Understanding Islamic Society

[ramana]

Long ago I was on a trip from Hyd to B'Lore. On the way a very well off Tamil Muslim accompanied by his servant, boarded the train at some station. At the appointed hour he took a compass and used it to find direction of Mecca to pray. I was very young and pointed out that due to the train compartment being made of steel the compass might be wrong and he is better of relying on direction of sun rise. His servant told me the master is well versed and relies on the compass at all times.

[JE Menon]

Altair,

>>I have a question:If a Muslim lands on Mars or Moon(God forbid!), Which direction will he pray?

the answer should be obvious: in the direction of Mecca (sorry, couldn't resist) ... I wouldn't be surprised though if you actually got this answer from some of the chaps guiding the Muslim world now.

[Theo_Fidel]

The real answer would be to put a fatwa on the planet mars direct it to always face mecca. See problem solved....

[Prem]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_ezZQNsjRo
One thing I can't understand about this video. Why do they keep showing that bearded man? What is his role in the video?

The Darri Wala Droll stopper is to play Daal Me Kohrkoo and Pindliyon Ke Gooddhe Mey Haddi.

[RajeshA]

Oil Droplets & Child Nurturing in Islam

Posting some posts from the "Vested Interests in India for Giving In to Pak Blackmail" Thread

shiv

Islam has a few strengths:

1. singularity of historical anchor (Muhammad), geographical anchor (Kaaba) and ideological anchor (Qu'ran)
2. formal egalitarianism resulting in a strong planet-wide brotherhood viz-a-viz the non-believers
3. preservation of tribal structures and genealogical lines within the brotherhood
4. cellular organization serving the virtual ideological framework
5. aggressive protection of its ideological integrity
6. aggressive expansion of religion's domain - demographically, geographically and over mind-space
7. competitive domination over the non-believers as a mark of religious fervor
8. common security against the non-believers at every level
9. zero compromise on claims
10. zero adherence to treaties with non-believers, only tactical compromises
11. use of lying as a tactical tool to make advances
12. unrepentant taking of advantage of other's weaknesses and benefits provided by others
13. context-dependent flexibility in politics
14. harnessing of mankind's primeval instincts in the cause of religion

Physical, emotional and legal control of women is another speciality in Islam protected by zero compromise'

I am now going to say something that might upset many people - especially "modern" humans who have been brought up to see men and women as equal.

No. I am not saying men and women should not be equal. I am saying that there are personality differences between men and women that make it easy for men to physically and emotionally control women. The number of examples one could give might fill a book, but a simple example is if a woman is offered the choice of suppressing her freedom or having her child punished, she will accept the suppression of freedom. This treatment is necessary only for the woman who is brought from outside, stolen/kidnapped/enslaved. The child is brought up in the cloistered confines of an oil droplet - always structured as women and children physically restricted inside oil droplet and behaviour controlled by men and at least one preacher. Once that child has learned the language and absorbed the beliefs, he too will know that he is a Muslim male with rights over women and kafirs and the resources of this world and everyone else is wrong. The girl child will know her duties and will know the punishment meted out to women who do not comply. If the mother is already a believer then no problem. She will stay on a leash and bring up kids exactly as demanded.

No secular academic is going to get funding to study Islamic society. 5000 universities in the US and not a single "Sociology and psychology of Islam" course. People will continuously come up with secular explanations for Tamerlanes and other jihadis. That is an error that needs to be addressed before anything serious can happen to reduce the scourge of terrorism from Islamic sources being explained away as freedom fight or reaction to persecution.

RajeshA

Physical, emotional and legal control of women is another speciality in Islam protected by zero compromise'

I am now going to say something that might upset many people - especially "modern" humans who have been brought up to see men and women as equal.

shiv saar,

This control over the women is a feature of Islam, but why do you think it gives Islam any strength?

Usually in traditional societies regardless of religion, women's role has been

• to give birth to the next generation,
• to inculcate the child with the initial values of the culture and
• to look after the household.

The level of dignity to the woman and the level of inclusion in decision-making viz-a-viz family affairs may differ from society to society, from culture to culture, but the responsibilities listed above usually remain.

So how does the control over the women in Islam contribute anything more than this to Islam's strength?

I am asking because I too would like to understand this better.

shiv

Usually in traditional societies regardless of religion, women's role has been

• to give birth to the next generation,
• to inculcate the child with the initial values of the culture and
• to look after the household.

Additional requirements for women in Islam - over and above that in non Islamic societies

• 4. To avoid all contact with all men other than father, brothers, husband and sons. Even eye contact
  5. To avoid being seen outside with anyone other than the above first degree relatives
  6. To avoid exposure of most parts of the body other than hands, feet and face/eyes to anyone other than the men mentioned above. Even hair, wrists and ankles are not to be exposed
  7. To expect severe punishment for breaking the above rules

What this pans out to in practice is that women are confined to the home and exposed ONLY to other women or first degree men. That ensures that all their sons are in a controlled environment for the first 4 to 5 formative years of their lives. No outsiders. No threats. Only relatives and mullah and call to prayer 5 times a day.

During these formative years the son has great security because he is never far away from mum. It is a time of comfort. And during this time he is taught that he is a privileged person as a male Muslim, and that Allah has given him the right over the world and righteousness over and above all kafirs. He also learns that men can ask women to do something and their needs must be met. He is head honcho as a Muslim male.

This is the sort of child who gets exposed to the kafir world as he grows. The control of women ensures that the first 5 years of childhood are controlled better in Islam than most other societies.

In many non Islamic societies boys stay with mother till age five. But in no other society are they taught that they are superior to women and superior to followers of all other religions. The superiority of men over women is visible at home. This forms the first layer of knowledge" written into a child's mind, and it is written at a time when the child ALWAYS has a mother or other woman looking after his needs and security. It can happen only by control of women as rigidly as happens in Islam stopping them from going out most times and keeping them physically present at home with toddler son/s. This is a type of enslavement/jailing that is unique to Islam. In no other society is it so rigidly imposed. And it is imposed to ensure the second point you made

to inculcate the child with the initial values of the culture and

The Islamic values of superiority of Muslims over others and men over women and that the earth was made by Allah for Muslims are inculcated in an environment that totally excludes all else.

This is what creates the aggressive male who has a feeling of entitlement to everything, a sense of grievance that Islam is being opposed when he does not get it, and the man who dominates women and considers kafir women as objects that should be violated at will. The insecurity that comes from facing the outside world in later life makes the man yearn for the security of his childhood - surrounded by pious Muslims, all dressed properly and behaving properly Islamic - a time when he was very secure. Islam has done social engineering to a degree that academics now do not know and will not investigate because it would be unsecular

RajeshA

shiv saar,

thanks for the insightful post.

So the strength seems to be

- nurturing of the male child into an egotistical personality convinced of his privilege, entitlement and superiority. These personality characterics are first developed in relation to the other gender, and then cultivated further into a general attitude towards the non-believers.

shiv

Yes that nurturing can be achieved only by control of the "natural" person whom the child will bond with and listen to in the first 4-5 years of life - momma. That is why the control of women and the "oil droplet" (mosque centered) structure of community are both critical to propagating the memes.

Oil droplets can be made to survive as a suspension in water using an agent called a surfactant. The surfactant coats the oil droplet. The inner part of the coating "likes" oil and repels water. The outer part "likes" water and repels oil. That means that inside the oil droplet you get a pure oil environment despite water (kafirs) all around.

The "surfactant" role is by "interface" Muslims who are able to show secular moderate behavior among kafirs and Islamic behavior among Muslims. Or else the surfactant is aided by a layer of dhimmis who are as good as "interface Muslims" in providing the coating that protects the oil droplet. The women and small children and the Mullah are confined to that oil droplet. So the ultimate human result is a combination of structure of society (oil droplet) and control of women(the stay within the droplet)

RajeshA

shiv saar,

it would be interesting to know what kind of special circumstances exist within the oil droplet, and how the psychology of the child is affected due to them, the various dynamics in the family

1. between male child and father
2. between male child and mother
3. between male child and elder brothers
4. between male child and younger brothers
5. between male child and elder sisters
6. between male child and younger sisters

I've looked for some studies, but not really found any. May be somebody in the know can provide with some anecdotal evidence.

[RajeshA]

Cross-posting a post by shiv from "Boston Bombing Followup Thread" Thread

Officials: Hospitalized bombing suspect says he and brother acted alone,motivated by religion

If you insult Muslims it cannot be predicted when some angry person will act on his own and do something rash. But you cannot blame and entire religion or entire community for that.

In other words Muslims will act violent on their own, to protect their religion.

But they would not have acted on their own to protect Islam if they were not Muslims. Therefore when Muslims act "on their own" to protect Islam it is perfectly reasonable to blame the religion and not the entire community.

But when you blame the religion, someone in the community will get angry, and one of them might act violent on his own to protect the religion.

In order to stop this do not blame Islam no matter what.

[RajeshA]

Islam's Strength

As mentioned earlier, some of the strengths are

• 2. formal egalitarianism resulting in a strong planet-wide brotherhood viz-a-viz the non-believers
  4. cellular organization serving the virtual ideological framework
  5. aggressive protection of its ideological integrity

This allows Islam to be in constant war with the non-believers, without even having the others at war with Islam.

What do Islamics give as arguments for their violent behavior?

1. If there is an unprovoked attack on innocent civilians, then they say, "this can't be the work of Muslims. In Quran it says, the death of a single human, is the death of all mankind".
2. If there is an attack on security forces, then they say, "the religion is not at fault. It is individual Muslim groups who are angry and they are reacting."
3. If there is a continuing war on non-believers, then they say, "you have to look at the root causes why Muslim society is so angry with you."
4. If there is a retaliation from non-believers on those who committed the attacks, then they say, "This would only cause more Muslim youth to be radicalized".
5. If there is criticism of religion, then all Muslims the world over get agitated and start attacking the non-believers.

In short,

1. they undertake continuous harassment of innocents and expansion into their areas
2. they phonily disassociate ideology from unprovoked violence
3. they justify unprovoked violence as due to poverty, joblessness and other secular phenomena
4. they demand appeasement instead
5. they threaten against retaliation with more violence
6. they give sanctuary to those responsible for violence
7. they play the oppressed victim card when confronted
8. they act as apologists for any large scale attacks and give them justification as revenge
9. they don't let one hold the ideology responsible for the violence

Thus one can neither target the groups nor their ideology for any crimes and expect support! Anything spoken against Islam deserves Jihad, any action taken against Muslim groups deserves Jihad! But the problem does not lie in ideology, as Islam is the "religion of peace"!

This is not a complaint, simply an observation!

[RajeshA]

Oil Droplets & Child Nurturing in Islam (Cont.)

Posting some posts from the "Vested Interests in India for Giving In to Pak Blackmail" Thread

shiv

shiv saar,

it would be interesting to know what kind of special circumstances exist within the oil droplet, and how the psychology of the child is affected due to them, the various dynamics in the family

1. between male child and father
2. between male child and mother
3. between male child and elder brothers
4. between male child and younger brothers
5. between male child and elder sisters
6. between male child and younger sisters

I've looked for some studies, but not really found any. May be somebody in the know can provide with some anecdotal evidence.

There is a book that can throw a lot of light on this - if you can get it:
The Arab Mind - by Raphael Patai

[Altair]

I dont want to divert the thread but my point is Islam as a religion will be humiliated in the next space age.

There is lot of talk of manned missions from private space entrepreneurs, Tau-Zero foundation, 100YSS and others who have virtually unlimited funding to take the technology the next leap forward. Islam as a religion is not adaptable to technology.

I see a great divergence in the net 20 years where Islam will be ghettoized more than today to a very extreme level.

[RajeshA]

Altair ji,

I am skeptical of that position.

We have seen Islam adapt to Computers, to Internet, to Mobile Phones, and all the rest of technology one finds. Technology is not going to show Islam its limits.

In fact Islamics tell the faithful that all those who are inventing all these cool gadgets are in fact doing slavery for them, for Muslims. They tell the faithful not to be awed by innovations and technological progress, to look at them simply as tools for pursuing Islam's cause.

In a way, it is something similar to horny Arabs watching European girls and Pakis watching Bollywood flicks with Indian women dancing and singing. Does that reduce the Islamic hostility towards the others?

Some idiotic seculars think that because Pakistanis love Indian films and because Imran Khan is so loved by Hindoooo bimmen, that Pakis too would start loving India! That is the lowest standard of thinking one can have!

Similarly the Islamic attitude is to partake of all pleasures that the non-believer's world can provide and at the same time continue to curse the non-believer's world!

Islam's domain is the psychological, political and military! That is all that Islam cares about! No amount of technology, feminine beauty, wealth, consumer lifestyle, education facility, employment opportunities, etc. would distract the Islamic from the Islamic agenda of psychological, political and military dominance over the Kufr, even though the Islamic would relish all of these gifts.

"Whatever human can create and offer, Allah can provide immeasurably more", is the motto!

Pursuit of intellectual advancement is simply neither a priority nor something that can produce envy or desire.

At least that is how they wish to play this. It doesn't mean that at the ground level the Muslim is not swayed sometimes by all of this.

[RajeshA]

Continuing from a post by abhishek_sharma from the "TIRP" Thread

Wheelan, Charles Naked Statistics: Stripping the Dread from the Data

There is an academic literature on terrorists and suicide bombers— a subject that would be difficult to study by means of human subjects (or lab rats for that matter). One such book, What Makes a Terrorist, was written by one of my graduate school statistics professors. The book draws its conclusions from data gathered on terrorist attacks around the world. A sample finding: Terrorists are not desperately poor, or poorly educated. The author, Princeton economist Alan Krueger, concludes, “Terrorists tend to be drawn from well-educated, middle-class or high-income families.”

Why? Well, that exposes one of the limitations of regression analysis. We can isolate a strong association between two variables by using statistical analysis, but we cannot necessarily explain why that relationship exists, and in some cases, we cannot know for certain that the relationship is causal, meaning that a change in one variable is really causing a change in the other. In the case of terrorism, Professor Krueger hypothesizes that since terrorists are motivated by political goals, those who are most educated and affluent have the strongest incentive to change society. These individuals may also be particularly rankled by suppression of freedom, another factor associated with terrorism. In Krueger’s study, countries with high levels of political repression have more terrorist activity (holding other factors constant).

shaardula

imho, i tend to agree. irrespective of religion, religious fervor seems to be directly related to prosperity or aspiration to prosperity. being stickler to religious edicts is very very expensive in modern day world. it is. bulk of rabid evangelists are prosperous enough to have a lot of free time to think about this nonsense and have the financial means to live the "biblical/quranic/vedic/bauddhic/oshoist lifestyle", as god prescribed. faking poverty, rusticity, simplicity etc., is big business, that has made those who can provide this illusion very rich. at a certain level of prosperity, showing off that you are living upto the standards of good old traditions of a religion is a status symbol. i've gadi. i've bangla. i've bhakti. and more importantly, the money to buy these.

have seen jesuits, muslims and hindus for whom god is not a decoration or a bragging right but an integral part of their rustic simple lives. but these guys are all piss poor and miserable. not destitute, but miserable and spartan by circumstances, and not by paying an architect or a designer to recreate it.

It is no secret what the relationship is: Earning Islamic Capital

In India one sees many Indian Muslims who are very pious, very orthodox. That in fact is creation of Islamic capital which harms the Kufr, the Hindus, much less, than when Muslims receive secular education and are brought up in a more liberal environment, because then these Muslims have no Islamic capital and the chances for them to turn radical are much higher. So those pleading for more secular education for the Muslim youth need to keep this into consideration.

It doesn't mean that all Muslims receiving secular education would turn radical. As long as the Muslim is not confronted with the pressures of Islamic society, and remains integrated in Kufr society, he would of course remain "a productive member of the Kufr society", but it is easy to get disillusioned considering the many ills that also affect Kufr society, and then there is no telling how radical the Muslim may turn once he discovers the mosque and introspection tells him how little Islamic capital he possesses.

In such a situation, the probability is high that the "introspecting" Muslim would shift the blame for his lack of Islamic capital onto the Kufr society of which he had been a part, and act vengefully towards it.

[RajeshA]

Continuing from "TIRP" Thread

i have no objections Rajesh-ji*. But i just want to point out that the same applies to hindus in india and protestant evangelists in us. Unless people are fully aware who their working gods are, people tend to idolize false gods - be it allah, jehovah, booDa, or venkateshwara. Also want to point out, that some of these gods are sexier than others, booDa more than mahaveera, for example. any one who knows half as much will tell you that mahaveera and his descendants more closer to rationalism than booDa. allah and mohammad being the farthest from it all - much more rationalism and logic in village gods and neighbourhood shaamans than is their in islam. but must say, bulk of spirituality is all about the PR message not about spirituality itself.

allah & mohammad & all the associated piety around them have nothing to do with spirituality imho.

Earning Islamic Capital is not about spirituality.

It is about Social Acceptance, where the level of respect one receives from the others, especially those who decide about the other's status in society, is dependent on the earned Islamic Capital.

[RajeshA]

Oil Droplets & Child Nurturing in Islam (Cont.)

shiv

Why is that some people like the Tsaraev brothers who are caught in Boston bombings who are relatively educated, who can reason, feel that Islam is found on very strong foundation that they are ready to give up everything?
<snp>
Okay fine, if you think all muslim men like the freedom Islam gives to males in general to have N >1 wives and it fun to procreate, then what about women? what makes them think Quran is the best religion? a religion which looks down on them? is it fear? just thinking aloud.

It is the Islamic method of upbringing that instils into every child between age 1 and 5, long before formal education starts the idea that they are special. God made the world for Muslims. others (non Muslims) are bad and men are superior to women. Once that is instilled into every boy and girl by age five, nothing else will erase that and any new or different information only causes cognitive dissonance and anger and a tendency to stay with the earliest belief you have,

I think the biggest difference between Islam and other religions is upbringing and indoctrination into a belief of entitlement because they are Muslim and grievance that kafirs are spoiling things for them if they do not get what they want. If you tell your child that he is entitled to everything simply because he is Muslim and that if he can't get what he wants the fault is with Kafirs, and that women are inferior to men- it would be called a biased upbringing everywhere else. But not in Islam. Generations of spoiled brats who cannot be hauled up because of secularism and sensitivity to religion.

shiv

shiv ji, a corollary is not making sense.. i.e, how come nearing a billion kafir is not putting a risk on islam? so, either that thought is not correct or we don't have billion kafirs.

The answer is OT here. Are you referring to India?

If you are looking for 1 or 0 answers you are right. In truth not all Muslims carry those attitudes to the same degree. The upbringing in its strictest sense would do that, and if it was that effective there would be no kafirs at all today in any Islamic country. If it was ineffective there would be few Muslims. Its effectiveness can be judged by the fact that there are over 1 billion Muslims - a huge percentage of whom involve in going and killing others because Islam is at risk.

Percentage wise the number of Muslims killing others in the name of religion in the 1945 to 2013 time period is higher thn the number of people of other religions killing in the name of their religion. A few centuries ago Christianity probably held the record - but when it stopped, "secular" killers like Hitler, communism and Pol Pot/Idi Amin seemed to rule the roost.

Islam never disappeared from the list of causes - it has been there all the time and it is showing up.

I don't think anyone, not even Muslims can dispute that this is happening as can be judged by the social media reaction "Please let the Boston bomber not be Muslim" Well they were/are Muslim and did it for Islam. So the fact that people are killing for Islam is not in doubt. What has never ever been addressed as research is what it it about Islam that does this. My post merely cited reasons that I believe are true. I did not actually say that they are true for 100% of Muslim families 100% of the time.

In the absence of formal research percentages are difficult to compute. But empirically, at a global level it is evident that more Muslims are killing in the name of Islam than any other religious group.

[RajeshA]

Oil Droplets & Child Nurturing in Islam (Cont.)

Published on Apr 22, 2013
By Kirit Radia
Bomb Suspects' Mother Says Young Son Would Have Obeyed Older Brother: ABC News

The mother of the two men suspected of carrying out the Boston Marathon bombing says her younger son would have faithfully obeyed his older brother, a devout Muslim who investigators now fear may have become radicalized.

The older brother, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 26, had become an increasingly pius Muslim in recent years, partly at the urging of his mother, she said.

The younger son, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, 19, was a sophomore at UMass-Dartmouth where he had a reputation for partying and drugs.

The mother, Zubeidat Tsarnaeva, described Tamerlan as "a person of strong will," a "leader" who could influence people.

Tamerlan's influence was perhaps felt most by his younger brother Dzhokhar.

"They loved each other. What Tamerlan was said was law for Dzhokhar. That's how I raised them. What the elder brother says, the younger brother has to do. That is according to Islam," the mother told ABC News in a phone call today.

Tsarnaeva said she urged Tamerlan to embrace Islam in 2008, concerned about his drinking, smoking, and pursuit of girls. She said he began to read more about it on the internet.

What we learn:

1. Younger brother should faithfully obey the older brother.
2. Mothers do their part in making their sons live according to Islam.

[RajeshA]

Cerebro Islamus

Perhaps one should move on from "Psyche of the Islamic" to "Cerebro Islamus"

What we know is that in Muslim families, children are taught very early to have the highest of respect for Islamic customs, to abide by prescriptions, and to follow the chain of obedience: ulamā, tribal elder, father, elder brother, etc.

So from the earliest stages of life, a human is conditioned to think in Islamic "logic" of ḥarām, mubah, ḥalāl, makrūh, mustaḥabb, sawāb and farḍ: forbidden, neutral, permissible, desired, recommended, rewarding and duty.

Normally Non-Believers look at the world differently, where one is forced to think and even in childhood, the parents try to inculcate the habit of thinking of moderating one's desires, and try to tell the other why something is harmful and thus prohibited, and why is something expected from the child.

In the Islamic way, the child receives these categories and everything in the world comes neatly arranged in these categories.

So whereas all other humans when growing up try to think through an issue using logic, the Islamic would have only the habit of falling back into this categorical thinking.

As such often things Homo Sapien Sapiens take for granted about acting as per logic and logical ethics and willing to change one's opinion depending on the logic and data available is something completely alien to the 'Cerebro Islamus' because that is how he has been brought up from childhood itself and thus the neural pathways of the brain itself have developed differently.

For 'Cerebro Islamus', there an intimate dependency has been created between action and prescription, and as the prescription is Islam itself, the dependency of the mind to interpret reality is forged with Islam!

Everything that does not fit this model, is for the 'Cerebro Islamus' batil, a falsehood!

It is then indeed a challenge for 'Cerebro Islamus' to navigate the world of sciences, technology, professionalism, international business management, etc.. The way the neural pathways have formed do not suit the requirements of such logical and creative thinking.

[AbhiJ]

I have a question:If a Muslim lands on Mars or Moon(God forbid!), Which direction will he pray?

Muslim Astronaut in Space - Worship Problem

HOW do you pray facing Mecca five times a day when you are circling the Earth 16 times every 24 hours?
This is one of the problems facing Malaysian authorities as they prepare to send their first man into space.
There are others: how to hold the prayer position in zero gravity, ensure that only halal freeze-dried food is in your space cupboard and perform your ritual ablutions before worship?
They have all been answered by a team of Islamic scholars and scientists that has spent more than a year working on guidelines for the astronaut.
The Malaysian will travel to Russia's International Space Station in October, in exchange for a lucrative arms deal.
The Government hailed the mission as an important milestone but religious scholars questioned how a practising Muslim could accommodate worship with the demands of space travel.
The space station travels around the world at 27,000km/h, making Mecca a target in perpetual motion. With 16 orbits a day and five daily devotion sessions determined by times of sunrise and sunset, devout Muslim astronauts could find themselves chanting their prayers as many as 80 times in 24 hours.
Water is a valuable commodity in space, but Muslims are required to wash before each prayer session.
The holy month of Ramadan also falls during the mission.
All Muslims are required to abstain from food during daylight hours -- but what is daylight in space?
Only two Muslims have gone into space, Prince Sultan bin Salman of Saudi Arabia, who travelled on the US shuttle Discovery in 1985, and Anousheh Ansari, an Iranian-American space tourist, who went to the space station last year. Both had to work out their obligations on their own.
Malaysia insists, however, that maintaining Islamic beliefs "ismandatory for Muslims in every situation, time and place".
Mustafa Abdul Rahman, the head of the nation's Department of Islamic Development said: "Circumstances on the ISS that are different from circumstance on Earth are not an obstacle for an astronaut to fulfil a Muslim's obligations."
Two finalists remain from 10,000 applicants: Sheikh Muszaphar Shukor and Faiz Khaleed.
The winner will be told that he may choose to fast in space or make up for it when he returns. If an astronaut doubts that the food provided is halal, he "'should consume it only to the extent of restraining hunger".
On prayers to Mecca, however, the guidebook sidesteps. These should be performed, it says, "according to the capability of the astronaut".

[Altair]

Altair ji,

Islam's domain is the psychological, political and military! That is all that Islam cares about! No amount of technology, feminine beauty, wealth, consumer lifestyle, education facility, employment opportunities, etc. would distract the Islamic from the Islamic agenda of psychological, political and military dominance over the Kufr, even though the Islamic would relish all of these gifts.

RajeshA

Technology is visible in only wealthy arab nations capitals downtown like Dubai, Doha or Abu Dhabi. If we see the old areas even in the cities of Dubai, Abu Dhabi or Doha there are areas very much like lanes in any muslim area in any Indian city. Too much filth and poverty.

I can understand rich Sheikhs may travel to Space/Moon/Mars and relish the gifts but average abdul will still have to deal with his dirty donkey.
If we can prove that Islam is irrelevant in space or any other world, that is a significant statement.
Now if that happens can people(abdul) have second thoughts on the concept of Islam?

Altair

[RajeshA]

If we can prove that Islam is irrelevant in space or any other world, that is a significant statement.
Now if that happens can people have second thoughts on the concept of Islam?

I understand the sentiment.

At the moment the agenda of Islam is to usher in the dominance of Islam over each and every human being. I don't know what happens if aliens enter the mix!

May be some Mullahs would try to convert the aliens as well, in which case then Islam would take a new dimension over and above its current agenda!

However as things stand, an Islamic is not necessarily intimidated by technology. They may not indulge in sciences or develop technology, but they would not say no to taking a ride in a space-ship and looking for more regions to dominate. After all the universe is large, so Islam can theoretically set itself new missions.

Since we are discussing science fiction, perhaps you may like to look at the character of Abu 'Imam' al-Walid from the Chronicles of Riddick. The character does talk about his religion, I believe, in Pitch Black!

[RajeshA]

Islam's Strengths (Cont.)

• 15. nurturing of the male child into an egotistical personality convinced of his privilege, entitlement and superiority. These personality characterics are first developed in relation to the other gender, and then cultivated further into a general attitude towards the non-believers. (mentioned earlier)
• 16. indoctrinating the child making him/her psychologically dependent on prescriptive Islam from an early age and made to think only in terms of ḥarām, mubah, ḥalāl, makrūh, mustaḥabb, sawāb and farḍ: forbidden, neutral, permissible, desired, recommended, rewarding and duty.
• 17. inoculating the child at an early age against empathy, sympathy and mercy for the weak, when they are exposed to violence against animals, which they are often made to watch, e.g. during Eid.
• 18. brainwashing the child at an early age to hate the non-believer and enemy people. Often children are encouraged to take a lead in demonstrations to such an effect and similar terminology is used at home and in the neighborhood also.

[dada]

RajeshA

I know a person who used to chat a lot on yahoo until the rooms were shut down some months back. he shared some of his observations about muslims especially from indian hyderabad, muslims from delhi area . His chats revealed to him that these people(graduates,MBAs) read a lot of GLORY OF ISLAMIC HISTORY (all stuff in pure urdu !) .Infact internet ,email technology has been put to "good" use to disseminate such literature in their facebook circles which almost always include pakis as well !
ISLAM is really smart in putting everybodyelse & everything else as tools to further its own cause !

[RajeshA]

dada ji,

Indians and Islamics often see technology from two different sides of the coin/mirror - mostly Islamics understand technology as simply a medium, whereas Indians are fascinated by the 'how' - how it works!

[dada]

RajeshA

This points to a fundamental difference in their outlook. Islamic philosophy provides the "End" & everything else / everybody else are mere tools ,means to attain this END. Tools / means keep changing with time as technology evolve. 1400 yrs ago muslims considered "wielding swords" as the core skill , today the sword has been replaced by "AK Series guns" , tomorrow it will be something else ! But the Basic MINDSET has remained virtually same !

Interestingly everybody in the muslim world can be treated as tools to achieve the supremacist end !

Dont forget how muslims saw the boeing aircraft filled with passengers & fuel as a live bomb & used it to an devastating effect in 9/11 attack.what was the END ? what was the means ?
people who stubbornly hold "end ideas" control people "filled with means ideas" . It happens even in the business world !

[RajeshA]

people who stubbornly hold "end ideas" control people "filled with means ideas" . It happens even in the business world !

Interesting formulation! You're of course right about Islam.

Elaborated on the topic here.

[dada]

What are the Ends adopted / Means developed by the Western World ?
Note that West developed empirical / scientific method to develop the steam engine, machines, ships, military technology, the artillery etc
All these are machines ! nonliving systems which can be controlled-operated by trained people

What are the Ends adopted / Means developed by the Islamic World ?
Islamic world has developed the "metatechnology (the CULTURE)" to produce "younger generations which can be plentifully produced using its mentally caged female population" ! These people are mentally prepared to die for the larger cause of political islam !
I dont think islamic culture produce people ready to LIVE for islam ! It produces people ready to die for islam !

Understand this difference clearly. The war tools of islam are mainly living people not dead machines !
It has spreadout these tools far & wide through immigration both legal & illegal taking full advantage the loopholes in the system, need for politicians to capture power through vote banks ( as in indian west bengal, assam, european countries like germany , finland etc)

As Indians, What are our ends ? What are our means ?
Nobody else can decide for us. We have to decide that ourselves. We have to produce our own means !

What can China teach us in these matters ? if the 21st century is going to be the Asian century , let us start moving in that direction.

[Rishirishi]

You can live in this world to enjoy life or you can make it a mission to enter heaven.

Hindus, Buddhists etc do not have a clear concept of hell or heaven. They just want to learn to live in the best way. In Islam your life is defined by the rules of entering heaven.

[Theo_Fidel]

Rishi,

Every time you bring in hinduism you confuse the issue. JMT.

[ramana]

Agree. There is fundamental problem with Hindus. They bring in Hinduism as nandi droppings and cloud the issue. Its just unrestrainable enthusiasm or self hate.

Muslim self radicalize. Hindus self-hate and become deracinated!!!!


Same with Indians and other state residents. Indians bring in India and Indian issues even when discussing life or lack of it on Mars.

[RajeshA]

If I may say so,

there are two ways of looking at a mention of "Hinduism" in the subject of "Understanding Islamic Society".

1) From a third PoV, e.g. the Western PoV, where the two, Islam and Hinduism, are compared side by side, in which case one makes "Hinduism" into another object of observation, or

2) From the "Hindu" PoV, where one tries to understand Islam from the prism of "Hinduism", using "Hindu" categories, the way Rajiv Malhotra tried to understand Western Universalism through the prism of Dharma, using Dharmic categories, in which case one makes "Hinduism" into another prism for observation.

In principle, I don't think the second option is wrong, but not everyone has access to this prism, and as such it often ends up being the first option!

[Prem]

This is why i say educated Muhammadan is more dangerous than illiterate one as he/she has for good part escaped the virus and kept the big part of humanity intact. No on doubt that if Auranga had Nukes he would have used them to anihilate Indians.

[KLNMurthy]

Altair ji,

Islam's domain is the psychological, political and military! That is all that Islam cares about! No amount of technology, feminine beauty, wealth, consumer lifestyle, education facility, employment opportunities, etc. would distract the Islamic from the Islamic agenda of psychological, political and military dominance over the Kufr, even though the Islamic would relish all of these gifts.

RajeshA

Technology is visible in only wealthy arab nations capitals downtown like Dubai, Doha or Abu Dhabi. If we see the old areas even in the cities of Dubai, Abu Dhabi or Doha there are areas very much like lanes in any muslim area in any Indian city. Too much filth and poverty.

I can understand rich Sheikhs may travel to Space/Moon/Mars and relish the gifts but average abdul will still have to deal with his dirty donkey.
If we can prove that Islam is irrelevant in space or any other world, that is a significant statement.
Now if that happens can people(abdul) have second thoughts on the concept of Islam?

Altair

This is doubtful. Factor in the kabila concept where the abdul accepts privation as the price for the sheikh or kalifa having the resources to become a ghazi.

[RajeshA]

Cross-posting from "Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis" Thread

males in general to have N >1 wives and it fun to procreate, then what about women? what makes them think Quran is the best religion? a religion which looks down on them? is it fear? just thinking aloud.

Funny that you mention it. Had been dating a Tunisian girl, late twenties, single, living in a different country away from family, dresses in Western attire, open about premarital sex- you see all the trappings of being 'liberated'. Yet somehow when the question came to religion she was dogmatic- Islam is the best. She claimed to have left her ex-fiancee because he made a play at her cousin, but then she said because Islam says its OK for a man to have multiple wives. Trying to play with her mind, I asked her, if that's OK, why can't a woman have multiple men? And her expression was like I don't know what to say, how can this be possible.

The point is that somehow Islam saps the willingness to think. Even when confronted with evidence (or in the lady's case her personal revulsion to her ex-fiancee), people are unwilling to challenge dogma.

The problem is Cerebro Islamus!

It is perhaps too optimistic to think that Cerebro Islamus would be capable to think in a similar fashion in area of psychology, sociology, philosophy and politics, about life. Since childhood she may not have learnt to ever make fundamental queries about life!

In Islam there is zero philosophy. There is only theology.

[Agnimitra]

males in general to have N >1 wives and it fun to procreate, then what about women? what makes them think Quran is the best religion? a religion which looks down on them? is it fear? just thinking aloud.

Funny that you mention it. Had been dating a Tunisian girl, late twenties, single, living in a different country away from family, dresses in Western attire, open about premarital sex- you see all the trappings of being 'liberated'. Yet somehow when the question came to religion she was dogmatic- Islam is the best. She claimed to have left her ex-fiancee because he made a play at her cousin, but then she said because Islam says its OK for a man to have multiple wives. Trying to play with her mind, I asked her, if that's OK, why can't a woman have multiple men? And her expression was like I don't know what to say, how can this be possible.

The point is that somehow Islam saps the willingness to think. Even when confronted with evidence (or in the lady's case her personal revulsion to her ex-fiancee), people are unwilling to challenge dogma.

I also know Moslem women - even those violently opposed to Islamist regimes in their country - who still think Islam in its "true" form, or "basic" form, is better than anything else. They each have their own idealized version of what is the "true Islam". But even apart from that idealized form, there are some obvious problems that they can still accept due to brainwashing.

Sexually, Moslem women just take it for granted that men are polygamous by nature as set by God and jealously guard their social unit, while a woman who is polyamorous is a cause of fitna (social subversion). They just take it for granted that if their man cannot be satisfied on demand, then it is "understandable" (even though it makes them angry) that he may look elsewhere. One reasoning advanced by some Islamic scholars for the number "4" being set for max. wives is that any one woman is unavailable to her husband for approx. 1 out of 4 weeks in a month. So a substitute is justified if the menstrual periods can be so aligned - and to guarantee availability all year round, 4 wives will suffice. In Islamic societies, it is considered normal if a man takes another wife within a month of his wife's death or divorce. I know a case in Iran where a man took a second wife because after his first wife's first normal delivery, her tunnel of love wasn't taut enough anymore.

One may wonder how such a shameless reason could be openly cited. The reason is that it is considered somewhat "manly" and "virile" to have a great sex appetite. An Arabic proverb boasts that just as Romans are addicted to wealth and Persians have a great appetite for power, similarly the Arabs are mad for romantic/sexual love. In non-Arab Islamic societies, the women gossip with wide eyes and giggles about the Arab Man who is extremely virile, generous, jealous, and short tempered. The typical guttural phonetics of the Arabic language are considered sexy. Aphrodisiac foods are widespread in the Middle East. Etc. (OTOH, the Hindu is described as one who runs away from women).

So even though the man is depicted as one who is "naturally" lustful and "needs" regular sexual release, Moslem women just accept it as a fact of nature that must be "managed" - and shariah gives the laws according to which it can be best managed. The idea of man's essential nature and beingness is interesting -

In Qur'anic Arabic, a common word used for Mankind is "insaan", which signifies "attachment", i.e. man is someone who is characterized by attachment, which best expresses itself as intimacy (uns). The other word used for the mass of humans is "khalq", which means a creature. A third word is "bashar", which just means humanity and signifies a bringer of good news in the form of revelation. In Sanskrit, the word for Man is mAnava, which means descended from Manu - a word that signifies "thinking, intelligence, wise", etc. There is a noticeable difference in the spiritual "genealogy" of Mankind in Islam versus Indic systems - in one he is essentially base, to whom good news of salvation is brought, and transfers his attachments from the earthly to the heavenly; in the other, he is the descendant of an intelligent being.

Another thing is that Moslem women (and children) are taught to love and adore the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and to actually cry for him, shed tears and wail for his sacrifices and suffering. They are taught this from a young age. Attachment to the Prophet (ishq e rasool) is a great blessing to have, and they are commended for it from a very young age. I've seen westernized Iranian women who hate their regime cry to the Prophet for help, shedding tears.

Another very important brick in the wall is the constant brainwashing about the ludicrous, disgusting or indignantly unjust aspects of religions other than Islam. This has a big effect, especially on women. While Islam is considered the most modern, globalizing, practicable religion, others are either "ethnic" religions (like Hinduism), or deviant and not-clear-cut religions. Most of all, other religions don't have a clear-cut law on life and daily living. E.g., Uncircumcised men's penises are full of germs, while circumcised penises are scientifically shown to reduce the risk of even HIV - a sign from God - this is taught in classrooms in Islamic countries. Even among the circumcised men, Islamic men perform istinja and other purificatory practices after excretory functions, or after sex. In the mind of women brought up in that culture, all this makes a Moslem man a far cleaner sexual partner - apart from his healthy, manly sex appetite. Even if you do sleep with an adventurous Moslem lady, don't be surprised if she tries to spot check you during pillow talk on some of the shariah points around sexual hygiene.

Because that is the power of brainwashing - its not a reasoned religious stance, it is an implant in that part of the brain that feels disgust, rage, fear and other such emotions. It is not so much associated by what is "seen", as by how something is "named" or "heard" as named. It is psychosomatic in its action. So if you're non-Moslem, doesn't matter if you're reasonably hygienic from an external scientific standpoint, you could still be suspect. Moreover - like the Indian caste-purity practices of shuchi - there are two concepts of hygiene in Islam - kaseef (n. kesaafat) and najis (n. nejaasat). Kaseef is physically dirty, which can be handled by scientific hygiene. However, najes is a different non-physical kind of dirtiness - that which is not visible to the naked eye. It doesn't just encompass microscopic organisms, but also something spiritual. Non-Moslems are najis. That's why historically in Islamist societies the dhimmis are sometimes treated like untouchables - separate drinking fountains, need to keep a distance in the bazaar, etc. Islamic shariah has all the rudiments of the practice of untouchability in it.

[RajeshA]

Moreover - like the Indian caste-purity practices of shuchi - there are two concepts of hygiene in Islam - kaseef (n. kesaafat) and najis (n. nejaasat). Kaseef is physically dirty, which can be handled by scientific hygiene. However, najes is a different non-physical kind of dirtiness - that which is not visible to the naked eye. It doesn't just encompass microscopic organisms, but also someone spiritual. Non-Moslems are najis. That's why historically in Islamist societies the dhimmis are sometimes treated like untouchables - separate drinking fountains, need to keep a distance in the bazaar, etc. Islamic shariah has all the rudiments of the practice of untouchability in it.

Sikhs in Nankana Sahib

[Agnimitra]

^^^ RajeshA ji,

Just in case anyone suggests that this example in Pakistan is due to "Hindu influence" (Sooth Asian Moslems blame Islamic caste system and Ashrafism on Hindu influence also) then one must point out similar practices in other Islamic countries like Iran and parts of the Arab world. In Iran, untill the 18th century under the Qajars, Zoroastrians were treated as untouchables, especially in places like Mashhad. Iranian Armenians were also treated that way, supposedly because since Russian Christians don't wash their arses, Armenian Christians born and brought up in Iran are also hygienically suspect. So at the bazar they should not directly come and touch the fruits and vegetables, but should stand aside and ask. That's how it used to be until fairly recently.

[RajeshA]

Carl ji,

yes, thank you.

That can be valuable information about general racism and discrimination in Islam viz-a-viz the unbeliever.

[ramana]

And the Red tumbler is for the Mushy?

[shiv]

1. Younger brother should faithfully obey the older brother.
2. Mothers do their part in making their sons live according to Islam.

Raphael Patai had made several notable observations about Arab child rearing and Arab society, many of which seem to have been internalized into Islam.

One is the fact that male children stay in female company for the first 4-5 years of life. Suckling may continue longer than usual to comfort the child. This might explain the ridiculous Saudi injunction about suckling from your lactating female colleague to make your relationship legitimate rather than adulterous.

But after 5 the child is thrown into male company where size and age rules. The general rule in Arab society, and, it apears to me, Islamic society is "Me against you, me and you against out father/neighbour. Me you and neighbour against the next village. Me you and our village against someone else."

The younger brother must obey older" is probably not Islamic except that the physically larger elder brother is charged by a mother who has too many babies look after to look after his toddler brother and instructs the toddler that he must obey his older brother.

Once boys (over the age of 5) are thrown into male company they will be dominated and ruled by physically superior older boys and men. This can many bullying, cruelty and I guess in some cases sodomy. The boy, traumatized, must cope on his own until he becomes physically able to do that to someone younger and smaller than him. These male-male relationships probably explain why so many Mughal kings were deposed by sons.

The other Arab trait that has been imported directly into Islam is the honor system. For a summary of what I gleaned from Raphael Patai as seen among Pakis please look at the chapter (5) on Pakistani psyche in my e book. Start reading from page 46 for the summary. Particularly look at the sections that deal with "honor and dignity " and "disputes and mediation". Also look at the next chapter (ch 6), women (and minorties) in Pakistan - which has some general observations of how women are treated by Islamic laws n Islamic Pakistan.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/EBOOKS/pfs.pdf

Pakistan is such a valuable nation because they have tried to distil pure Islam at the expense of everything else. If Pakistani behaviour is NOT Islamic behaviour, I would like some Islamic leader to say it. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT YET Pakistani behaviour does seem to indicate model Islamic behaviour.

[shiv]

males in general to have N >1 wives and it fun to procreate, then what about women? what makes them think Quran is the best religion? a religion which looks down on them? is it fear? just thinking aloud.

You only need to subjugate and intimidate one woman and bring up her sons and daughters in a fully Islamic way. The girls are also brainwashed about their duties and are acutely aware of punishments if they fail to say and do what is right - and this is done from a very young age - less than 5 years. Girls are acutely are acutely are of their status as wives or mothers and that this is what God intended and they cannot question that.

Once you instil certain beliefs very deeply into a child as the child's first memories and earliest knowledge, it is difficult to erase without causing great discomfort from cognitive dissonance. For the kind of disgust and irritation that cognitive dissonance causes one needs to think of something that is deeply taboo in one's own mind - like sex with one's mother. It is a thought that causes discomfort and anger if someone suggests it. Cognitive dissonance at work. That gives an indication of how deeply held beliefs about Islam cannot be shaken easily even for girls.

Islam has been deeply knowledgeable about psychology and has used it well - better than many other religions. Unfortunately all religious knowledge has been dismissed by secular science as rubbish but unless psychology and application of child psychology and adult psychology in religion is studied no one will ever understand how Islam works. There are few studies available. Everyone is either disinterested or afraid.

[brihaspati]

shiv ji,
to an extent "secular" science has dismissed religious knowledge perhaps for very similar reasons as some among us try to insist that it is possible for a Muslim to be "secular". Strictly phrased, the question more rigorously is "is it possible for a human to be both Muslim and secular?"

When we use the more double-edged "Muslim can be secular", we are trying to consciously make a counter brainwashing that even if one has found himself born into a Muslim family, he/she can still disassociate from that circumstantial label. The argument goes that if we do not make such a claim - we are effectively reinforcing the Islamic's claim of Islam and secular behaviour/thought process being mutually exclusive.

I am not personally a great fan of this line - for it does not work. When it does work, it works not because of the power of the idea - but because it is backed up by coercion and counter punishment threats.

[brihaspati]

The psychology of mass manipulation by coercion is very well understood in "secular" societies. It is used freely and openly whenever the state coterie in power or the class concerned - feel threatened in their continued enjoyment of state power. "Sceintific" progress happened in western Europe not out of some great anti-religious urge for human liberties, but through the needs of imperial economies which found the prevalent religious controls in the way of mobilization of nations towards imperialistic ambitions - as obstacles.

Only those aspects of the religious structure were weakened that had previously claimed control or share over state power, but the values remained practically unaltered in other spheres. Hence the state forms and religious bodies external forms changed from the Greek to the Roman to Christian to modern, but the essential methods by which the populace were coerced into beliefs and Stockholm syndromes remained the same - whether it was the Roman justice system or Catholic inquisition or Constitutional monarchical Britain or Nazis or Russian Communists.