Computer, Display Processor, Digital Signal Processors
7. Rest of avionics -- Glass cockpit, HMDS, IRST, EoT, EW Suite, CNI systems
8. Weapons -- Brahmos A, ASRAAM, Astra Mk2, Astra SFDR, Meteor NG, SPICE 1K/2K, Garuthma, SAAW, Gaurav & Rudram

Where we stand today:

1, 2 ----> LCA, Mk2 & AMCA is helping us indigenize better. We don't need any help here. R&D should focus on stealth optimizations across spectrums.
3 ---> Our biggest archilles heel till date. Indo-French (Safran) or Indo-UK (Rolls Royce) Joint Venture should help us address this in ~ 7-10 years
4 ---> Ensure both DRDO & private companies like Data Patterns get enough funding to develop next gen Radars. If any help is required consult Israelis.
5 ---> We need to deliver on Tejas Mk2 & Super Sukhoi projects to develop state of the art skills in this area for AMCA and any 6th gen projects. We should be able to do this ourselves.
6 ---> We should be able to do this ourselves totally. Funding should be made available non stop for public and private companies.
7 ---> We can seek selective collaboration with Israel and then over time indigenize to 100%. Again Mk2 & Super Sukhoi programs will provide foundation in these aspects.
8 ---> Mostly we are self sufficient here and we should continue investing in next gen weapons on our own.

More Rafale will help us:
1) Catch up in squadron strength & remaining relevant in our threat scenarios
2) Keep state of the art integrated weapon system in IAF
3) High operational availability

Super Sukhoi and Tejas Mk2:
1) Catch up in squadron strength & keeping them all relevant in our threat scenarios
2) Best place to integrate new indigenous weapons
3) Critical R&D and Engineering Foundation to build future 5th gen and 6th gen fighters


This is why we need all of these three projects. Money shouldn't be an issue -- Govt should understand to be respected you must also be feared. So open up purses without any petty cheap tricks or taking pride in we did something is less than a hollywood movie project.

Whatever mistakes happened in past don't matter now. That time is gone. We should be future focussed.

[uddu]

Indian weapons on Rafale | Astra, Rudram & SAAW | A Perfect Marriage

[BenG]

If we rejected Gripen, then we should say no to 114 Rafale as well. If IAF needs 114 Rafale now, they will need 36 Su-57 before the ink on 114 rafale deal dries or they will open another competition piting GCAP, SU-57 and FCAS for 140 odd fighters again to replace Su-30 and we will repeat this tamasha again and again.

Brazil’s deal with Saab for Gripen E/F is widely considered the gold standard for sovereignty within Western systems.

Moderator Note: Tweet has been removed due to non-compliance of forum rules (i.e. not providing a link).

[Rakesh]

If we rejected Gripen, then we should say no to 114 Rafale as well. If IAF needs 114 Rafale now, they will need 36 Su-57 before the ink on 114 rafale deal dries or they will open another competition piting GCAP, SU-57 and FCAS for 140 odd fighters again to replace Su-30 and we will repeat this tamasha again and again.

Brazil’s deal with Saab for Gripen E/F is widely considered the gold standard for sovereignty within Western systems.

Can you please provide the link for the Twitter post? Thank You for your co-operation in this matter.

One of the key takeaways from the 114 MRFA acquisition is a fighter with a non-American engine. The Gripen will not work due to the F414G turbofan built by GE. This is to spread the risk, rather than having your all your future fleet (Tejas Mk1A, Tejas Mk2 + 114 MRFA) powered by US-built turbofans. That is 180 Tejas Mk1A + 200 (potentially) Tejas Mk2 + 114 MRFAs = 494 aircraft. That is a significant chunk of airpower. So spread the risk.

If risk was not a concern, then instead of Gripen E/F, the F-15EX rules the roost among all the MRFA contestants and will prevail even over the Rafale. That is a beast, but she is American.

P.S. And then there is the first AMCA Mk1A squadrons (40 aircraft @ minimum) which was also supposed to have F414-INS6 turbofans. Although the last I heard the plan was changed to have only the TD and PV vehicles to have the F414-INS6 turbofans and production examples will all have the indigenious turbofan from the JV between GTRE and the chosen foreign engine OEM.

[uddu]

Gripen is full of imported components from all over the world. Gripen should not be talked about by a country like India. Today We are comparing Tejas Mk2 and Rafale. You can talk about Poland and Russia in Kerala, but not Gripen in BR.

Gripen still Relies on U.S. Engine But Sweden Offers it to Portugal as F-35 Alternative
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/gripen_s ... 14155.html
12 April 2025

https://x.com/arunpudur/status/1994027706011308222?s=20
@arunpudur
Made in Sweden Gripen Vs Made in India Tejas. Be proud of how Atma Nirbhar we have become since 2014.

[Rakesh]

@arunpudur
Made in Sweden Gripen Vs Made in India Tejas. Be proud of how Atma Nirbhar we have become since 2014.

Please provide link to tweet. Thank You for your co-operation in this matter.

[BenG]

A 2nd factor involves shared integration source codes, allowing Brazil’s growing arms industry to quickly add the weapons they’re developing for use by the FAB – or indeed, for any Gripen customer. Brazilian Gripens offered immediate integration with the cooperative A-Darter air-air missile that Brazil is developing with fellow Gripen customer South Africa, and deploying on its own modernized A-1M AMX fighters. Mectron’s MAR-1 anti-radiation missile is another example that will debut with Brazil’s Gripen NGs.

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/br ... ram-04179/

[uddu]

A 2nd factor involves shared integration source codes, allowing Brazil’s growing arms industry to quickly add the weapons they’re developing for use by the FAB – or indeed, for any Gripen customer. Brazilian Gripens offered immediate integration with the cooperative A-Darter air-air missile that Brazil is developing with fellow Gripen customer South Africa, and deploying on its own modernized A-1M AMX fighters. Mectron’s MAR-1 anti-radiation missile is another example that will debut with Brazil’s Gripen NGs.

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/br ... hatgpt.com

Gripen is our MK1A level fighter. It's outdated by our requirements. Also the number of components including the engines that we will be struck with makes it unsuited for our needs. We have crossed the Gripen time long back. Now it's the Rafale/Su-57 that can compete with MK2/AMCA. It may be good fighter for others who don't' have anything of their own, not for us.

[Rakesh]

And as the F-35 program has proved, not a single foreign F-35 can take to the sky without sustainment from Unkil's MIC. This is the *INTENDED* meaning of interoperability...albeit American style.

The Finnish president refers to F-18s and not F-35s. That makes it even worse!

VIDEO: https://x.com/mog_russEN/status/2014005 ... 10070?s=20 ---> JUST IN: Finnish President Alexander Stubb: "We can’t even use our F-35 fighter jets without America’s permission."

[Rakesh]

A 2nd factor involves shared integration source codes, allowing Brazil’s growing arms industry to quickly add the weapons they’re developing for use by the FAB – or indeed, for any Gripen customer. Brazilian Gripens offered immediate integration with the cooperative A-Darter air-air missile that Brazil is developing with fellow Gripen customer South Africa, and deploying on its own modernized A-1M AMX fighters. Mectron’s MAR-1 anti-radiation missile is another example that will debut with Brazil’s Gripen NGs.

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/br ... ram-04179/

A moot point due to the F414G turbofan in the Gripen E/F.

[BenG]

Moot point is a nation desperate to import 114 fighters to maintain numerical parity with pakistan at a cost unimaginable couple of years back. Yet India chest thumps that it has mastered every aspect of aviation technology except the engine. The fact is India still sucks in development, manufacturing and assembly scaling up. But sweden does not. Tejas mk1a needs more time let alone mk2 and AMCA. Its would have been prudent to just keep producing Su-30 mki with increased level of Engine indegenisation till AMCA was reaady. Its not like the americans can sanction russian engines and ground IAF. But buying the rafale is like draining our aerospace capital to french factories voluntarily which has a stated policy of not sharing industrial know-how.

[Rakesh]

Moot point is a nation desperate to import 114 fighters to maintain numerical parity with pakistan at a cost unimaginable couple of years back. Yet India chest thumps that it has mastered every aspect of aviation technology except the engine. The fact is India still sucks in development, manufacturing and assembly scaling up. But sweden does not. Tejas mk1a needs more time let alone mk2 and AMCA. Its would have been prudent to just keep producing Su-30 mki with increased level of Engine indegenisation till AMCA was reaady. Its not like the americans can sanction russian engines and ground IAF. But buying the rafale is like draining our aerospace capital to french factories voluntarily which has a stated policy of not sharing industrial know-how.

I remember you parroting this same line in the past on BRF as well. It went nowhere and will continue to go nowhere. Gripen will not come. It is amazing how people come out of the wood works, once the 114 MRFA deal is close to completion. Anybody but the French is the mantra!

I had asked you to provide the Twitter link in your post about the Gripen. You did not. I have thus removed that tweet. You are more than welcome to put that tweet back in again, but with the link.

[Rakesh]

seems Rafale acquision is just the stepping stone, in depth we're moving towards Rafale-Neuron-FCAS mfrg

FCAS is vaporware at this moment. Infighting among the Euro partners (mainly between France and Germany).

FCAS was supposed to arrive in the mid 2030s and was pushed back to the 2050s. And even that timeframe is in doubt.

[Rakesh]

India’s Mega Rafale Deal Explained | 114 Jets, Tejas Delays & China Threat

India may be on the verge of signing the biggest defence deal in its history — a proposed ₹3.25 lakh crore ($35 billion) agreement for 114 Rafale fighter jets. But with India already producing the LCA Tejas, why does the Indian Air Force need such a massive import? In this episode of Defence Deep Dive, senior defence journalist Sandeep Unnithan explains the strategic, numerical, and geopolitical reasons behind India’s Rafale decision.

[Rakesh]

Why India Picked French Rafale Over US’ 5th Generation F-35 & Russian Su-57 Fighter Jets

In the latest episode of Point Blank, Hindustan Times Executive Editor Shishir Gupta explains why India has chosen France’s Rafale as its next major fighter jet acquisition. Remember, the Defence Procurement Board recently cleared a proposal worth ₹3.25 lakh crore for 114 Rafale multi-role combat aircraft, with 25% of the deal set to be implemented in India under the “Make in India” framework. The episode decodes how France’s Rafale, considered a 4.5-generation aircraft and combat-proven, offers reliability without geopolitical strings. Watch this video for all the details.

[S_Madhukar]

A 2nd factor involves shared integration source codes, allowing Brazil’s growing arms industry to quickly add the weapons they’re developing for use by the FAB – or indeed, for any Gripen customer. Brazilian Gripens offered immediate integration with the cooperative A-Darter air-air missile that Brazil is developing with fellow Gripen customer South Africa, and deploying on its own modernized A-1M AMX fighters. Mectron’s MAR-1 anti-radiation missile is another example that will debut with Brazil’s Gripen NGs.

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/br ... ram-04179/

Bro you are late…Your ancestors were on the forum before ..please come back during AMCA trials

[Rakesh]

Bro you are late…Your ancestors were on the forum before ..please come back during AMCA trials

[Cain Marko]

India’s Mega Rafale Deal Explained | 114 Jets, Tejas Delays & China Threat[/size][/u]

India may be on the verge of signing the biggest defence deal in its history — a proposed ₹3.25 lakh crore ($35 billion) agreement for 114 Rafale fighter jets. But with India already producing the LCA Tejas, why does the Indian Air Force need such a massive import? In this episode of Defence Deep Dive, senior defence journalist Sandeep Unnithan explains the strategic, numerical, and geopolitical reasons behind India’s Rafale decision.

Damn bro. Which kambhakht got his hands on the sound effects for this show...jeez..

[Rakesh]

Rafale saga: 25 yrs of detours, deadlocks & political hesitation. Now IAF getting what it always wanted
https://theprint.in/defence/rafale-saga ... d/2832149/
21 Jan 2026

Instead of buying more Mirages outright in early 2000s, the requirement was tweaked in favour of a medium-weight, multi-role fighter with Mirage-like performance.

'HAL is a long way from international standards': Air Marshal Diptendu Choudhury

As the Narendra Modi government sets the ball rolling for the procurement of more Rafale, ThePrint's Editor- Defence and Security Snehesh Alex Philip speaks to Air Marshal Diptendu Choudhury (R) on the project and what lies ahead.

[Rakesh]

Rafale 2.0 Loading: Is IAF’s 19-Year Fighter Jet Hunt Finally Ending?

It has been 19 years in the making. From the original MMRCA tender in 2007 to the emergency purchase in 2016, and now, finally MRFA, the "Mother of All Defence Deals" seems ready for ink. Reports suggest the Indian Air Force is in the final stages of acquiring 114 Rafale jets in a deal estimated at a staggering Rs 3.25 Lakh Crore (~$40 Billion). In this episode of In Our Defence, Dev Goswami sits down with national security expert Sandeep Unnithan to decode the deal. The two trace the origins of the Indian Air Force's hunt for a fighter jet to the post-Kargil years and look at the various stumbling blocks along the way that have kept the deal from taking off. The two also discuss just how dire the situation is for the Indian Air Force and why this reported deal to buy 114 Rafale jets is a "now or never" moment. Tune in!

[bala]

All his hoopla of acquiring more Videshi aircrafts by the IAF at more than $300 M a pop, may solve some interim problems based on threats that India faces. However, the fact that India is not investing enough in moving aircraft R&D to next levels is the more worrying aspect. The tejas line and the MK II will fill out the 3rd tier of aircrafts that are required for the IAF. But India has to move much ahead in indigenous capabilities. These are the ORCA/TEDBF line plus AMCA systems. If MOD babus don't sanction enough money for these projects then IAF will be forced to buy videshi maal for a long time. The engine saga is another which requires adequate funding to get a homemade engine for these crafts. India has to have simultaneous R&D projects that dabble in all kinds of new, leading edge tech stuff and try out concepts at 1/2 or 1/4 scale and using the learnings graduate to the full blown thing. This is where academia can be co-opted and young minds are challenged with difficult problems to solve.

The Indian Navy is way ahead in Atma Nirbharta, all ships are under its control, nuclear submarine, can't say the same for IAF on all aircrafts. The Indian army is a mixed bag, they inducted HAL Helos and artillery is on a strong footing. But things like tanks, armoured vehicles, small arms are still languishing. This business of collaboration with IITs/NITs/etc in R&D for the armed forces should be ramped up and formalized. We need to try all kinds of ideas and become leading edge. This laboratory of concepts that work must be translated to products appropriate for the armed forces.

[Rakesh]

Bala, I would be wary of calling the Navy "Self-Reliant". Once again - just like with Tejas - engines are our Achilles heel. If any nation listed below (Americans are the most likely right now!) decides to turn the tap off with regards to sustainment and spares, we are in a pickle.

Indian major surface combatants:
* Aircraft Carrier - Vikrant (American powerplant);
* Destroyers - Vizag, Kolkata, Delhi, Rajput Class (Ukrainian powerplant);
* Frigates - Nilgiri Class (American powerplant), Shivalik Class (French/German powerplant), Talwar Class (Ukrainian powerplant), Brahmaputra Class (Indian powerplant via BHEL);
* Corvettes - Kamorta, Kora, Khukri Class (French/German powerplant), Veer Class (Ukrainian powerplant)

Indian sub-surface combatants:
Russian (Kilo), French (Scorpene) and German (HDW 209). Indian torpedoes are just *BEGINNING* to trickle in and still has got ways to go. But the Kilos did get USHUS sonars during their upgrades. And batteries on the Kilo Class are also Indian in origin.

Indian Naval Air Arm:
* Fighter Aircraft - Russian (MiG-29K/KUB) and French (Rafale M/B)
* ASW Aircraft - American (P-8I) and European (Do 228 and C-295)
* ASW Helicopters - American (MH-60R), British (Sea King Mk42B) and Russian (Ka-28)
* AEW Helicopters - Russian (Ka-31)
* Utility Helicopters - American (SH-3 Sea King), British (Sea King Mk42C) and Indian (HAL Dhruv which has a French powerplant).
* UAVs - Israeli (Herons and Searchers).

Take a wild guess as to which Indian navy vessel is actually Atmanirbhar Bharat?

Arihant Class SSBN - everything from sonar to torpedoes to SLBMs (and everything else) is Indian. And why? Because no one will give you a SSBN. We had to master every nut & bolt, all by ourselves. While the Russians provided significant help on the reactor design (CLWR-B1), we figured out a lot of things on our own as well. And not much can be (or should be) said on an open forum, but the Arihant Class is damn good. As Indians, we should be proud.

You also have to give credit where credit is due. The Indian Naval Design Bureau is an amazing organization. The ability to marry Russian hulls with Western/Israeli/Indian hardware is nothing short of spectacular i.e. Brahmaputra Class and her immediate predecessor i.e. the Godavari Class. That formed the genesis of future classes of surface combatants. The men & women who work at the INDB are magicians. Hyperbole yes, but they are engineers par excellence and can stand toe to toe with anyone else in the world.

What India needs though is a program on engines (just like the Advanced Technology Vessel program - father of the Arihant Class or the IGMDP led by Dr Kalam) which is answerable only to the PMO and only whom the PMO has oversight;

1) Low bypass turbofans for fighter aircraft.
2) High bypass turbofans for transport aircraft.
3) Marine propulsion (gas/diesel turbines) for naval surface vessels & diesel engines for sub-surface vessels.
4) Gas / Diesel turbines for armoured vehicles i.e. heavy/medium/light tanks, infantry combat vehicles, etc.

If we can do the above, everything else will fall into place. Every platform has its genesis in an engine. Screw up the engine and the entire platform is at risk i.e. GE F404 and Tejas Mk1A. And we can do the above. We just do not want to. Our stakeholders want fresh halwa given to them on a silver plate.

[bala]

Good points!

However Admiral, the Navy has a good grasp on ships (design, weapons, capability, etc) compared to the IAF on aircrafts (no IAF design bureau exists). Engines are the achilles heel for India. As you rightly pointed out, we need a national engine program driven by a capable leader and as you say only answerable to PMO. The MOD babus are lucchabuddhi characters and don't appreciate progress that leapfrogs them. Once the aircraft engine comes into play then the marine version is an outcome of such effort. I think the Indian Navy tried to get an aircraft for carrier landing and they mastered the landing technique with the LCA Naval version. But again for reliability they want twin engines and hence TEDBF was actively pursued. Now it is HAL's turn to work with the Indian navy and provide the TEDBF version for the Indian Navy. Where are the MOD babus in funding such an endeavor? That is why I am advocating a 10x budget for R&D work in MOD and this can be pursued irrespective of the acquisitions budgets.

[Rakesh]

However Admiral, the Navy has a good grasp on ships (design, weapons, capability, etc) compared to the IAF on aircrafts (no IAF design bureau exists). Engines are the achilles heel for India. As you rightly pointed out, we need a national engine program driven by a capable leader and as you say only answerable to PMO. The MOD babus are lucchabuddhi characters and don't appreciate progress that leapfrogs them. Once the aircraft engine comes into play then the marine version is an outcome of such effort. I think the Indian Navy tried to get an aircraft for carrier landing and they mastered the landing technique with the LCA Naval version. But again for reliability they want twin engines and hence TEDBF was actively pursued. Now it is HAL's turn to work with the Indian navy and provide the TEDBF version for the Indian Navy. Where are the MOD babus in funding such an endeavor? That is why I am advocating a 10x budget for R&D work in MOD and this can be pursued irrespective of the acquisitions budgets.

Change the focus from TEDBF/ORCA/Tejas Mk2 and whatever else, to engine. So yes, aircraft are important...whether manned or unmanned (i.e. Ghatak UCAV). But we are focusing on the hole inside the doughnut, than the actual doughnut itself.

Every program (air, land or sea based) is suffering from engine delays.

* Tejas Mk1A: Delays from General Electric
* Tejas Mk2: Negotiations with General Electric still ongoing from 2022 for 99 turbofans
* HTT-40: Delays from Honeywell
* Dry Kaveri: waiting for time slot in Russia to send for testing
* Datran 1,500 hp for Arjun MBT: to be sent to UK for mechanical & combustion development testing
* Zorawar light tank: Original engine was from MTU. Had to switch to Cummins VTA903E-T760 engine, because the MTU engine could not be delivered due to German export control regimes. That is comedic because the Indian Navy will be signing a US $8 - 10 billion deal for six Type 212CD boats from Germany. The jokes write themselves!

The issues with Dry Kaveri and Datran are because of a lack of testing infrastructure within the country. If India has got $35+ billion to spend on 114 Rafales, then what stops us from setting up the required infrastructure in India? It is the lack of desire. It is not India's priority.

Easy solution = Import GE F404/F414.

Easy solution = Send engines abroad for testing.

No easy solution leads to Arihant Class SSBN.

No easy solution leads to India landing on the south pole of the moon. And the first nation in the entire world to do so.

If we develop TEDBF with GE F414, the program WILL FAIL. Same story with every other platform that has a foreign engine. If we want TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA/Tejas Mk2 in viable/sustainable numbers...then we need to get an engine program going. India needs her own engines for air, sea and land applications. And in order for that to happen, we need to set up the infrastructure in the country. In order to get the infrastructure in the country, you need to find excellent project managers who can layout the vision and secure the funds needed. To achieve that, you need a chief project manager whose answers only to the PMO.

We are importing 114 Rafales because we have no engine. That is the reality. Lack of source codes, Rafale not being VLO, only doing screwdrivergiri of Rafale in India, etc are *DISTRACTION* arguments.

[Cain Marko]

Rafale 2.0 Loading: Is IAF’s 19-Year Fighter Jet Hunt Finally Ending?

It has been 19 years in the making. From the original MMRCA tender in 2007 to the emergency purchase in 2016, and now, finally MRFA, the "Mother of All Defence Deals" seems ready for ink. Reports suggest the Indian Air Force is in the final stages of acquiring 114 Rafale jets in a deal estimated at a staggering Rs 3.25 Lakh Crore (~$40 Billion). In this episode of In Our Defence, Dev Goswami sits down...

Is it just me or sure that number just keep going up magically. First it was 30, then 35, now 40 billion. Mind is boggled.

[Rakesh]

Is it just me or sure that number just keep going up magically. First it was 30, then 35, now 40 billion. Mind is boggled.

I noticed the same thing. Designed to craft a "rage" narrative. Wait till the actual contract comes out, before commenting. Nobody involved in the negotiations is speaking to the media. So a lot of speculations are being made. And what better way to increase TRPs on your video, than to keep increasing the costs of the contract.

[Cain Marko]

I noticed the same thing. Designed to craft a "rage" narrative. Wait till the actual contract comes out, before commenting. Nobody involved in the negotiations is speaking to the media. So a lot of speculations are being made. And what better way to increase TRPs on your video, than to keep increasing the costs of the contract.

Who are they rage baiting?

[Rakesh]

Who are they rage baiting?

Sirjee, which island have you been vacationing at? I would like to go there

The amount of rona-dhona that has been going on X is a sight to behold. People are one step short of doing voodoo dance rituals on the GOI, over this contract. Watch the videos that I posted in the past two pages of this thread and even they comment on the uproar this deal has caused. A lot of vested interests at play over this contract that was first announced by ANI.

Folks arguing against Rafale are also advocating;

1) Import F-35 instead.
But what about source code access? Will it be cheaper than $35 billion?

2) F-15EX has a bigger radar.
Source code access? Will it be cheaper than $35 billion?

3) Order hundreds more of Tejas Mk2 instead of 114 Rafale.
With which engine? GE F414? Good luck!

4) Stock up on GE F404 turbofans for Tejas Mk1A.
How exactly are we going to do that? What is the game plan to stock up?

5) Rafale is not VLO and will not last a day against Chinese J-20s.
But Tejas Mk1A and Tejas Mk2 will be totally fine?

6) Rafales will arrive only in the early 2030s.
From contract signature to delivery is 3 years. So if a deal is signed in 2027, then delivery of the first batch will be in 2030.

7) AMCA is any day better than Rafale.
Engine from where? Oh wait, the 120kN engine from the JV between GTRE and a chosen foreign OEM?

And the arguments go on and on.

I am pro-Atmanirbhar Bharat and thus we need 114 F-35 and/or F-15EX instead of 114 Rafale.

Utter Comedy.

[uddu]

* Datran 1,500 hp for Arjun MBT: to be sent to UK for mechanical & combustion development testing

update on Datran
Integration commenced by mounting one of the subsystems, signalling the shift from laboratory testing to vehicle-level trials.
CVRDE Kicks Off DATRAN 1500 HP Powerpack Integration On Dec 4
https://www.indiandefensenews.in/2026/0 ... 00-hp.html

[Trikaal]

Nothing happens in this country unless we are in a crisis mode. Our missile program, space program, tejas, there's a sanction or crisis behind every success story. Even recently, all major economic reforms happened only after US started imposing tarrifs on us. So the best option is to double down and say- Tejas or bust, and see solutions magically pour in. Maybe funding pours into Kaveri as a national priority. Maybe Ghatak gets fast-tracked. Maybe we focus more on anti-stealth radars and SAMs. As a country of jugaad, we need crisis to come out of our complacency mode.

And not buying 114 Rafales won't actually trigger an insurmountable crisis. We effectively grounded Pak AF duing Op Sindoor without any of our jets really crossing the border. Chinese are unlikely to initiate a full blown war given their current focus on Taiwan, and that they are anyway happy with status quo in Ladakh. Moreover, they are limited in the amount of air power they can project from Tibetan plateau. Rafale anyway doesn't answer their ace J20/J35. The only real consequence of not buying Rafales is that we will be unable to take offensive actions, and be limited to fighting defensively for some time, which, as a dharmic nation, we anyway never undertake. So, there are very limited downsides to just roughing it out and focusing on indigenous solutions.

[ashthor]

ORCA will come after 114 is signed
Project 76 after 75i is signed
TEDBF after 26 is signed

ek haat de ke haat le

[pravula]

* Datran 1,500 hp for Arjun MBT: to be sent to UK for mechanical & combustion development testing

update on Datran
Integration commenced by mounting one of the subsystems, signalling the shift from laboratory testing to vehicle-level trials.
CVRDE Kicks Off DATRAN 1500 HP Powerpack Integration On Dec 4
https://www.indiandefensenews.in/2026/0 ... 00-hp.html

This is sad. No labs in India to test the engines? Most Auto manufacturing have one AFAIK

[drnayar]

...

Apparently the ISI is doing it's best to run the media narrative against Rafale. The F4 and F5 variants outclasses anything china can offer. The possible "6th gen" china tech will be a watered down version, due to security concerns vs US.